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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Now that OS 4 is final...
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hatschi 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 20:22:59
#161 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@pavlor

Quote:
@takemehomegrandma
That is why you want to call MorphOS AmigaOS - this name is very valuable for you.


Personally I have never met any Morphos users who want to call "Morphos" "AmigaOS".
Morphos=Morphos, 'nuff said.

Apart from that, the Amiga brand-name is much less valuable than you might think.

Last edited by hatschi on 02-Feb-2007 at 08:24 PM.

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nzv58l 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 20:31:18
#162 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Oct-2003
Posts: 1640
From: Michigan

@takemehomegrandma

I think the original code does matter. After all Amiga OS is Amiga OS. If you look at the original code you will see things that can be done better and things that can not be improved on. If you start from scratch, your just have less eyes on it and just create new problems. If you keep on making copies of an original, the copies are never as good as the real thing.

Sorry, I do not care about MOS and actually care more for AROS than MOS, but I am on a predominatly OS4 site. You will not see me on a MOS site and I still do not bash MOS. I really do not care if this is better than that or whatever. All I really care about is OS4. I have an A1, I do not run MOS and could care less about it. I am looking forward to the potential that OS4 has and I believe that OS4 is the future. I do not care too much about 15 year old software, but I am interested in new software. Anyone can find advantages in MOS and AOS over each other. It doesn't really make one better than the other.

I would hope that MOS and OS4 and AROS could get along and we do at times, but lots of this stuff is really counterproductive. We are all siblings of the same mother which is the Classic Amiga OS. Amiga is a good role model, but any parent wants their children to grow up to become something a little better than they are. With Amiga it's going to be tough as the Amiga was far beyond anything that was out at the time. Beethovens son never grew to be a Beethoven. For this reason I think OS4 has the right strategy. It is not trying to be the old Amiga, it is trying to be a modern and effecient OS with parts of the Classic still present. I feel that MOS and AROS are spending too much time trying to be thier parent, when they sould be looking to become themselves. That is my own opinion.

I have never used MOS or much other than tried to use AROS. I did have a classic though, and I can definitly say that I actually prefer the AmigaOS4 experience over the classic. Things I enjoy doing without are the NTSC/PAL issues and finding a monitor that works with it. OS 4 is also much more stable than the old Amiga too.

I love my classic Amiga and I love my OS4, but can't we get on with being productive rather than bashing everyone elses choice. Let's get some cross development tools out there and benifit the whole community rather than having these stupid, senseless piddle matches.

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Cheese 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 21:05:17
#163 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 312
From: Unknown

@nzv58l

Ehm, I thought it was widely known OS4 isn't based on the original AOS sources too? I'm pretty sure I read the Friedens stating this as well + some other posts. Don't ask me for links, but I'm sure others can help out here.

_________________
x86/MorphOS 4.0

"Delving into the past can be a dangerous exercise." -hyperionmp

"I've been a supporter of "REACTION" GUI because is an Amiga OS thing." -Snuffy

"I personally prefer a vision of do'ers and makers rather than

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pavlor 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 21:05:29
#164 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9373
From: Unknown

@hatschi

Quote:
Personally I have never met any Morphos users who want to call "Morphos" "AmigaOS".


In my country (Czech republic) this is a public opinion of some pegasos users. On the other hand, if they want tell Windows users how powerful MorphOS is (and it is), they simply can't say: "I have Pegasos with MorphOS", because nobody cares. But if they say: "I have 1 GHz Amiga", that wakes up attention.

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wegster 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 21:10:08
#165 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

Wow, I see 'the name argument' has now even argued that 'a PC doesn't run Windows only' etc. Well, yes, it generally does at this point, much like people may ask for a Band-Aid instead of an 'adhesive bandage.' The term PC no longer means what it did when they were first introduced, and is generally accepted by most people in this century to mean 'a system running Windows.' In this case, what started as a secondary meaning has overtaken the original meaning through popular use and acceptance, including in the industry itself. So what?

A definition for you, although if you really want you can surely find others..

"(Personal Computer) In contrast to the more generic definition above, PC typically refers to an x86-based desktop or laptop computer, almost all of which run under Windows. PC hardware and operating systems are primarily governed by Intel and Microsoft; however, there are numerous other strong influences. The PC represents the world's largest computer base. More than a billion of them are connected to the Internet, with shipments of new PCs exceeding a quarter million units per year.
"

RE: AROS, MOS, AOS, 'the name' etc...again, who cares? Or, at least in the context it seems to be coming across as in parts of this thread. Not being derived from source can have technical disadvantages, if compatibility is desired, as some system functions may have undocumented side effects programs rely on, or not be documented at all, so be difficult or take longer to reproduce without source. Having said that, that doesn't make it impossible. I've reverse engineered programs via network dumps, Dennis reverse engineered the A500 in his minimig, and it seems MOS' compatibility may be better than OS4s, or at least is certainly comparable. Claiming one is necessarily 'inferior' based solely on the argument of source access or not is a losing argument. Having or not having may account for some additional ease or difficulties, but is in no way guaranteeing superiority or inferiority by itself.

Myself, I _much_ prefer Gaim, Fire, or even Trillian over AOL Instance Messenger, or Yahoo's IM client, OpenOffice over MS Office, as well as other preferences of projects that have had no source access.

While there may (or may not be) an advantage in the Amiga name tied to a specific OS for marketing and sales purposes, it does not affect the end results of these OSes at this time, and obviously different people have preferences towards each.

Personally, I support Hyperion at this point, but I could also see worse things happening (for the consumers) than if both OS4 and MOS were to become open sourced, and perhaps all 3 OSes managed to agree upon a unified API. Unlikely, but then again, so is OS5 or ever seeing truly inexpensive 'special' hardware for OS4...




_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

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nzv58l 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 21:14:46
#166 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Oct-2003
Posts: 1640
From: Michigan

@Cheese

Oh no! Not the original code. I guess I will have to uninstall it now and wait for MOS to be ported to the A1 before I ever use it again! I will now have to hold a candle light vidil and fast for 30 days < I am not serious here>



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Cheese 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 21:21:16
#167 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 312
From: Unknown

@nzv58l

ehm? :)

_________________
x86/MorphOS 4.0

"Delving into the past can be a dangerous exercise." -hyperionmp

"I've been a supporter of "REACTION" GUI because is an Amiga OS thing." -Snuffy

"I personally prefer a vision of do'ers and makers rather than

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nzv58l 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 21:26:25
#168 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Oct-2003
Posts: 1640
From: Michigan

@wegster

I wouldn't necessarily want all OS's to share the same API as they probably all have their own advantages, but I would like there to be enough tools to test and allow a piece of software to be ported between the platforms easily.

As far as Open Office, I have used both quite a bit. I use MS Office at work, but at home I use Open Office. MS office comes up quicker, but once the program starts it is about the same. So I would say that MS office is a little better. However, I would not say it is a couple of hundred dollars better. Also, I have not found a good replacement for Outlook that can interface with Outlook(Not the express one, but the pro one).

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COBRA 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 21:37:08
#169 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Cheese

Quote:
Ehm, I thought it was widely known OS4 isn't based on the original AOS sources too?


You thought wrong. Exec is pretty much the only thing rewritten from scratch and not based on the original sources.

Btw what a silly discussion.

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Cheese 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 21:54:06
#170 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 312
From: Unknown

@COBRA

Are you sure? I might be mistaken ofcourse, but I thought that porting most of AOS code was too much hassle to port (being bound to the classic hw/coded in 68k assembler/etc/whatever) so they had to start from scratch as well for the most part. And iirc one of the OS4 coders (one of the Friedens?) stated they didn't have full access to the sources. But as I said, I'm short on actual links :)

_________________
x86/MorphOS 4.0

"Delving into the past can be a dangerous exercise." -hyperionmp

"I've been a supporter of "REACTION" GUI because is an Amiga OS thing." -Snuffy

"I personally prefer a vision of do'ers and makers rather than

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Srbin 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 21:54:14
#171 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Dec-2004
Posts: 407
From: Serbia

@cHaOs667

Quote:
I pity you. Never heard of MacOS X and Linux (and many others)?


Ofcourse i did. So? I don't have the money for buying mac, nor the place to buy s/w for it. Linux? I did try it, it is fine but again; i can't buy s/w for it.

wine project; i started (as i remember) Counter Strike and got sound, no image. The second game didn't give me anything. So, i have to stick with windows.
Not to mention that i am end user and i have no intensions of learning how linux works. I am not interested in it, i know how win and amiga works, that's fine for me.

Quote:
*rofl* MOS is the dominant amigaos clone because there are only 2 clones on the market! The never finished AROS and MOS *lol*


So, your amiga religion says you will use only os4, no matter if mos or aros or any other clone is better, faster, cheaper, have more s/w for it....

Interesting thinking...

Well, i am not sticking to name or brands. I will use what gives me most. I am glad we have some competition now; we see mos, os4, aros. May the best man win

_________________
May the force be with you...

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COBRA 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 21:58:03
#172 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Cheese

IIRC there were some 3.9 binaries they did not get the sources for. As I said exec is the only major OS component which was redone from scratch.

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itix 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 22:05:50
#173 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@nzv58l

Quote:

I think the original code does matter. After all Amiga OS is Amiga OS. If you look at the original code you will see things that can be done better and things that can not be improved on. If you start from scratch, your just have less eyes on it and just create new problems. If you keep on making copies of an original, the copies are never as good as the real thing.


I doubt it matters much because when coding MorphOS you can always compare functionality to the original Kickstart 3.1 implementation. Especially when MorphOS was developed on PowerUp Amigas where Kickstart ROM is available to MorphOS. For example if new intuitionpcc seemed to break old programs developer could disable intuitionppc module and try with the original C= intuition. It is not difficult really.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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Srbin 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 2-Feb-2007 22:06:59
#174 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Dec-2004
Posts: 407
From: Serbia

@pavlor

Quote:
hey simply can't say: "I have Pegasos with MorphOS", because nobody cares. But if they say: "I have 1 GHz Amiga", that wakes up attention.


My friend who has pc, is end user and was never interested in amiga, now knows about os4/mos problems (he became interested a few months ago). And as an end user, he tells me that name is not important; use mos if it is better, and still call pegasos as amiga.

If i buy efika, i will call it amiga to ppl who learned or even didn't hear about it. As long as it runs either mos or os4 or both, it is amiga spirit and amiga s/w in a box.

And please, stop poluting those legal stuff. Who cares about it? Let REAL lawers take care about IP, none of us know what is happening behind the door.

_________________
May the force be with you...

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pixie 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 3-Feb-2007 9:28:44
#175 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2717
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@jkirk
Imagine I have AROS imagine that due to it being no different of AmigaOS I call it my myAmiga, then what? I'm not selling, I'm not even distributing it, is Amiga Inc going to my house?

One was given the legal practice of selling a good under one name, but not on how is perceived by the costumers.. and what do you have her but costumers saying their OS is theirAmiga?

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

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pavlor 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 3-Feb-2007 9:47:47
#176 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9373
From: Unknown

@Srbin

For you is amiga more style rather than a trademark. I admit, that your angle of view is valid.
What is amiga today?
Narrow definition: computers sold or licenced by Amiga.Inc.
Wide definition: All what looks as amiga, is friendly for use as amiga and is aware of amiga tradition.

With this definition, I can say that pegasos is amiga.

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Srbin 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 3-Feb-2007 11:00:17
#177 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Dec-2004
Posts: 407
From: Serbia

@pavlor

Quote:
For you is amiga more style rather than a trademark. I admit, that your angle of view is valid.


YES, you took the words out of my mouth. English is not my native, most of the time i cannot express myself. But that is the point; amiga is user friendly, fast, funny and easy to use computer. Trademark is not important to me.

Unfortunatelly
1; i have no money for pegasos, but i will buy efika if i find the way putting it into laptop case
2; few or (maybe even) many developers doesn't want to make mos/aros port of their s/w (epistila, dopus...). Are they paid by ainc to not do it? (new conspiracy theory)

_________________
May the force be with you...

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elwood 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 3-Feb-2007 11:39:54
#178 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 3427
From: Lyon, France

@Cheese

I confirm that a lot of OS4 is based on OS3.1 sources.
3.1 not 3.9 that H&P kept gealously.

Last edited by elwood on 03-Feb-2007 at 11:40 AM.

_________________
Philippe 'Elwood' Ferrucci
Sam460 1.10 Ghz
AmigaOS 4 betatester
Amiga Translator Organisation

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gary_c 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 3-Feb-2007 12:16:24
#179 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@cHaOs667

Quote:
AmigaOS 4 is the evolution of the original AmigaOS. MOS and AROS are only clones. Nothing more and nothing less.

A clone is an exact duplicate, or intended to be as close as possible. There's no such intention with MorphOS. With AROS too I think it started out as a reimplementation but no doubt will find its own path forward. Of course there is naturally some degree of similarity in order to run old applications (in the case of MorphOS at least) and because of the backgrounds and values of the designers. But these OSs are evolving in their own directions with no particular concern about remaining similar to AmigaOS.

It seems you are trying to draw a picture in which AmigaOS shines more brightly, illuminated by a trademark (whose battery seems to be running low), and MorphOS and AROS, as "only clones," are dimmer images off in the shadows. Fine, it's your picture if that's what you like to draw, but it bears little resemblance to reality. All three projects are equally valid and each has its own values and qualities, strengths and weaknesses, etc.

-- gary_c

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zukakakina.com - themes.tikiwiki.org

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jkirk 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 3-Feb-2007 15:59:07
#180 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2005
Posts: 3349
From: Georgia (usa)

@pixie

Quote:
Imagine I have AROS imagine that due to it being no different of AmigaOS I call it my myAmiga, then what? I'm not selling, I'm not even distributing it, is Amiga Inc going to my house?


just because you can do this without getting sued don't make it legal. i can create backups of my dvd and vhs movies and not get sued but is that legal?

_________________
Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

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