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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Now that OS 4 is final...
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WOSPUPOS4 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 11:06:30
#41 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Posts: 220
From: Unknown

Quote:

Hagbard_Celine wrote:
@Rogue

Quote:
Somehow I get the impression that you think I am a complete idiot.


No, not at all. I think you did a great job on OS4. But I cannot understand why you leave us out in the rain. We payed a huge amount of money to buy stuff where your OS can possibly run on, but we get nothing, no prerelease, nada. I (and many others) are just desperately waiting for updates, and the only thing that comes from your site is "We are working on it".

And all those statements about releasing a Classic version the same time as the AOne version comes out, are now just plain lies, because you simply do not care about Classics.

It really makes me angry to see how you treat the users that made it possible to even think about an OS4. If we wouldnt have supported that platform by putting 1000 of Euros in it for Expansion, you wouldnt have sold any of those really cool games, and there wouldnt be a need to develop a PPC OS.

But well, you have your own opinion about that, and I do have to accept it, tho I cannot see this as a wise step.


HEY! Now that was totaly uncalled for.

I too am waiting for the classic version but saying that Hyperion doesnt care about the classic version is just as stupid as eating babies. Offcource they care or else they would have dropped it long ago (at the time the A1 version booted).

And the plan from the begining was to release a version for the CPPC and the mythological A1-A1200 combo card thingy. That was scrapped and when eyetech got the deal to make the A1 things shifted to making the A1 version first and then a short while later (within a year) release the classic version.
It has never been said they would be released at the same time.

I for one is grateful they still invest time and money to give the classic comunity a chance to use a new PPC native OS on our old hardware.

One CAN question the choise of not releasing a prerelease on the classic like the A1 but that is IMHO the only thing.
Im just happy that maybe 2007 will be the year my BPPC will stretch its back and get to work full time for the first time ever.

And for the price i dont realy care. I will buy it at any cost

Last edited by WOSPUPOS4 on 11-Jan-2007 at 11:11 AM.

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polka. 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 11:17:20
#42 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@WOSPUPOS4

Quote:
Im just happy that maybe 2007 will be the year my BPPC will stretch its back and get to work full time for the first time ever.


Do you have any idea which graphic cards will be supported? BVision or Mediator with Voodoo? How do those two compare? I read somewhere that there will be only emulation-68k drivers for the Mediator. Will that seriously affect performance compared to a BVision? Any idea if Symbios-SCSI on BPPC will be supported?

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Hagbard_Celine 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 11:20:24
#43 ]
Member
Joined: 20-Sep-2004
Posts: 48
From: Germany, somewhere West

@Yabba

First of all, I am not insulting Rogue for not developing Hardware. I'm not insulting anyone, to be honest.

Hell, you can't even argue and show up arguments here on Aw.net. Call the government, democracy is dead!

Why do you want me to play the game Amigans played for the last ten years? Just sit there and accept everything that is coming? I wont, and if something is not right, then I'll say what I think. I wasnt going into any persoanl attacks, and never will.

But I think asking why they are doing this stuff ist still allowed, init?

So give me a break Yabba. Just by my statements, Rogue won't leave the Amiga Community

Well well, I'm out, guess you can't argue with guys on aw.net about OS4. Sad enough

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WOSPUPOS4 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 12:01:32
#44 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Posts: 220
From: Unknown

Quote:

polka. wrote:
@WOSPUPOS4

Quote:
Im just happy that maybe 2007 will be the year my BPPC will stretch its back and get to work full time for the first time ever.


Do you have any idea which graphic cards will be supported? BVision or Mediator with Voodoo? How do those two compare? I read somewhere that there will be only emulation-68k drivers for the Mediator. Will that seriously affect performance compared to a BVision? Any idea if Symbios-SCSI on BPPC will be supported?


The last time i heard something from a classic betatester was that no support for the mediator was done yet (but is/was planned). BUT the 68k Elbox driver worked fine. The same goes for the Symbios-SCSI. It one of the drivers that has held back the classic version. Think it was rogue who said so last year of something. But it is planned to be supported.

BVision has ppc native driver version i think.

Rogue can give much better answers i guess

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 12:03:37
#45 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@Hagbard_Celine

Quote:
But I cannot understand why you leave us out in the rain.


Please define "leave us in the rain"?

Quote:
We payed a huge amount of money to buy stuff where your OS can possibly run on, but we get nothing, no prerelease, nada. I (and many others) are just desperately waiting for updates, and the only thing that comes from your site is "We are working on it".


Well, it's not like you paid this amount to Hyperion, or that you did pay it specifically to run OS 4. I think you have probably been running 3.x for quite a while on it now.

But, what exactly do you expect? If it ain't done yet, it isn't done yet. Plain and simple. We cannot make a pre-release if important parts of the system are still missing.

Quote:
And all those statements about releasing a Classic version the same time as the AOne version comes out, are now just plain lies, because you simply do not care about Classics.


Oh please, not that "you have been lying" again. We clearly stated we want to release the classic version SHORTLY AFTER the AmigaOne version. Besides, any statement done by Hyperion (or me for the matter) are purely statements of intentions. Some times this works out, most of the time it doesn't.

This has nothing to do with "care about the Classics", that is ridiculous. If that where the case we wouldn't even bother with a classic version at all.

Quote:
It really makes me angry to see how you treat the users that made it possible to even think about an OS4.


While I appreciate the existence of classic users, I would like to point out that what made OS 4 possible is the relentless working of an excellent group of people that worked their backsides off to develop, test, and translate the product and a management that has raised literally hundred of thousands of Euros to fund it. If it hadn't been for them, you wouldn't even have anything to complain about. *I* am as much a classic user (or rather, was until I got my AmigaOne) as you are.

So, how do I "treat" you? I inform you that the classic version should be coming out this quarter because someone asked the question. You'd rather have me ignore such questions and say the f-word? I can do that too, if you feel better then. It would certainly make ME feel better.

Quote:
But well, you have your own opinion about that, and I do have to accept it, tho I cannot see this as a wise step.


It isn't a wise step to wait until a product is finished before you actually put it out? Give me a break.

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 12:10:38
#46 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@polka.

Quote:
Do you have any idea which graphic cards will be supported? BVision or Mediator with Voodoo? How do those two compare? I read somewhere that there will be only emulation-68k drivers for the Mediator. Will that seriously affect performance compared to a BVision? Any idea if Symbios-SCSI on BPPC will be supported?


Permedia2-based addon cards will be supported in any case (BVision/CVision). Prometheus support is already in, I don't know about the Mediator, that might or might not come. Likey the 68k pci library will still work (in non-MMU mode).

Regarding SCSI, the CyberStorm SCSI is supported but the Blizzard is not yet. I think someone (sg2) started a driver but had to put it on hold for the work on the other IDE/SCSI drivers.

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Rogue 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 12:16:45
#47 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@Yabba

Thanks for that

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Yabba 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 12:22:01
#48 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jan-2004
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@Hagbard_Celine

Quote:
First of all, I am not insulting Rogue for not developing Hardware. I'm not insulting anyone, to be honest.


Basic rule of human interaction: If someone feels insulted or not does not really depend on the one uttering the insult. You may have not meant it as an insult, but if someone said this to me 'I do not and never will understand why you software guys believe that Hardware falls from heaven.' I would be more than insulted, considering the efforts I am putting into this.
And yes, you may feel insulted by me tell you this, but honestly, I don't care. Thats a looong way from claiming that you did nothing wrong.

Quote:
Why do you want me to play the game Amigans played for the last ten years? Just sit there and accept everything that is coming?


What do you expect from us? Magically double the team? People are working as hard as thet can, while your only contribution is smart ass comments on aw.net. Don't you think you can do something a little more productive? Like figuring out how to assist perhaps???

Quote:
But I think asking why they are doing this stuff ist still allowed, init?


There are a heap load of ways to ask this without insulting people. And claiming that Rogue lied to you isn't really a question either. So with some perspective, perhaps you should go back to your post and figure out exactly where I should find your neutral question?

Quote:
So give me a break Yabba. Just by my statements, Rogue won't leave the Amiga Community


I wont speak for Rouge of course, but it is exactly people like you who had me abandon work on IBrowse for extended periods of time. Many times! Or perhaps, I should say post like yours. Because my only view of you is through your posts, but I am pretty sure you are a good guy after all. I just have a huge problem with the way some people express their feelings.

Quote:
Well well, I'm out, guess you can't argue with guys on aw.net about OS4. Sad enough


It is even more sad that people like you don't understand the damage you are doing. If all that you want is coming here to have an argument then get the hell out. I am not saying that you cannot have a discussion, but it seems that some people think it is their right to have arguments left and right with people without accepting the consequences.

Perhaps 'ask not what the aos4 team can do for you - ask what you can do for the aos4 team' is food for thought? After all, this is _exactly_ how I got in touch with the original AMosaic developers. And that gave you IBrowse. Exactly the same way I got in touch with Andrija regarding AmiSSL, and that gave you AmiSSL2 and AmiSSL3. I don't remember how I got in touch with Rouge regarding AOS4 but I guess it was similar.

regards,
Stefan

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nicholas 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 12:46:17
#49 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Dec-2004
Posts: 1536
From: Unknown

@Yabba

Quote:
There are many reasons why the classic version of AOS4 is 'behind' and they spell DRIVERS.


OS4 on BPPC has seemless 68k emulation. I've seen it with my own eyes on my mates machine who happens to be a betatester.

He has some crappy PCMCIA CDROM interface and the 68k driver works flawlessly on his machine.

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nicholas 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 12:51:22
#50 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Dec-2004
Posts: 1536
From: Unknown

@nicholas

Quote:

nicholas wrote:
@Yabba

Quote:
There are many reasons why the classic version of AOS4 is 'behind' and they spell DRIVERS.


OS4 on BPPC has seemless 68k emulation. I've seen it with my own eyes on my mates machine who happens to be a betatester.

He has some crappy PCMCIA CDROM interface and the 68k driver works flawlessly on his machine.


I do remember one of the twins saying that the installer was the main thing missing from the Classic version.

Certainly my friend has to dick about copying files left right and centre each time he updates his beta system

Not my cup of tea I tell you, and I'm sure that Hyperion wouldn't want to release OS4 as is and then get deluged with incompetents complaining about how it doesn't work due to the fact they haven't copied particular files into certain places.

I am looking forward to buying OS4, I've waited a long time for it as I won't buy cheap overpriced hardware to run it on.

It's just a hobby for me, and I like my hobbies to be relatively cheap.

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polka. 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 13:02:14
#51 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@nicholas

Quote:

nicholas wrote:
OS4 on BPPC has seemless 68k emulation. I've seen it with my own eyes on my mates machine who happens to be a betatester.

He has some crappy PCMCIA CDROM interface and the 68k driver works flawlessly on his machine.


Let's hope that also other PCMCIA-devices work fine. I think that PCMCIA-LAN cards (e.g. cnet.device) are important for those who are using a BVision and can't rely on Realtek-based PCI-cards on the Mediator.

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Tomas 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 13:39:23
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@nicholas

Quote:
Not my cup of tea I tell you, and I'm sure that Hyperion wouldn't want to release OS4 as is and then get deluged with incompetents complaining about how it doesn't work due to the fact they haven't copied particular files into certain places.

I dont see the problem as long as hyperion state that it is unfinished product. I think most amiga users are used to these kinds of things anyways.

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falemagn 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 14:06:44
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@Yabba

Quote:

Perhaps 'ask not what the aos4 team can do for you - ask what you can do for the aos4 team'


I hope that was meant as a joke.

As far as I remember, customers are the ones that need to be satisfied, not the other way around. Show respect for customers, and you'll get respect back.

Tell them to get the hell out of here, and you'll be left with no customers. Smart move.

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

~~ Henry Ford

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Hondo 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 14:27:21
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1370
From: Denmark

@falemagn

But OS4 team are not a big company, but more like a grass-root movement. These people have worked their buts off, many of them for pocket-change salarys....so Falemagn take a chill-pill and understand that these people really is under pressure, because of a path they have chosen, not because they want to be millionaires.

I think the statement "'ask not what the aos4 team can do for you - ask what you can do for the aos4 team' is perfectly showing us all which state these companies work around, and that should call for serious respect!!

But i guess you are immune to that feeling right?, you just think they are a bunch of a##holes right?

Well I'm glad you're not the kind of guy to make OS4 come through, because that takes a certain level of sacrifice from a man....something i belive you would never give OS4.



Hondo


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Derfs 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 14:28:07
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 787
From: me To: you

@Tomas

Quote:

Tomas wrote:
@nicholas

Quote:
Not my cup of tea I tell you, and I'm sure that Hyperion wouldn't want to release OS4 as is and then get deluged with incompetents complaining about how it doesn't work due to the fact they haven't copied particular files into certain places.

I dont see the problem as long as hyperion state that it is unfinished product. I think most amiga users are used to these kinds of things anyways.


there were enough user problems with the pre-releases on the a1, and that had a proper installer. why ask for more trouble?

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elatour 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 14:38:38
#56 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Rogue

Quote:
The classic version just got a priority bump. Right now, the plan is to release it as soon as possible, *hopefully* within 1Q2007, although it will depend on a few factors naturally.

This is GREAT news! Good move!

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Hagbard_Celine 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 14:39:12
#57 ]
Member
Joined: 20-Sep-2004
Posts: 48
From: Germany, somewhere West

@Yabba

Quote:
but it is exactly people like you who had me abandon work on IBrowse for extended periods of time. Many times! Or perhaps, I should say post like yours. Because my only view of you is through your posts, but I am pretty sure you are a good guy after all. I just have a huge problem with the way some people express their feelings.


Damn, makes me think if it was a good idea spending the money on that Browser. I'm a bad guy after all ;)

See, the problem is, many people talk and do nada, so why support something. Look at the amount the Amizilla Crew got, and nothing happens. My money is just waiting there.

I am awfully sorry if you dont like my style, but after such a lon period of having nothing new, I, as a user, tend to get pissed.

Never forget, we are the ones paying your software.

Quote:
Perhaps 'ask not what the aos4 team can do for you - ask what you can do for the aos4 team' is food for thought?


Why would I do something for them? I support them financially, that of course, if there would be anything to support! Plus I'm doing hardware stuff, like repairing Phase5 prods, plus Betatesting, plus helping out in the by now biggest German Amiga Forum. I run my own Amiga Online Mag, where I write all the articles by myself.

Okay, okay, sorry, forgot to mention APUS, where I am doing some Kernel work atm, to make USB Cards work.

But yes, you are right, I should support the developers even more!

And now I even start complaining about something, geeesh how could I? You are of course right!

God, its not only you working for the Community Yabba! If it would, then the community wouldn't work.

But, hell yeah, you are right, I ain't doing nothing, just complaining.

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elatour 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 14:40:41
#58 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Rogue

Quote:
So, do I need to propose a place for your wise words?

Always spoken with the utmoust restraint and professionalism I see.

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falemagn 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 14:41:30
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@Hondo_DK

Although your tones aren't the most inviting ones I'm going to reply politely anyway. Take it as an example about how criticism should be dealt with.

Of course, this whole subdiscussion is off topic and as such it's pretty much likely that a moderator will step in and delete mine, yours and Yabba's posts.

Quote:

But OS4 team are not a big company, but more like a grass-root movement.


It's irrelevant. They're asking your money and patience, they need to show you respect for that. They've gone through a long series of missed deadlines and broken promises, they cannot but understand that some people just can't take it anymore. It's not people's fault if things are going bad, it's entirely their own fault, therefore putting the blame on the users, even the ones that are crying to buy their product, is nothing but a silly move if the intent is to sell them a finished product.

It's not hard to admit "yes people, you're right, we're sorry about it and we'll do our best to correct our mistakes", especially if you realize that it's in your best interest to do so. The userbase is shrinking day by day, and the question "how do you hope to make money with AOS4?" is still left without answer.

Quote:

These people have worked their buts off, many of them for pocket-change salarys....so Falemagn take a chill-pill and understand that these people really is under pressure, because of a path they have chosen, not because they want to be millionaires.


Any mentions of chill-pills should not be addressed at me but at the ones who constantly get raged up about simple questions or legitimate manifestations of customers' complaints. I am chilled, the same cannot be said about Rogue, Yabba and yourself.

Quote:

I think the statement "'ask not what the aos4 team can do for you - ask what you can do for the aos4 team' is perfectly showing us all which state these companies work around, and that should call for serious respect!!


I call nonsense. What kind of respect do these people deserve for having constantly broken promises and missed deadlines? What kind of respect do they expect when they send people to hell? What kind of respect do they deserve when they can't even handle some natural criticism with professionality?

If, on the other hand, you're saying that they are not professionals and should not be treated as such, then I may even agree with you.

As for the rest of what you've written, I'll let it go.

-- edit --
Reworded my reference to moderation.

Last edited by falemagn on 11-Jan-2007 at 03:55 PM.
Last edited by falemagn on 11-Jan-2007 at 03:54 PM.

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

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itix 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 14:44:48
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@Hondo_DK

Quote:

I think the statement "'ask not what the aos4 team can do for you - ask what you can do for the aos4 team' is perfectly showing us all which state these companies work around, and that should call for serious respect!!


I think yabba summed up an entire Amiga sentiment quite well. Question is not what companies can do to us but what users can do for companies.

Don't ask what Genesi can do for an Amiga community - ask what Amiga community can do for Genesi. Maybe it brings Amiga hardware closer to you

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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