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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Now that OS 4 is final...
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elatour 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 14:51:39
#61 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Hagbard_Celine

Quote:
It really makes me angry to see how you treat the users that made it possible to even think about an OS4.

This has always urked me as well, specially after I first bought and sunk a tone of money into my MicroA1 and started to develop on and promote AOS4 in any way I could, only to be confronted with some hostility by some people here when I first started reading posts and posting what I considered to be very innocent questions. Let's just say that my initial enthusiasm for the hardware and OS platform, and the companies behind them, started to wane a tad after that. I've continued to see this happen to more than one newbie to this site since then and it never ceases to amaze me.

All I can suggest is to ignore it and try not take it personally.

Quote:
Never forget, we are the ones paying your software.


Unfortunately, some individuals just don't believe in the old saying that the customer is always right, even when they are wrong, which according to some people, is 100% of the time when they don't agree with their opinions or views on something or tow the party line. As far as I am concerned, no matter how annoying a customer is, they are still the customer - the one tht helps pay the bills directly and/or indirectly - and that means you should exercise restraint and demonstrate professionalism when dealing with them at all times, eventhough this may be hard to do at times.

Last edited by elatour on 11-Jan-2007 at 03:28 PM.
Last edited by elatour on 11-Jan-2007 at 03:22 PM.
Last edited by elatour on 11-Jan-2007 at 03:00 PM.

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Hagbard_Celine 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 15:00:17
#62 ]
Member
Joined: 20-Sep-2004
Posts: 48
From: Germany, somewhere West

@elatour

At least somebody understands

I think that many people have seen the Users passion to the System, and use it to make faulty promises, knowing that the Users will always stay, nomatter what happens.

I don't know any system, that after 10 years of zero development, still has that many users.


_________________

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jkirk 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 15:02:09
#63 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2005
Posts: 3349
From: Georgia (usa)

@Hondo_DK

Quote:
customers are the ones that need to be satisfied, not the other way around. Show respect for customers, and you'll get respect back.


actually i believe that is accurate and a fair statement.

however right now we only have potential customers and not customers. any negativity will impact the state of potential customers to the point of not having a chance to sell something.

i don't blame the situation on hyperion since they are doing the best they can. there are always things that can be looked back on and say "we should have done this instead of that." as such the only thing to do is to accept what has happened and move forward or give up and admit losing. i believe hyperion is moving forward and i am glad of that. i just wish it was faster.

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abalaban 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 15:24:59
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2004
Posts: 1111
From: France

@falemagn

Quote:
Removed wrongly carried accusations

Last edited by abalaban on 11-Jan-2007 at 04:14 PM.

_________________
AOS 4.1 : I dream it, Hyperion did it !
Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

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Hans 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 15:28:21
#65 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4962
From: New Zealand

@elatour

Quote:

elatour wrote:
@Hagbard_Celine

Quote:
It really makes me angry to see how you treat the users that made it possible to even think about an OS4.

This has always urked me as well, specially after I first bought and sunk a tone of money into my MicroA1 and started to develop on and promote AOS4 in any way I could, only to be confronted with some hostility by some people here when I first started reading posts and posting what I considered to be very innocent questions. Let's just say that my initial enthusiasm for the hardware and OS platform, and the companies behind them, started to wane a tad after that. I've continued to see this happen to more than one newbie to this site since then and it never ceases to amaze me.


To be honest, I've found the most negativity coming from those who don't have OS4 and are not involved in its development. Take the ACube announcement, some are already complaining about it's specs and price even though the price hasn't been announced yet. I think it looks like a good machine. It's not going to compete with a new Intel core2 duo motherboard, but I expect it to cost less. At the right price this could be a very fun and useful machine.

We've had a constant pattern over the last few years, we get an announcement and then people complain that the specs aren't high enough, or the price is too high, or it's going to take too long. Users want a quality OS that runs on lots of hardware for a cheap price right now. Given the very limited resources that the development team have, that's impossible. Hearing a never-ending stream of complaints is really tiring and I can perfectly understand why the developers would get annoyed and frustrated with all this (not that this excuses unprofessional behaviour).

If they had worked on the classic version of OS4, we wouldn't have OS4 final right now, or it wouldn't have been as good as it is now. Some people just don't seem to understand this and the odd newbie gets fried when they hit a raw nerve. That's really unfortunate because we really want to have as many people onboard as possible.

Quote:

All I can suggest is to ignore it and try not take it personally.


Very good advice.

Even though I don't have classic PowerPC hardware, I'm glad that the classic version of OS4 just got a priority boost. The sooner it's released, the better.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 11-Jan-2007 at 03:30 PM.

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elatour 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 15:32:13
#66 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Hans

Quote:
Some people just don't seem to understand this and the odd newbie gets fried when they hit a raw nerve. That's really unfortunate because we really want to have as many people onboard as possible.

But when this comes from the manufacturer/seller or from people affiliated with them, this is an unprofessional way to handle current or prospective client users and developers, and is counter productive and just plain NOT the proper way to do business or handle PR with the remaining community, which might play a big role in helping promote the platform. You need as many people as possible from the community to be on your side, they can play an important if perhaps indirect marketting role. You don't achieved this by demonstrating hostility torwards your current/prospective client users/developers or by insulting or belittling them and their concerns. As hard as this might be, one has to take the high road, even when the client doesn't.

Quote:
Even though I don't have classic PowerPC hardware, I'm glad that the classic version of OS4 just got a priority boost. The sooner it's released, the better.

I don't have a CSPPC for my classic either, but I do have an A1, and I too am very happy to see this decision, which IMHO can only help boost it's adoption by more developers and users alike that currently don't have an option at all and/or might not be able to or want to buy a new PPC AOS4 based system for some time to come.

Last edited by elatour on 11-Jan-2007 at 03:45 PM.
Last edited by elatour on 11-Jan-2007 at 03:44 PM.
Last edited by elatour on 11-Jan-2007 at 03:42 PM.

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falemagn 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 15:33:57
#67 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@abalaban

Quote:

Why not first try to apply to yourself your own rules before trying to give lessons to other ?


I always do, it's a given.

Quote:

Did I miss something or after last December, 24th I did not see any apologies from you ? Refer to this post to see what I'm talking about, and how you were wrong... I agree being too optimist is bad, but it's even worst to always be dramatically sceptic, it's even counter-productive IMHO...


I see nothing I need to apologize for? Please, enlighten me.

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.

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abalaban 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 16:05:06
#68 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2004
Posts: 1111
From: France

@falemagn

Ok, I quickly reread the whole thread and I must admit I was too prompt to post : either my memory played me tricks (which is possible) or I had quote the wrong thread because I could have told for sure that somewhere on this site you made prediction that OS4 won't come out as in previous years... This post was close to this but you were not telling that here, so because I can't find the post I thought I once read, I have to apologize : because everybody is innocent until the contrary is proven. For this reason I'll also remove my previous post to let wrongly alleged statements about you.

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Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

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falemagn 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 16:07:57
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@abalaban

I never claimed AmigaOS4 wouldn't come out and I never will. Although I appreciate your apologies, I believe your post is the perfect example of the attitude that many (I won't dare say "most") of you around here have. You're too quick to jump the gun and pay little attention to the implications of what you say.

Anyway, I appreciate your apologies.

Last edited by falemagn on 11-Jan-2007 at 04:09 PM.
Last edited by falemagn on 11-Jan-2007 at 04:08 PM.

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abalaban 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 16:22:53
#70 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Oct-2004
Posts: 1111
From: France

@falemagn

Yes you are right I was too fast to answer. Most time I refrain myself from posting in such controversial threads, but sometimes I give up and post. It seems there is a pattern here because most of this time I post too quick resulting in a wrong post or at least partly right.
I really think that "not posting in controversial threads and refrain myself harder" should be part of my "new year resolutions"

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Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
Thank you to all devs involved for this great job !

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amipal 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 17:00:25
#71 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Apr-2003
Posts: 1905
From: Saltdean, East Sussex, UK

@falemagn

Quote:
It's irrelevant. They're asking your money and patience, they need to show you respect for that. They've gone through a long series of missed deadlines and broken promises, they cannot but understand that some people just can't take it anymore. It's not people's fault if things are going bad, it's entirely their own fault, therefore putting the blame on the users, even the ones that are crying to buy their product, is nothing but a silly move if the intent is to sell them a finished product.

Please name me one Amiga product that's arrived on time as announced. I can't see why you are placing fault on Hyperion who have made personal and fiscal sacrifices in order to make AmigaOS4. Without them and the others who have contributed to OS4, it would not exist at all. You have to respect that.

And as for them blaming the users - please, where are you getting this all from?

Quote:
Take it as an example about how criticism should be dealt with.

I take it as a very bad example.

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scabit 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 17:32:16
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2005
Posts: 1667
From: Satellite Beach, FL USA

@Rogue

Quote:
The classic version just got a priority bump. Right now, the plan is to release it as soon as possible, *hopefully* within 1Q2007, although it will depend on a few factors naturally.



Hooray! Thanks so much...I have been looing forward to this for ages! I hope it will run okay on my 230Mhz PPC with blizzard SCSI using good ole AGA!


Thank you!


Scott

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Yabba 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 17:33:32
#73 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jan-2004
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@falemagn

Quote:
I hope that was meant as a joke.


If it was a joke, there would have been a smiley there. Besides, this was exactly how I joined numbers of successful amiga projects in the past. Instead of bitching I asked myself what I could do to change the situation I felt was wrong. And apparently Hagbard has done the same. I applaud that! But I still dont think that it gives someone the right to behave like him.

Quote:
As far as I remember, customers are the ones that need to be satisfied, not the other way around. Show respect for customers, and you'll get respect back.


You got to be kidding me. Why don't you leave your magic little dream world and enter the real world and look around for a change. The Amiga world isn't exactly a helthy environment. If this was the real world, all of the companies doing Amiga development would have been bankrupt and gone long ago. So instead of just bitching I think that a little respect for the people who are still haning in there for YOU is waranted.

Quote:
Tell them to get the hell out of here, and you'll be left with no customers. Smart move.


If all what my 'customer' can do is to bitch on how I spend my spare time then, yes, I give my self the right to bitch back. Nothing strange about that. If I was running a health business with investors, a board, a hr department and doing this during my working hours I'd do my best to have a nice customer relations deparment. But when someone is bitching on how I should spend my spare time, I get angry.

regards,
Stefan

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Yabba 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 17:42:00
#74 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jan-2004
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@falemagn

Quote:
What kind of respect do these people deserve for having constantly broken promises and missed deadlines?


So what kind of respect should you expect for working you butt of during your spare time trying to acomplish someone else promissed with developers leaving due to mandatory service, family members getting very sick etc.???
Are you honestly saying that we deserve no respect whatsoever?

To be honest, and I read your post twice. Your attitude is just as bad as someone who would use bad language and name calling.:
Quote:
Although your tones aren't the most inviting ones I'm going to reply politely anyway.

Can you get more stuck-up-nosed? Don't you see that your high class 'I am above everyone else' attitude is very rude too? I have read many posts from you and most of them look the same. I am not sure if you are doing this intentionally or you are trying to refreain from beeing moderated by insulting people the aristocratic way.

regards,
Stefan

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Yabba 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 18:00:23
#75 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jan-2004
Posts: 134
From: Unknown

@Hagbard_Celine

Quote:
See, the problem is, many people talk and do nada, so why support something. Look at the amount the Amizilla Crew got, and nothing happens. My money is just waiting there.


I know. And I think that the Amizilla bounty thing was just a waste of energy. But that is of course my personal opinion. If the can pull through, thats awesome, but if not, I will not bitch with them on how they should have done instead. Personally I like showing results before I promise something.

Quote:
I am awfully sorry if you dont like my style, but after such a lon period of having nothing new, I, as a user, tend to get pissed.


And how do think developers feel after so long time and also beeing bitched at by users.... You are not the only one that are very frustrated at the situation. Many developers are too.

Quote:
Never forget, we are the ones paying your software.

In my case, you are wrong. The ones who have been paying the software you get are my family, my relationships (at least one of them ended since I spent too much time with IBrowse) and friends. It is impossible for any of us to be full time developers and earn our living of these sales. Maybe that gives you a little perspective who's really paying for your software.

Quote:
Why would I do something for them? I support them financially, that of course, if there would be anything to support!

Until then just stop bitching that they are incompetent and doing everything wrong. Thats simple.

Quote:
Plus I'm doing hardware stuff, like repairing Phase5 prods, plus Betatesting, plus helping out in the by now biggest German Amiga Forum. I run my own Amiga Online Mag, where I write all the articles by myself.


Oh, yeah, that one. You know, those articles suck! You need to put alot more research into them and I would like you to do an article on the CES in Las Vegas too. Can't you travel there and tell the rest of us. I really demand you to do that.
Seriously, I would never ask any of that from you or word it like that. Making people feel insulted will never achieve anything.

Quote:
Okay, okay, sorry, forgot to mention APUS, where I am doing some Kernel work atm, to make USB Cards work.


Oh, that works sucks too. Just becase

Quote:
But yes, you are right, I should support the developers even more!

I never asked that of you. I just asked you to be more polite to the developers. And I really applaud all the efforts that you are doing cause that is also needed in the community. And yes, I also think it is fine to ask sensitive questions, but when they have been asked 10 times before, what kind of answer do you expect?

Quote:
But, hell yeah, you are right, I ain't doing nothing, just complaining.

No matter what, it doesn't give you the right to be rude. And as I said, people react differently to what you say compared to your actual intentions.

rgds,
Stefan

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VooDoo 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 19:21:14
#76 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Jun-2003
Posts: 1502
From: Croatia

@Rogue

the best news what I read today :) woho..meep meep :)

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 19:41:26
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12290
From: Norway

@Hagbard_Celine

Quote:
Okay, okay, sorry, forgot to mention APUS, where I am doing some Kernel work atm, to make


I spent so match time trying to get APUS working on my friends Amiga, whit out success that really like to get time spent back, really a waste of time, now where you when I needed YOUR HELP?

The thing booted half of the time half, it refused to read the ramdisk image, did not like the video settings, and when we finally did get it up, we where forced to use framebuffer for X-Windows, do you know how slow that is!!!!

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 11-Jan-2007 at 07:44 PM.

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Richi 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 19:46:43
#78 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Dec-2004
Posts: 158
From: Unknown

@Rogue
Quote:


The usual. You know, eating the last cookies from Christmas, slaying a few babies, the usual stuff we do at Hyperion.

Are You hiring right now?! I can do everything!

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Hagbard_Celine 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 20:20:17
#79 ]
Member
Joined: 20-Sep-2004
Posts: 48
From: Germany, somewhere West

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I spent so match time trying to get APUS working on my friends Amiga, whit out success that really like to get time spent back, really a waste of time, now where you when I needed YOUR HELP?


I am very well aware of how slow x is under framebuffer. But that ist not the fault of the kernel, rather then the fault of the Xfree Windows Manager. Up until version 4.0.1 it supports AmigaVideo Cards.

I am rebuilding Kernel 2.6.16 atm, but the main goal is to fix the CSPPC driver. That is the reason the system crashes 90% of the time.

@ Yabba

Well see, I dont care if some isnt happy with what I do, I do it for myself, and I am proud of it.
So, whats the deal? You can't take criticism or what? I do not understand? Those are only Forum posts, its not like I attack you personally or call you or shout at you.

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Derfs 
Re: Now that OS 4 is final...
Posted on 11-Jan-2007 20:28:47
#80 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 787
From: me To: you

@elatour

Quote:

elatour wrote:
Unfortunately, some individuals just don't believe in the old saying that the customer is always right, even when they are wrong, which according to some people, is 100% of the time when they don't agree with their opinions or views on something or tow the party line. As far as I am concerned, no matter how annoying a customer is, they are still the customer - the one tht helps pay the bills directly and/or indirectly - and that means you should exercise restraint and demonstrate professionalism when dealing with them at all times, eventhough this may be hard to do at times.


you should never just have to stand there and take it if a so called customer is rude and offensive. you tell them to get the hell out. only customers feel that they are justified in doing anything as long as they get their way.

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