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      /  Amiga Inc. started trial versus Hyperion
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Zardoz 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 17:55:54
#301 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@madtrekker

Quote:
(although obviously financial constraints prevented them from doing this).


Combined with an extreme lack of any competence on any technical matter.

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Zardoz 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 18:04:11
#302 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@jorkany

[quote]

Mormons?

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Plaz 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 18:37:12
#303 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@yoodoo2

Quote:
Hyperion have quite clearly increased A Inc's IP value by continuing to develop


You've come to the root of the matter.... It's Amiga's IP. Absolutely Hyperion and it's contractors added value, but they entered a shakey deal. Now the lawyers will fill fill in the blanks.

Plaz

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nzv58l 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 18:51:47
#304 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Oct-2003
Posts: 1640
From: Michigan

@Plaz

I am not sure, but didn' t Hyperion not expect the exec to be in machine code and that was the reason why it took much longer to port? Which also required more work than what was outlined in the original contract. Does anyone realize that OS4 would not exist if the exec were not ported? I guess to put it in simpler terms, if I asked someone to paint a fence for x amount and I was to provide the tools, but when that someone went to paint it found out that all I had was a 000 brush then I think that would change the situation and make it a deal that was unreasonable.

Amiga Inc seems to be totally into AmigaDE. I am not.

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Hans 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 18:57:46
#305 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@billt

Quote:

billt wrote:
@saimo
Quote:
Can anybody please point me to the contract between AInc And Hyperion, please?


It's in Fleecy's pdf file, not Bill's, but I've only seen links to Bill's file. There's a number of other files in the amiga-hyperion directory but I've only read these two so far. I wish they were text PDFs, they seem to be scanned so you can't search for things.

http://www.merlancia.us/amiga-hyperion/decmossshow_case_doc.pdf



According to this document, they originally thought that by buying the Amiga name, they could get all of us to develop software for their new Amiga DE. Sadly, Amiga developers weren't interested, so Amiga OS4 was going to be the vehicle to coax us into developing software for the Amiga DE. Personally, I doubt that I would have been interested in developing Amiga DE software even if things had gone as plan.

Hans

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Plaz 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 18:59:25
#306 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@TheDaddy

I've now read through all the documents related to the latest case. I find it interesting that AmiInc claims that they were communicating with ACube about hardware, but ACube instead partnered with Hyperion.

Some serious issues must have been discussed by Hyperion if in fact ACubed declined to work with AmiInc and chose Hyperion instead. Very interesting choice while IP ownership and license rights are still in contention.

Hyperions response should be intriguing IF they plan to lay claim to OS4. I wish they could all work it out, but I guess it's too late for that.

Plaz
(I'm no lawyer, and claim to barely understand the court docs I read)

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nzv58l 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 19:03:04
#307 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Oct-2003
Posts: 1640
From: Michigan

@Hans

Quote:
they originally thought that by buying the Amiga name, they could get all of us to develop software for their new Amiga DE.


Well, perhaps they would have done a little better if they had at least ported the stupid thing to an Amiga platform. Perhaps that is why they ignore us is becuase they feel we let them down. Well, if they had spent a little time talking to the community instead of in court they may have figured this out.

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Plaz 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 19:07:51
#308 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@dirigent

Here's the link again I posted before. Very nice page with info about Bandito.

Link to Bandito History

Plaz

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number6 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 19:13:50
#309 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@Hans

Quote:
According to this document, they originally thought that by buying the Amiga name, they could get all of us to develop software for their new Amiga DE. Sadly, Amiga developers weren't interested, so Amiga OS4 was going to be the vehicle to coax us into developing software for the Amiga DE. Personally, I doubt that I would have been interested in developing Amiga DE software even if things had gone as plan.


Adding a few of the Garry Hare interview bits again for those that missed:

Quote:
Valiant:When will AmigaAnywhere be available on the AmigaOne?
GarryH:The first question relates to AmigaAnywhere being available for the AmigaOne. It makes perfect sense to us to do so. If we receive a request from the AmigaOne Partners to add it, we will certainly support that effort.


Quote:
Fransexy:Could be bought amigade for several plataforms and the content separately, or will be come the software related with the player specify for each platform, having to buy the same title for several platforms?
GarryH:In preparing for this IRC, I read many of the posts on this and other sites. One item that seems to be missed is that AmigaAnywhere transforms storage media, turning memeory devices (SD, mini-SD, USB, and the like) into very smart media. Applications can be "played" without download or use of system memory. This is extraordinarily important and provides ready markets for AmigaAnywhere and its applications.


Quote:
IanS:You implied before that it was up to Eyetech/Hyperion to contact Amiga Inc with regards to porting Amiga DE to the OS4/AmigaOne platform. What are the financial implications of porting AmigaDE to OS4? Will it be done in-house by Amiga Inc. DE developers, or will Hyperion/Eyetech be expected to pay for porting (or port it themselves)? Does the same apply to other third parties who may be interested in licensing the DE technology?
GarryH:This is really the type of question Hyperion/Eyetech would send direct. Amiga, Inc is handling all devices. We call the product AmigaAnywhere, not DE.


Quote:
Rincewynd:Your answer regarding AmigaAnywhere on AmigaOne indicates that Amiga, Inc won't take a proactive role in this matter. Why?
GarryH:No particular reason. Hyperion is quite busy getting a product out. they should be the ones who decide to add features, including AmigaAnywhere.


More here in Post #106

#6

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Plaz 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 19:49:03
#310 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@nzv58l

Quote:
I am not sure, but didn' t Hyperion not expect the exec to be in machine code and that was the reason why it took much longer to port?


Would this fall under the part where Amiga Inc claims Hyperion went beyond the scope of the original contract? Sure it was a good thing, but they better cover their butts with the proper paperwork before going out on such a limb. Maybe they thought they had covered all the bases.

But now Amiga Inc claims "All you base belong to us!"

Plaz

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dirigent 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 20:08:33
#311 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2003
Posts: 169
From: Unknown

@Plaz

Quote:
Link to Bandito History


Thanks for the link.

Quote:

"The new graphics chipset in development will make AGA seem puny, according to the whispers reaching the Bandito."

"The Bandito hears that a notebook Amiga is merely awaiting good quality, reasonably-priced LCD screens and a full CMOS chipset. We could see both of those things late in 1993, or possibly by early 1994."


Ah, the memories...

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nzv58l 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 20:42:52
#312 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Oct-2003
Posts: 1640
From: Michigan

@Plaz

How could Hyperion fulfill a contract to port the AmigaOS without porting the exec which was a hidden cost to Hyperion. Why did Ainc provide the code to the exec to Hyperion, knowing that it was out of scope if they did not intend for them to port it. I think Hyperion worked in good faith to fulfill their contract. They ought to be able to give everything to Ainc minus the exec which is not in the contract. If Ainc makes a stink about the exec they should just shread it and let AInc try to port it themselves.

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mbilla 
Re: Amiga Inc. started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 20:54:32
#313 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-May-2003
Posts: 1369
From: EU

@all

Well this is very sad!
I think that was the final nail for the Amiga!

OTOH I really hate this lawyer b u l l s h i t.

In todays world everything is based on intellectual properties and if one company makes some money and the other doesn't the latter one just shows some email stating "Oh that was our idea! please give us your money!"

I always thought the Amiga community was great! But the few remaning companies are killing themselves faster then we can look.

I really hate this mentallity! It's just based on capitalistic egoistic thinking!

It's the way globalisation works which will put mankind in a very bad situation where everyone is sueing everybody!

As it looks Amiga will be gone.
I will buy PageStream for my Mac and will leave after 20 years the Amiga Scene!

Last edited by mbilla on 01-May-2007 at 08:58 PM.

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asymetrix 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 21:04:21
#314 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 868
From: United Kingdom

@dirigent

Here is another solution :

1) Hyperion modify their website and remove or licence Amiga trademarks.
2) Return the Amiga Source and Object code of Amiga OS 4.0 to Amiga Inc.

This means - Roll back source and object code to when the Very first Amiga OS 4.0 CD (that came with just the AmigaOne) - not MicroA1 a few years back.

Hyperion can then sell any extra code (each release) as upgrades as it seams fit.

EG: the New memory system will not be included when returning the code back - as it is not what was requested by Amiga Inc.

Edit: Hyperion is not allowed to provide technical Support to Amiga OS 4.0 neither.







Last edited by asymetrix on 01-May-2007 at 09:15 PM.

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jiyong 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 21:25:43
#315 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Oct-2003
Posts: 594
From: Lelystad, The Netherlands

It looks like Amiga might have made some assumptions that weren't true after all.

The contract was with Hyperion VOF. I'm not sure if that is the same legal entity as Hyperion Entertainment VOF. Is there someone in Belgium that can check this?

If you look at the task list, there are three parts that might have to be surrendered to AInc.

1 - Port Exec to PPC , adapt WarpOS and the 68K emulator

Even with this one it is not clear who "owns" the code, as it mentions both Hyperion and Haage & Partner. From my perspective it would seem logical Exec is "owned" by Hyperion, but this is not explicitly mentioned in the text.

So you might make a reasonable chance that this can be disputed and therefore Hyperion might not even be in the position to surrender the code as you might argue that H&P also "own" the code and block this.

2 - Warp 3D / Ami3D

It mentions the Frieden brothers, but not the company.

3 - OpenGL based on MESA

Same as 2.

All other tasks mentions other names.

AInc should stop complaining that Hyperion was an empty shell. Just looking at the task list should have set off some alarms. Especially task 1. And also note that AInc agreed that contractors would own the right to their own source code.

During the negotiations of the "Arctic" contract, it should have been clear to AInc. the Friedens were not Hyperion employees, as the are explicitly mentioned as contractors.
And OS4 was taken hostage by the developers, as Hyperion owned nothing.

Another point that is not clear to me is about the $25000. I couldn't find full proof in both documents that AInc has actually paid in full. The factor that makes this unclear is also the fact that said payment will first be applied against the balance of any outstanding invoices. We don't know what the balance between AInc and Hyperion was.

All of a sudden I see an email where AInc. claims they can buy OS4 for $22500. No confirmation from the Hyperion side.

I only see hard proof for a total payment of $22250. Claiming someone said he has paid $2500 has no value in court (I would think so).

Anyone with any updates to my findings?

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Plaz 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 21:36:07
#316 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@nzv58l

Quote:
How could Hyperion fulfill a contract to port the AmigaOS without porting the exec which was a hidden cost to Hyperion.

Well you're asking a question base on my question that I don't have an answer to.

But to take your question at face value, I would say this would be part of the paperwork butt covering I would have cleared up if I were in Hyperion's shoes. "Hey, Amiga Inc. this stuff is a mess and we didn't count on these extra bits. We need more money or a new contract to deal with this."

And before any one drops the "hindsight" excuse... I deal will planning issues all the time. I've very good at spotting potential problems that will bite you 1,2, 3 years down the road. I'm also good at forecasting long term human and equipment resources. And every one stops by when they need the weather forcast. Perhaps Hyperion an AmiInc both should have thought more about project managment and scope.

Quote:

Why did Ainc provide the code to the exec to Hyperion, knowing that it was out of scope if they did not intend for them to port it.

If I'm going to remodel your home, I need all the blue prints, not just a picture of the kitchen. Even If I'm doing only a portion, having all the details can lead to a better job as all things are connected. It was probably short-sighted on AmiInc's part to hand over the whole basket. But when your porting to all new hardware there's probably no other solution.

Quote:

I think Hyperion worked in good faith to fulfill their contract.

I would agree. I think they poured their heart into it and probably went a bit overboard. And that's when trouble seeped in. No longer was it a contracted job, it was personal.

Quote:

They ought to be able to give everything to Ainc minus the exec which is not in the

I would like to see this settled fairly. Hyperion hands over the Source and Exec while receiving what they think is fair payment and maybe some extras like permisson to distribute in some fashion.

If Amiga in wins the IP, but Hyperion cannot/will not hand over ALL the sources including exec, then OS4 is Dead On Arrival. Hyperion can't continue development minus Amiga IP, and AmiInc can't release/continue it because they have to write chunks of it all over again. Hence Bill McEwen statements about OS5 make some sence. He may have seen the posibility that OS4 could be lost or crippled. If so, the only next step is to rollback to OS3.x, re-write and move on to 5.0

Plaz

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Plaz 
Re: Amiga Inc. started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 21:48:04
#317 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@mbilla

I'm going to give it a bit more time. Hope is an agreement can still be reached. The next month or two will tell.

Plaz

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estik 
Re: Amiga Inc. started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 21:50:25
#318 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2004
Posts: 587
From: Pacos de Ferreira, Portugal

@Plaz

How long until the lawsuit ends?
What's usually the average time to such a process to end?

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wegster 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 21:56:33
#319 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@markus_wankus

Quote:
So, the way I see it - Hyperion is just using their rights as outlined in section 2.07 - "In the event Amiga files for bankruptcy or becomes insolvent..." that they are "..granted an exclusive, perpetual, world-wide and royalty-free right and license to develop (at their sole expense), use, modify and market the Software and OS 4 under the "Amiga OS" trademark."


There's an interesting interpretation. One that, if upheld in court, would be highly ironic- 'AInc' plays the shell game to avoid debts, yet loses AmigaOS in the process...kinda...hmm...fitting, maybe?

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Tigger 
Re: Amiga Inc Started trial versus Hyperion
Posted on 1-May-2007 22:02:16
#320 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@nzv58l

Quote:

nzv58l wrote:
@Plaz

I am not sure, but didn' t Hyperion not expect the exec to be in machine code and that was the reason why it took much longer to port? Which also required more work than what was outlined in the original contract. Does anyone realize that OS4 would not exist if the exec were not ported?

First of all if Hyperion didnt know exec was in machine code, they are the only programmers in the community at that time that didnt know it. Secondly if they job wasnt worth the money, then they should have said, sorry not going to do it. Not enough money, exec is in machine code, etc. I'm not sure you are going to actually find a reference to Hyperion saying they didnt know exec was in machine code, all the commercial developers with CATS knew it, and probably the non commercial ones as well. It wasnt a secret, in fact I'm pretty sure I can find references to it being that way in either Amigaworld or Amazing.

Quote:

I guess to put it in simpler terms, if I asked someone to paint a fence for x amount and I was to provide the tools, but when that someone went to paint it found out that all I had was a 000 brush then I think that would change the situation and make it a deal that was unreasonable.


The problem is that you even if you scenario were correct you still shouldnt get anymore money. If you went ahead and spent an extra year painting the fence because the brush was tiny, and then I paid you for it and said be sure to give me my gates back, and then four years later you are trying to sell my gates and want me to pay you money for all the time you have spent painting the fence 4 years after I paid you for the completed job that you didnt complete, no judge in the land is going to give you anything. He's just going to laugh about you painting with the little paint brush.
-Tig

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