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billt 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 14:56:39
#201 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3162
From: Maryland, USA

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
Do you see the round shaped hole? That is Amiga.

Do you see the green square block to the right?


Yea. But if you hit it hard enough with a big enough hammer, you can get that green square to go through that round hole. There may be some splintering and tearing involved, but it is possible to see the green square go to the other side of that hole. No, I'm not sure how you'd do the software equivalent of that big hammer, but I do believe that most everything is possible in software, given enough time and programmers to make it happen.

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billt 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 15:10:48
#202 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3162
From: Maryland, USA

@DrBombcrater

Quote:
I must confess, I don't really understand how the 1682 handles PCIe. It seems to have 24 'serial lanes', some of which are used by on-board devices like the ethernet controllers, with the others being available for PCIe use. It's an interesting and potentially very flexible system, but I've seen references to an upper limit of 8 PCIe lanes which would be rather less than optimal.


I thought it was limited to 8 ports, and each port could have just about any number of legal PCIe lanes so long as enough SERDES are available. Sharing SERDES with ethernet and other things certainly cuts down how much PCIe you can have, but I'm sure their web site says the 8 limitation on PCIe is for ports, not lanes. That certainly beats the 8641's 2 port max and 8 lanes per port definition.

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Hans 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 15:11:09
#203 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@billt

Quote:

billt wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
Do you see the round shaped hole? That is Amiga.

Do you see the green square block to the right?


Yea. But if you hit it hard enough with a big enough hammer, you can get that green square to go through that round hole. There may be some splintering and tearing involved, but it is possible to see the green square go to the other side of that hole. No, I'm not sure how you'd do the software equivalent of that big hammer, but I do believe that most everything is possible in software, given enough time and programmers to make it happen.


You could always be a little more gentle and enlarge the round hole so that the square and triangle pieces all fit through.

_________________
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Metalheart 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 15:21:04
#204 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2968
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains....

@Hans

Quote:
You could always be a little more gentle and enlarge the round hole so that the square and triangle pieces all fit through.


Or maybe some lubrication......

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When its time to meet the maker
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minator 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 15:32:00
#205 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@Metalheart

Quote:
Or maybe some lubrication......



Putting things into holes with a tight fit, forcing them, and now lubrication?

Now all it needs is for someone to say when this board will be big and come onto the market soon...


The smut around here!

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jkirk 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 15:33:18
#206 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2005
Posts: 3348
From: Georgia (usa)

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@billt

Quote:

billt wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

[quote]Do you see the round shaped hole? That is Amiga.

Do you see the green square block to the right?


Yea. But if you hit it hard enough with a big enough hammer, you can get that green square to go through that round hole. There may be some splintering and tearing involved, but it is possible to see the green square go to the other side of that hole. No, I'm not sure how you'd do the software equivalent of that big hammer, but I do believe that most everything is possible in software, given enough time and programmers to make it happen.


You could always be a little more gentle and enlarge the round hole so that the square and triangle pieces all fit through. [/quote]

comeon guys everyone knows the round hole is bigger on the inside than on the outside. lol

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billt 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 15:38:11
#207 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3162
From: Maryland, USA

I certainly hope this PAsemi theory comes true for ACK's high-end. Yea, there'd be lots of stuff to do before OS4 really fits on it. But the lack of SMP or 64bit support will never really be solved by any means if there is no hardware to put it on. The why bother because OS4 doesn't do this or that argument is the same as the chicken or the egg debate. Well, if god had fretted about whether to do the egg first or the chicken first, he'd never have created either. Whatever he decided, he did one of them first and the history of the universe now shows that we've enjoyed chickens and eggs for a long time because of it. Putting hardware out there as somethign that OS4 might run on is a needed first step. It's hard to debug SMP or 64bit support without something to run it on, so I think hardware is the more sensible thing to happen first.

As for if SMP is possible on OS4, I'm not worried about that. Even if we don't get true SMP, we can still find ways to make use of additional cores. Maybe something like WarpUP to use the second core as a carefully controlled coprocessor, where things running on it would not be problematic for forbid() situations. How did stuff on the PPC deal with that kind of thing under WarpUP/PowerUP? Some solution was found that worked. Might not have been the most ideal way to run code on another core/CPU, but it was better than just the 68K alone right? We'll never see any benefit of any kind if there's no hardware to do it. Taking this first step allows the OS developers the possibility of figuring out how to do it on the software end, whatever that may end up becoming.

I really hope that whatever ACK is hinting at comes to be. I really like this PAsemi hypothesis. I hope that there is no problems between ACK and the OS4 developers with everything going on. I look forward to seeing what actually happens.

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Fransexy 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 16:03:33
#208 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@billt

Quote:
As for if SMP is possible on OS4, I'm not worried about that. Even if we don't get true SMP, we can still find ways to make use of additional cores. Maybe something like WarpUP to use the second core as a carefully controlled coprocessor, where things running on it would not be problematic for forbid() situations. How did stuff on the PPC deal with that kind of thing under WarpUP/PowerUP? Some solution was found that worked. Might not have been the most ideal way to run code on another core/CPU, but it was better than just the 68K alone right? We'll never see any benefit of any kind if there's no hardware to do it. Taking this first step allows the OS developers the possibility of figuring out how to do it on the software end, whatever that may end up becoming.


That is what i was thinking, something in the line of WarpUP/PowerUP.That isn´t the best solution but could be a fast and initial solution until AmigaOS get full SMP.After all is not the first time AmigaOS run on multicpu system. We made the difficult one, running on 2 different architectures with different speed (68k and powerpc), now with 2 identical cores and the same speed wouldn´t have to be a big problem to find a solution
What about one core running petunia an another running Powerpc apps?

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Metalheart 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 17:21:51
#209 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2968
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains....

Now, it's monday evening overhere......

Hmmmm.... Where are the ACK high-end system specs ?

Martin

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Hans 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 17:23:38
#210 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@Metalheart

It's still only 1:23 pm EST.

Hans

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billt 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 17:25:32
#211 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3162
From: Maryland, USA

@Metalheart

Quote:
Now, it's monday evening overhere......


What time is it where Adam lives?

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Metalheart 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 17:25:34
#212 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2968
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains....

@Fransexy

Quote:
now with 2 identical cores and the same speed wouldn´t have to be a big problem to find a solutionWhat about one core running petunia an another running Powerpc apps?


Yes, that was what I was thinking Even more tasks / applications could be made to run on this 'co-processor'

How about a '2ndCore.library' or something, just like the fpu library's from the 3.1 days....

Martin

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Metalheart 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 17:26:43
#213 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2968
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains....

@billt

Canada, so... plus six hours or so....

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Hans 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 17:34:52
#214 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@billt

Quote:

billt wrote:
@Metalheart

Quote:
Now, it's monday evening overhere......


What time is it where Adam lives?


Fonthill, Ontario is in the North American eastern standard timezone.

Hans

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MoonSire 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 17:40:14
#215 ]
Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2005
Posts: 92
From: Behind the Moon

@Metalheart

Where does it say monday? I can not see that information on amiga.com...

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Shadowolf 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 17:42:19
#216 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Mar-2005
Posts: 137
From: Germany

This is what I got from a distributor about two weeks ago:

>the PA6T-1682M currently is in A2 Revision.
>
>Production Parts (B revision)
>- Tapeout May 2007
>- Samples Aug 2007
>- Fully qualified for production in Q4

>PA6T-182M Prototype A2 - $700
>PA6T-1682M-FCN -> 2GHz - $950 @ 1k
>Electra Evaluation Board, PAEV-1682M-001, $8500

And this of course excludes taxes.

If this is the real price for that CPU I am afraid it is bound to fail
except for very high-end applications.

Hmm, let's see what else is there.
Intel Core(TM)2Duo T7200 2,0GHz 4MB, S 479 - 280 Euro
Intel Core(TM)2Duo E6700 2,66GHz 4MB - 473 Euro
Intel Core(TM)2Quad Q6600 2,4GHz 2x4MB KL! - 754 Euro

All including taxes of 19 percent and are end-user price.

I do not want to imply that these are any better or even really compareable,
or that I would want an Intel instead.

I am afraid however that PA-Semi has to lower their target-prices a little.

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Insanity 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 17:46:15
#217 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Aug-2005
Posts: 405
From: Sweden

@Shadowolf

comparing system on a chip with a microprocessor is not really fair, but yes, the price is high. that might be related to the fact that they are most likely not at full production quantities?

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number6 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 17:56:50
#218 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10908
From: In the village

@MoonSire

Quote:
Where does it say monday? I can not see that information on amiga.com..

The information came from Adam in this thread in post #32 from May 5, 2007:
Quote:
On Monday you will see the actual specification for the board.


#6

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Shadowolf 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 18:14:16
#219 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Mar-2005
Posts: 137
From: Germany

@Insanity

Quote:

Insanity wrote:
@Shadowolf

comparing system on a chip with a microprocessor is not really fair, but yes, the price is high.


Of course this is not fair, it's not really intended to be, just to give a raw picture.
But even if you add 200 Euro to the Intel for a full mainboard it just plays in
a different league.
The 200 Euro for the mainboard are even more unfair then,
when making a couple of 100k of them the price for the HW
is completely different.

One could put 20 Euro worth of support-chips around the Intel though.

Also my intend was not to discuss the system-price.
But if the system is to cost $1500 and the CPU alone
costs $950 of it there is not much room left for everything else.
Let alone covering development costs for our low-volume market.

Quote:

that might be related to the fact that they are most likely not at full production quantities?


No, this is what I have been told will be the price for full production units.
Notice that the $950 is the price when you buy 1000+.

A good arguing buyer will probably get a way better price.

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billt 
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core
Posted on 7-May-2007 18:15:24
#220 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3162
From: Maryland, USA

@Insanity

Quote:
comparing system on a chip with a microprocessor is not really fair


The comparison should be between equivalent features. That means you would compare a 1682M to an 8641, or you'd compare them with (x86 CPU + northbridge + ethernet chip + ???). What would that look like in the same quantities? Probably still noticably cheaper on the x86 side.

Now, compare AmigaOS4 hardware on a system-level. Currently we're comparing nothing with nothing, as nothing exists in buyable form today. Compare whatever the highend turns out to be to whatever other things might be available, sure, the high-end is probably a more expensive system. Maybe only a handful of people buy it. Maybe it wasn't worth doing if that's the case. But, from an OS4 perspective, I think it's stilly to compare something that can run OS4 to something that cannot. Sure, a fancy x86 system may cost less, but after spending that money you're just as unable to run OS4 as you were before you spent that money, so I consider that to be a total waste to buy x86 considering the goal is to run OS4.

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