@HammerD

Quote:

As far as I heard Amiga Inc. wanted full source code control and the MOS team said no way and that was the end of the discussions.

Which makes Hyperion's suggestion that AI should have known all along they weren't going to get full source code from *them* just so much harder to believe, doesn't it?

I mean, when you have the choice between OS A, where you don't get full source code and where the kernel may be used for other things, and OS B, where you don't get full source code and the kernel may be used for other things, and OS A has been in development for two years by people who have shown that they can write an OS, and OS B is but a figment of some game-porting house's imagination..... Which OS woul you go for?

@samface

Quote:

Sure, I can get Linux for it, but for that I would need an official "Linux kit" from Sony. Do you follow me yet?

That was the situation with the PS2. The PS3, on the other hand, apparently has an entry "install foreign OS" or so in their main menu.

Nobody suggests putting OS4 on the PS2. Some people suggest putting it on the PS3. There is nothing SONY does to stop that from happening. Yes, you won't be able to do highly accellerated 3D graphics (hypervisor --- read up on it of you care) --- but it's not like OS4 does that in the first place.

OS 4.0 needs more of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE

:)

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

@DiscreetFX

Microsoft has always understood that coders are the lifeblood of any platform. That's why their developer tools have always been above average, and why their current tools are pretty darn slick.

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: It will become identical the day we all have the same preference for the hardware we want to buy.

We don't all have to agree, we just need something that's apealing to more than 3k people.

Quote:

Well... sorry, I'm too annoyed by the hours of time I've spent on trying to get HDLoader (an application for launching PS2 games from harddrive) to work on my mod free PS2 using an exploit that involvs a hot swap disc, a ps1 game disc, a memory card, an ethernet adapter with an IDE interface and of course a hard disk to even begin explaining. Let's just say that Sony doesn't like you to put whatever you want on your harddrive in their console, much less that you would be able to boot from it. Sure, I can get Linux for it, but for that I would need an official "Linux kit" from Sony. Do you follow me yet?

The PS3 has an option right in the main menu to install third party OS'es from just about anywhere (USB flash drive, CD etc). We had Big Threads on this subject already, we talked to Sony on the phone already, etc...

Last edited by T_Bone on 02-Jun-2007 at 04:06 AM.
Last edited by T_Bone on 02-Jun-2007 at 04:03 AM.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@samface

Quote:

that I have more facts to back it up now due to recent events is just a nice bonus.

You don't have more facts now, you have circumstances that have naturally changed over the SIX years that this nonsense has gone on. That dosen't make you right from the beginning and Seehund wrong from the beginning.

Quote:

And then, what so many seem to forget when they talk about examples of platforms where Linux runs so easily is that Linux has a source code that is not just open but also not tied to any hardware architecture in specific and the most common chipsets already supported by the kernel.

And yet Yellow Dog always had to make adjustments through the years to make their OS compatible with newer Mac models as they came out. I know having bought copies in the past that are now ancient. Yet they have not with a mere snapping of fingers come out with a i386 version for Intel Macs. And it appears that Acube got OS4 to run on PPC Mac Mini. If someone had done this earlier with PPC Macs at the time we wouldn't be in this mess.

Quote:

Eyetech were given a certain degree of exlusivity in their agreement with Amiga Inc. and could not be simply abandoned despite Escena's failure to deliver, atleast not right away.

Its 2007 samface, 2007. If Amiga had directed (written another contract for it whatever) Hyperion more to expand the OS to other platforms like select PPC Macs instead of the several updates they did there would be a larger installed base. Problem is Amiga seems like they were only concerned with DE for a few years at first.

What great fruit has their plan, of which you seem to fully approve gotten the community? The AmigaOne exclusive club is pretty darn small, and dwindling as the machines die over time.

Quote:

As you can tell by putting all relevant parts of the story on the timeline, the PPC mac never was an option until it was too late.

Too late for what? Desktop OS world domination? Its a bloody toy hobby OS. It dosen't even have a modern web browser. If someone could release the Mac Mini PPC version you'd be able to double the intall base overnight between people who have them and getting one on ebay if you don't. And again just make it for PS3, we can buy those new.

There is a reason sites like OSnews etc have the scoffing tone they sometimes do for news items for us. In six years you had what, a max user base of 2000 for OS 4.0?

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

Quote:

realize wrote: @Ketzer If you had any clue what you were talking about you wouldnt post some inane nonsense like that...

Cause the people I know including myself are not allowed their opinion.

Quote:

Ainc was considering MOS for OS4 - naturally as MOS was already in development for 2 years at that time. Not only this (and you are going to get your feelings hurt) but Pegasos1 almost got an "Amiga 1" license.

Hurt my feelings? I think youre confusing someone here. "Almost" means it didnt, so it isnt. Why you have a problem with that and dont believe mos can stand on its own, I dont know, and dont care. Youre still offtopic.

@realize

Quote:

I really really wish Ralph Schmidt would come out and make statements as he is very informed as to this whole affair with Ainc.

Well, he made this statement on the situation in the past. Apparently Ben ("the FUD-meister") Hermans played a significant role in this. But to be honest, I'm quite happy about MorphOS having nothing to do with Amiga Inc, and I'm pretty sure the MOS developers feels the same.

Quote:

Alas, he REFUSES to come to this site out of protest to the flagrant and baseless allegations about the legality of MOS (btw if its so illegal why MOS guys have never been sued? ) and other problems

Other MorphOS developers has reacted Hyperions/Ben's FUD campaigns about MorphOS legality though, look here for instance. It strikes me as very ironic that while MorphOS indeed is very legal, Ben Hermans has played a great part in the process that eventually may turn *OS4* illegal in the end...

In this thread you can read more about who was first, about MorphOS as "OS4", and see Rogue elaborating on when and why they went past the agreed specifications for OS4 outlined in the contract. I think it's obvious that they realized that FUD against MorphOS and the "but it's not teh reel!!1" campaigns would not be enough to compete. MorphOS was way far ahead; it was a true stand-alone, all PPC Next Generation Amiga OS unlike what OS4 would be according to the contract. So they just kept on developing, which resulted in a five year development time instead of the agreed five months. And we all know the rest...

@samface

Quote:

I've basicly repeated the same arguments over and over

That sums it up pretty well!

Since 2001 you have only been repeating a mantra, completely incapable of listening to any reasonable arguments. Even when reality hits you like a 24-wheeler hitting a rabbit on the highway you refuses to acknowledge it. You just keep talking in circles, like an old horse with blinkers, repeating that mantra of yours. Perpetuum Mobile. Yep, that sums it up pretty well!

Over 1000 replies!

T_Bone you were the lucky man..



Now the goal is to exceed 2000 ! ! !

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@takemehomegrandma

Do you realize that you are summing yourself up pretty well too?

@Hans who said Quote:

Wow, ... Usually threads eventually degrade and get locked long before the 1000 post mark.

Perhaps people are becoming more mature/realistic? Or all the loonies have moved to other sites? Or (pessemistic though) many people have already given-up & moved on?

@DiscreetFX
What, we need a loony fat due jumping around stage & screaming?!? Although perhaps Bill McEwan might be heading in that direction

_________________

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Yet they have not with a mere snapping of fingers come out with a i386 version for Intel Macs.

They probably could but given that they specialise in Linux for power machines I doubt they ever will.

[email]And it appears that Acube got OS4 to run on PPC Mac Mini. If someone had done this earlier with PPC Macs at the time we wouldn't be in this mess.[/email]

I think Samface has a point in that an exclusive hardware license made sense at one point. However that point was a long time ago. It became very obvious long before the pre-releases even shipped that the license situation was going to be holding it back.

If OS4 was on other platforms it might actually be worth the $2 million Amiga offered Hyperion for it. Currently it's not even worth even 1/20th of that.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@ChrisH

Quote:

Perhaps people are becoming more mature/realistic? Or all the loonies have moved to other sites? Or (pessemistic though) many people have already given-up & moved on?

Serveral things I think. Trolls ignored more, moderation improved, overly enthusiatic proponents/opponents have tired and moved on, and many more probably just got fed up and went back to XP/Linux/Mac while Amiga continues it's long slumber.

Plaz

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

You don't have more facts now, you have circumstances that have naturally changed over the SIX years that this nonsense has gone on. That dosen't make you right from the beginning and Seehund wrong from the beginning.

Among my arguments was the uncertainty of relying on hardware from third parties that is already bundled with an alternative to AmigaOS. Such third parties clearly has no interest in the AmigaOS and are not very likely to include it in their plans for the future. Due to certain developments, I can now back up those fears with examples from actual events. The phrase "told you so" springs to mind...

Now, of course license agreements and bundling schemes are no guarantees of anything either, something the case with Eyetech clearly shows, but just like a parachute is no guarantee of surviving when jumping off of a cliff, it sure as hell feels better to have once you have jumped.

Quote:

And yet Yellow Dog always had to make adjustments through the years to make their OS compatible with newer Mac models as they came out. I know having bought copies in the past that are now ancient. Yet they have not with a mere snapping of fingers come out with a i386 version for Intel Macs. And it appears that Acube got OS4 to run on PPC Mac Mini. If someone had done this earlier with PPC Macs at the time we wouldn't be in this mess.

So Yellow Dog Linux had to be "adjusted" to work with newer Mac models, what's your point? You are not seriously comparing that to the work of porting the original AmigaOS3.1 sources to PPC and removing the classic Amiga chipset dependencies that was assigned to Hyperion back when they signed the license agreement with Amiga Inc.? Again, as I tried to explain in my earlier post, certain things in the past happened the way they happened because they had to and you are talking about missed opportunities that never existed.

Quote:

Quote: Eyetech were given a certain degree of exlusivity in their agreement with Amiga Inc. and could not be simply abandoned despite Escena's failure to deliver, atleast not right away. Its 2007 samface, 2007. If Amiga had directed (written another contract for it whatever) Hyperion more to expand the OS to other platforms like select PPC Macs instead of the several updates they did there would be a larger installed base. Problem is Amiga seems like they were only concerned with DE for a few years at first.

Now you're simply not making sense. Are you talking about what they should do today or what they should have done back then?

As you said yourself earlier, the situation back then was different. They realized that it would take quite some time to both port the AmigaOS over to PPC and remove the chipset dependencies, something it did indeed. Escena offered a hardware solution that would allow them to accomplish this in stages instead of having to complete it all before a consumer release would be possible. As we can tell by reading the court documents of the court case at hand and the time frames given to Hyperion for completing AmigaOS4, the license agreement relied quite heavily on this strategy.

If you're saying that this wasn't a good idea and that they should have gone for a clean PPC implementation without any classic Amiga chipset dependencies right away, which I'm guessing you do by your "select PPC Macs instead" arguments, you do realize that it would still take the time it took for Hyperion to release AmigaOS4 for the AmigaOne, right? As we can tell again by the court documents of the court case at hand, Hyperion barely survived and had to ask Amiga Inc. for financial aid. Can you really blame them for wanting to do it over a series of releases where they could recoup some of their development costs as they went along?

Now drop your arrogant claims of how much more sales they would have if they would have just realized how much more available this or that hardware option is than the AmigaOne. The situation is unfortunate, yes, but everything that has happened has happened as a result of certain circumstances that I've tried to explain here.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

It's really quite simple:

It may be that relying on PPC-Macs (and maybe even Pegasos) wasn't the most wonderful plan back in 2001, but relying on Eyetech was plain stupid one from start.

Again noone ever said that Eyetech shouldn't have been allowed to bundle "their" HW with OS4 (but one might add that in hindsight it might have been a good idea), they mistake was to let them have it exclusivly.

Sure they would have had an hard time competing againts Apple and Genesi but that should have been their problem. Instead consumers were forced to by substandard HW at ridicioulos prices but without any real support.

In the real world getting a specific PPC-Mac model today is easier and safer than it was getting an A1 when they were actually available.

In the real world you're able to buy atleast 2 used Macs for the price of any new Amiga-HW (if that would be available), and guess what those Macs are gonna outperform the "Amiga" by quite a margin.


If Amiga had HW good enough to compete on todays market, both at price and at performance then (and really only then ) it would make sense to develop OS4 exclusive for that HW.

Wasn't the case in 2001, ain't it now, never was it in between.

Last edited by Kronos on 02-Jun-2007 at 07:48 PM.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: It may be that relying on PPC-Macs (and maybe even Pegasos) wasn't the most wonderful plan back in 2001, but relying on Eyetech was plain stupid one from start. Again noone ever said that Eyetech shouldn't have been allowed to bundle "their" HW with OS4 (but one might add that in hindsight it might have been a good idea), they mistake was to let them have it exclusivly.

You are being serious aren't you.
Without that exclusivity the Eyetech/Hyperion contract would not have happened.
No PPC Hardware! No PPC Operating System!

You have to look at the situation as it was then, not as it is now. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but at the time the classic Amiga line had no future. The hardware was dying, the OS wasn'y improving, and there was no direction, or even interest from AInc. It was Eyetech & Hyperion that brokered a deal with AInc not the other way round. AInc was only interested in AmigaDE.

Yes, licensing AmigaOS to run on different hardware is a great idea, just look what it has done for Microsoft, but it wasn't possible with the custon chips that the Classic Amiga had. The Escena board was a stepping stone to what we have now, unfortunatley that stepping stone crumbled away, and the leap was made to what we have now. A Hardware independant operating system, that AInc now realise they can license for other hardware, that, like Microsoft, they could generate income from. But to do that, and it is a big BUT, they must control it, hence the court case.
If Hyperion hadn't made the necessary leap when the stepping stone crumbled there would not be a court case today! It's all about money.

_________________
Peter Swallow.
A1XEG3-800 [IBM 750FX PowerPC], running OS4.1FE, using ac97 onboard sound.

"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't."

@T_Bone

Quote:

The PS3 has an option right in the main menu to install third party OS'es from just about anywhere (USB flash drive, CD etc). We had Big Threads on this subject already, we talked to Sony on the phone already, etc...

Originally you did need a file from Sony in order to load a new OS, however since GameOS 1.6 it's no longer necessary, you can install anything you want. Sony have no say in the matter.

Last edited by minator on 02-Jun-2007 at 09:31 PM.

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Whyzzat?

@Swoop

You see that the main mistake in your logic:

The Escena-Project had been (silently) mothballed months before Hyperion took over, and it was a plain stupid idea from the start as AmigaOS allready ran with minimal chipset(emulation) as shown by both the Draco and Amithlon.

Problem is more that AInc wasn't prepared to admit their "untruths" about the A1 and therefore allowed Eyetech to carry over that contract to the Terons, mobos worse in every aspect (including the level of documentation) than what was readily available from Apple. Pretty much the same story as why the golden-egg laying duck (aka Amithlon) ended up in H&P's hand.

Someone brought up that Nov01 ann.lu thread were Laire explained why MOS didn't become OS4, a wonderfull piece to see why the whole Hyperio-Eyetech-AInc-triangle HAD to fail.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@Yabba

Bullseye!