@kgrach

@Ketzer

Because that's all they Bill and Co. can do. They don't code or program or DO anything "computer" related. They take other peoples stuff and repackage it and then sell it as there own. Now, I'm not saying that is BAD. I'm just saying that's what they do. Intent is repackaged to be AmigaAnywhere. All those games on there website are programmed by other people and they get part of the money.

Quote:

Why the sudden interest in AOS4?

Because now it's done. It's tangible.
Now it's EASY for them. They just have to sell it as THEIR own.

Quote:

Why choose ACK to make a low end board when there are plenty of working low end PPC board options currently available?

Amiga Inc., have NO money. They can't partner with a REAL motherboard manufacturer as they would have to put money down upfront, which they don't have.

No doubt, Adam's deal is that he gets NO money upfront, he will do ALL the work, will CREATE, MANUFACTURE, and maybe Amiga Inc., will help SELL the motherboards, but they will be labled "Amiga" so somehow Amiga Inc, will get a cut of the money. Again, Amiga Inc., makes money off of someone elses work.

That's why they are "working" with Adam. They can't lose as they invest little.

Quote:

Why waste money on a stadium name, especially a controversial stadium?

Marketing!

It's like herewegoagain said in other forums, Marketing!

Except not like you think.

The marketing is JUST getting people to think you are going to spend $10,000,000.00 on the stadium. They will NEVER spend a DIME!

One of 2 things will happen. The stadium will never get approved to be built (which I bet they are praying for) or they will have to back out and the city will just find someone else. Either way they got tons and tons of publicity for a short wile....

ALL FOR FREE!

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@Ketzer

Attempted buyback or buyin depending on whos interpretation here.

If I want to buy something I pay for it in whole EI. check for $25,000.00 or borrow the full amount.
If you want to argue the attempted Buyback was on layaway then why the crazy numbers and then why not pay for the whole thing. One could easily argue that the payments where for earlier or other work contracted for by Amiga Inc.

Ordering something on layaway is one thing but demanding that it be handed over without paying for the whole thing is rediculous.

Also If I am paying something for a business then there should be a paper trail of some kind. example There should of been registered letters from Amiga Inc. Asking Hyperion where thier product was after payment was paid in full and the goods not delivered in a timely basis. None of that has been presented so far or even hinted at.

The other thing that makes no sense how do you do an installment plan without any sort of documentation ( IE contract ) on what you are doing.
You can argue that there was a gentlemans agreement or verbal agreement which are both valid under US law. But again that was not mentioned by AI so far.

Ohh BTW the law in the US is, If somebody sends you something you didn't request.
You are under no obligation to return it or pay for it.
If the bank was to send you a check for 25,000 dollars that you did not ask for and there is no stipulation written on the check saying by signing this check you agree to pay it back then you are free to cash it and keep the money.

A copy of the check from AI showing a notation in the memo that it was for AOS4 would be evidence of a sortbut that was not presented yet. Still even then AI would have to show documentation of payment in full. none of which was presented so far.

Kgrach

@AmigaHeretic

okay allot of what you say does make sense.

But then why not just cut a check to Hyperion since the lawyers are gonna cost more money then AI will ever make selling AOS4 to the handfull of classic users who still have a working DCE or Phase5 board even if the get all of it for free from Hyperion.

Plus if ACK gets his hardware done. AI will have to hire people to do the code for Adam's board. Again having outside people do this rather than the originals will either take longer or cost more.

Smart move would be to let Hyperion take the work and just collect royalties from both adam and Hyperion.

Again unless it is like you said grab the money from the classic users and if adam gets the work done either leave him hanging or make him do the HAL.

Still all of this looks real short term, No long term planning.

Kgrach

Last edited by kgrach on 25-May-2007 at 07:22 PM.

Quote:

kgrach wrote: @Tigger You claim that you could of done a better and faster Job on OS4.

Where exactly did I say that?

Quote:

But your claimed previous Amiga coding experience shows that to be untrue. Your software had incorrect or poorly written installation scripts.

I doubt you have ever used a program for the Amiga that I wrote the installation script for you arent listed in my database as the owner of any of the programs, so did you not register one of my products, not actually own my product, or did you pirate one of my programs? This should be an interesting answer.

Quote:

Never followed Amiga programming rules or style guidelines. Broke almost every programing rule by replacing system binaries instead of running your own custom ones if really needed. Who’s program was responsible for many Amiga Systems to failure to boot. Not exactly the guy I want coding an Amiga OS.

I'm guessing this is about ImageFX as you whined about before and then didnt pay any attention to my previous answer. I wrote (actually rewrote) the toaster modules and some other low level functions for ImageFX. I had nothing to do with the GUI or the Installer on that program, if you dont like it, etc, please direct your bile on someone who actually was involved in it. In fairness however I'm sure ImageFX outsold any program you wrote for the amiga, and it also outsold any program sold by Hyperion (including OS 4), so I guess Nova was doing something right.

Quote:

The statement really borders on incredibility once you factor in that the OS4 development team is made up of many more coders than just the Friedens. Yet you claim all by yourself you could do it faster and better.

Porting the OS to PPC should not have been a 5 man year effort, much less the 20+ man year effort this turned out to be. It was an OS primarily written in C that they had to move from 68K to PPC, thats not a 10,000 hour job much less the 40K plus hours they seem to have burned on it.

Quote:

Okay show us how good you are write a single USB driver for OS4. That should be child’s play for a coder who claims to be able to write a complete OS with TCP/IP stack, and USB stack in short order.

To do that I would need a computer with OS4, you going to send it to me?

Quote:

You also claim that the Freidens only did a few bad ports of public domain source code. You seemed to have conveniently forgotten their commercial Licensed ports for the Amiga. Shogo MAD, Heretic II, Freespace.

No I said they were known for a few bad ports when they were signed to do the OS, How many of those ports you are raving about were done at that time and even given that they had done great ports of games, why on earth do you pick a company that writes games to do you OS, they are totally different disciplines. Thats not just my opinion, Bernd and Joanna, both who have alot of Amiga experience have said much the same thing over the years.

Quote:

Also again you seem to have conveniently forgotten all of the statements made by Fleecy, Gary and Bill over the last few years that supports Hyperions statements.

What Hyperion statements?
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 25-May-2007 at 08:51 PM.

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Quote:

COBRA wrote: @Tigger Quote: I believe the judge will find that 2.07 only deals with the insolvency under the bankruptcy code You mean the legal term insolvency can mean different things?

No, I mean if you look up on websters insolvency, it says unable to pay the bills, etc, people even talk about cash flow insolvency, I just think that the Judge will consider 2.07 as meaning insolvency as called out in the US bankruptcy code and I think its fairly easy to show that its Assets (IP, Trademarks, etc) exceed the value of its actual external debts (at least those we know about it).

Quote:

From what I have read up so far I got the impression that bankrupcy is what has to be declared by a bankrupcy court, and insolvency is a state which takes place before a bankrupcy, thus it is not required that a company is declared bankrupt, to declare that they were insolvent. So as others pointed out, all that is required is sufficient evidence to prove that AInc were insolvent.

Thats pretty close but usually companies either voluntarily or involuntarily are forced to declare themselves insolvent, and its fairly hard to do with a privately held company with a millionaire sugar daddy (ie Kouri).

Quote:

Is it possible for Hyperion to request during the lawsuit documents from Amiga Inc. as further evidence showing their financial situation at the time? Like bank account balances at different points in time, etc.?

I dont know how they would request them, AI (Washington) is gone as a company, its records may no longer exist. Understand I fully believe that the debt of AI (Washington) is the debt of AI (Delaware) and have been saying that for years, but I dont know how Hyperion could get internal records of a company that no longer exists.
-Tig

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@Tigger

Quote:

Porting the OS to PPC should not have been a 5 man year effort, much less the 20+ man year effort this turned out to be. It was an OS primarily written in C that they had to move from 68K to PPC, thats not a 10,000 hour job much less the 40K plus hours they seem to have burned on it.

There many of 68k modules where unstable, so even if they where written in C they need to be replaced.

* DOS.library
Written in some old outdated program language.

* Exec.library
Outdated and written in 68k assembler, many extra features where added that goes way beyond what some did think where possible whit AmigaOS4.

* Intuition and Graphics library
Designed around AGA chipset, code unusable.

* Trackdisk.device
Unusable need to be replaced depended on classic hardware.

* Scsi.device
Unusable, need to be replaced

* Input.device
Unstable depended on classic Amiga hardware.

* Audio.device
Unstable depended on Paula.

* Timer.device
Unusable, depended on CIAA and CIAB

Now just think of all the AmigaDOS command there are quiet few modules there.

There are quiet few new modules that never before existed in AmigaOS

* new Grim repair (Guru Replacement)
• new TCP/IP stack,
• new USB stack,
• new drivers for USB,
• new drivers for TCP/IP,
• The 68k JIT emulator
• The interpreted 68k emulation
• AmigaDOS commands for TCP/IP
• AmigaDOS commands for USB
• AmigaDOS command for new A1Floppy.device
• AmigaInput the gamepad API whit support for lowlevel.device
* MediaToolBox
* Notepad
* Some New prefs progs
* New Datatypes

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-May-2007 at 10:41 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-May-2007 at 09:16 PM.

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@Tigger

Quote:

It was an OS primarily written in C that they had to move from 68K to PPC, thats not a 10,000 hour job much less the 40K plus hours they seem to have burned on it.

Have you actually seen the sources, so that you can claim this? Everyone who has seen the 3.x sources so far told me he was shocked at how chaotic and unmanagable it was. We know that exec at least was entirely in assembly, thus required a complete rewrite. We also know that much of it was hardcoded to use the Amiga chipsets and those dependencies needed a lot of work to be removed (something which should not have been needed if Escena delivered the originally proposed hw). Backwards compatibility was also difficult to achieve, thanks to the fact that most classic Amiga software exploit undocumented side-effects of the implementation of certain OS functions. Providing 3.9 functionality without the 3.9 sources is also a challenge. Then there's the graphics drivers, disk drivers, TCP/IP stack, USB stack, interpretive emulator, JIT emulator, all had to be written from scratch. We're talking about much, much more than a mere "port some C code to PPC" as you stated. Developing an OS is hardly comparable to coding some modules and functions for a graphics program as you stated you have done.

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: There many of 68k modules where unstable, so even if they where written in C they need to be replaced. [quote] * DOS.library Written in some old outdated program language.

BCPL as I recall. Its not that much different the C, in fact C was based on it to some degree.

Quote:

* Exec.library Outdated and written in 68k assembler, many extra features where added that goes way beyond what some did think where possible whit AmigaOS4.

Absolutely written in 68K assembly as anyone who knew anything about the OS has known for years.

Quote:

* Intuition and Graphics library Designed around AGA chipset, code unusable.

Not true at all just for example see Draco.

Quote:

* Trackdisk.device Unusable need to be replaced depended on classic hardware.

Can you actually use amiga floppies on an AmigaOne?

Quote:

* Scsi.device Unusable, need to be replaced

I used to collect the drivers for different cards on Nasau Beach, and there are at least 20 of them, you honestly arent saying a new SCSI device took a significant effort are you?

Quote:

* Input.device Unstable depended on classic Amiga hardware.

Not really, again see Draco

Quote:

* Audio.device Unstable depended on Paula.

Draco again.

Quote:

* Timer.device Unusable, depended on CIAA and CIAB

Had to be redone, but surely again not a huge effort.

Quote:

Now just think of all the AmigaDOS command there are quiet few models there. There are quiet few new modules that never before existed in AmigaOS * new Grim repair (Guru Replacement) • new TCP/IP stack, • new USB stack, • new drivers for USB, • new drivers for TCP/IP, • The 68k JIT emulator • The interpreted 68k emulation • AmigaDOS command for TCP/IP • AmigaDOS command for USB • AmigaDOS command for new A1Floppy.device • AmigaInput the gamepad API whit support for lowlevel.device

Do you honestly think the above is 1000s of hours of programming? I mean lets be honest we can ask Bernd how long Amithlon took and get a real number from someone besides me.
-Tig

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@Tigger

I have paid for every piece of software I own and all of my downloaded music too.

All of those game ports happened well before the AOS4.0 contract.
Hyperion stepped up to the plate and offered to do the AOS4 port once H&P bowed out.
Nobody else offered to do the port.

You either are ignorant of the Amiga scene or you are purposely distorting the truth.

In one post you say this
Quote:

Porting the OS to PPC should not have been a 5 man year effort, much less the 20+ man year effort this turned out to be. It was an OS primarily written in C that they had to move from 68K to PPC, thats not a 10,000 hour job much less the 40K plus hours they seem to have burned on it.

next post you say this
Quote:

bsolutely written in 68K assembly as anyone who knew anything about the OS has known for years.

The AmigaOS was written in Assembler C and BCPL.

But you knew that so why imply it was a simple C port!

You are also neglecting to mention the Uboot port and HAL for the A1and micro not to mention the monkey wrench Allen threw in by using a new CPU at the end

Kgrach

Last edited by kgrach on 25-May-2007 at 10:10 PM.

I finally got it!

Hyperion's biggest mistake was not making business with Ainc but not letting Tiger do the port instead of Friedens!

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@Tigger

Draco where a hardware clone it where deigned to be compatible, whit AmigaOS, Draco did even have the Zorro slots, this point me to yet an other module that need to be replaced on AmigaOS4 the expansion.Library, expention.library now support the PCI bus.

AmigaOne is basically 7 years old x86 PC technology, where the CPU replaced whit PowerPC CPU, there is nothing AmigaOne has in common whit classic Amiga computers besides the name, Draco has more in common whit Amiga4000 then AmigaOne.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-May-2007 at 10:14 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-May-2007 at 10:08 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-May-2007 at 10:07 PM.

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@Tigger

Quote:

Can you actually use amiga floppies on an AmigaOne?

yes you can, TonyW made the A1Floppy.device.

and I wrote the cw.device you can download cw.device from OS4Depot.

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@Tigger

Quote:

BCPL as I recall. Its not that much different the C, in fact C was based on it to some degree.

You're kidding, right? This is some BCPL code, from the Wikipedia page on BCPL:

GET "libhdr"
 
GLOBAL { count:200; all:201  }
 
LET try(ld, row, rd) BE TEST row=all

                        THEN count := count + 1

                        ELSE { LET poss = all & ~(ld | row | rd)
                               UNTIL poss=0 DO
                               { LET p = poss & -poss
                                 poss := poss - p
                                 try(ld+p > 1)
                               }
                             }

LET start() = VALOF
{ all := 1
  
  FOR i = 1 TO 12 DO
  { count := 0
    try(0, 0, 0)
    writef("Number of solutions to %i2-queens is %i5*n", i, count)
    all := 2*all + 1
  }

  RESULTIS 0
}

@CodeSmith

I think it looks more like Pascal

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 25-May-2007 at 10:17 PM.

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@Tigger

Have you ever used Amiga OS4? If it were just a port then it would look just like Amiga OS 3.5/4.0. It doesn't. It's much more than a simple port. Even the first prerelease was more than just a port, and that version didn't take 5 years to produce.

The Draco includes enough classic Amiga hardware to make use of the 3.1 Roms. They had the CIA chips at least which, AFAIK, are used for timing in intuition and various other modules (possibly for the animation objects in the graphics library too). I have no proper sources to back that up though, so I can't confirm it.

I've never used Amithlon so I have no idea how it compares in functionality to Amiga OS4. I think it's safe to say that the amount of work required was much less. It's based on a modified Linux kernel, did not come with a USB stack, and, the JIT emulator was based on previous work. I can't seem to find out if the exec was rewritten for the x86, or runs under JIT. I'm guessing that it runs under JIT, i.e., no rewrite necessary.

Do you honestly think that writing a new exec, TCP/IP or USB stack is trivial? How about implementing a new memory system? By themselves they might not be a big task, but they add up. I have no idea how many man hours it took because many of the developers were coding in their spare time.

Hans

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@Tigger
Also how do you comment on an OS you don't own or even use Quote:

To do that I would need a computer with OS4, you going to send it to me?

No I won't send you a computer for free. But I do have a uA1 I can sell you so at least you see how fast AOS4 actually is. Better yet I can sell you a fully loaded A1200 in a beautiful tower case. This way you can compare, OS3.1, MOS , OS3.9, OS4.0 on the same platform.

Guess which OS is the fastest?

Kgrach

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote: @stew Quote: Now the people have switched sides. Very entertaining and amusing Quote: Now that I think about it, people have switched on alot of issues That's called "using your brain when new evidence comes to light". Are you suggesting people just make up their minds and "stay the course" regardless of new evidence? Recent history shows that's not exactly a smart thing to do.

No not at all but some were telling us these things (Ainc is insolvent) way back and we did not listen. I even remember the pizzas being sent to prove a point and even after the auction the "it's just unused office furniture". Alot of these facts are not new. Of course it is hard to figure out what is fact and what is revision of the truth, and I tend to hear what I want to hear and disregard the rest (like most people I guess) to my chagrin often. Besides I am easily amused.

@Tigger
You seem to miss the fact that alot of OS4 had to be rewritten from scratch instead of simply ported. You also seem to forget that Hyperion is a small company with limited resources. Maybe we should look at microsoft, that used years just to get millennium out of the door, which was more of a downgrade than upgrade.
At least OS4 is a huge step forward from 3.x

If Draco isn't a good example, perhaps Amithlon is, as the costum chips aren't emulated...

@kgrach
Quote:

Guess which OS is the fastest?

MorphOS?


/me runs

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@Hans

Quote:

I've never used Amithlon so I have no idea how it compares in functionality to Amiga OS4. I think it's safe to say that the amount of work required was much less. It's based on a modified Linux kernel, did not come with a USB stack, and, the JIT emulator was based on previous work. I can't seem to find out if the exec was rewritten for the x86, or runs under JIT. I'm guessing that it runs under JIT, i.e., no rewrite necessary.

No, the work was underneath, and it doesn't mean it was simpler, only the approaches taken were different.

/me wonders if 68k software running on a 3Ghz Amtihlon pc doesn't run faster then PPC on A1...

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