@Tigger

Tigger ... as always ... stick to the truth please

they got 30.000 Euro per Manmonth used for development of ExecSG. As ExecSG is not in development anymore, but kind of finished already for some time, nobody but the Developers and Hyperion know how long development took and how much Hyperion owes them.

You can read it in Article 3.01 of this document:
http://www.merlancia.us/amiga-hyperion/28dechans-jorgfriedenshow_case_doc.pdf

BTW a Manmonth is a rather uncommon scale. It would count down to a manhourprice of about 42 Euros (30 days per month, times 24h per day) A very low rate for contracting programmer development work in my eyes.

Quote:

Sneaky wrote: @Tigger Tigger ... as always ... stick to the truth please they got 30.000 Euro per Manmonth used for development of ExecSG. As ExecSG is not in development anymore, but kind of finished already for some time, nobody but the Developers and Hyperion know how long development took and how much Hyperion owes them.

I am sticking to the truth, Bernd said they were being paid 30K a month, someone implied that was a made up number, I pointed out it was from the contract, the only falsehoods here are by the gentlemen implying the 30K number was made up and you argueing on his side right now.

Quote:

BTW a Manmonth is a rather uncommon scale. It would count down to a manhourprice of about 42 Euros (30 days per month, times 24h per day) A very low rate for contracting programmer development work in my eyes.

BTW a manmonth isnt an uncommon scale, though thats not what this contract is done on, and your rediculous math to make it seem appropriate isnt helping the matter. First of all since the Friedens are a group of 2, the sum would be a 15K per manmonth, secondly it quite clearly calls out that they are to work 400 hours (averaging 200 hours each) per month. Which is paying them 75 Euros an hour they work, per Frieden. Which is a very high rate for people with the Friedens background as we have discussed before.
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Dandy

Quote:

Well, if that's all that needs to be done...

Well that's the super simplified version, but yes that's about it in a nut shell. You have to get a group of creditors (Coupon holders?) to petition for a bankruptcy hearing. I think you're going to need alot more coupon holders to join you to be able to over run Amiga Inc assests at $50 a pop though.

Plaz

@Seehund

... to your second paragraph in post #921.....

Thanks for the laugh and I thought it was a great analysis.

Plaz

@Tigger

And as always, I have to repeat myself.

Quote:

I am sticking to the truth, Bernd said they were being paid 30K a month,

Read the Document Article 3.01 PDF Page 8, Sentence 2. Please do us the favor. We will wait till you are ready ...

Quote:

3.01 Compensation Hyperion shall pay Developers thirty thousand (30.000) euro for each Man Month, ...

...
...
...
finished? Great!

What can we read there? Man month.

Is it the same as you are stating? No.

Why is that so? Because, a man month is only the actual working time on a project, not the time passing by watching the clock and its totally unrelated to how many people work on a project.

Quote:

BTW a manmonth isnt an uncommon scale, though thats not what this contract is done on,

In fact, if you re-read the quote above please... we will wait for you, as we know reading is really hard for you
well, its based on Man Month! What a suprise!!!

And BTW your BTW shows again, that you are overestimating your knowledge, as you show your absolutly wrong interpretation of "man month".

A "man month" is used as a abstraction of workload and calendartime.

Thats why its called (1) Man Month. Its not what a worker works in one Month, but the workload, one worker alone will take 720 hours (one Month) to complete.
If you throw another worker on the project it will complete in half the calendar time, but will be the same workload. One Man Month!

And please, this time for real, read the Article 3.01. Beleive me, you can read there 30.000 euro for each Man Month. Not just month. Man Month! Not calendar month. Man Month.
Here is the link again, for your convenience:
http://www.merlancia.us/amiga-hyperion/28dechans-jorgfriedenshow_case_doc.pdf

And stay happy, we love you after all, as you bring us the joy of eating way too much popcorn

Edit: Typo.

Last edited by Sneaky on 30-May-2007 at 04:21 PM.

@Tigger

Quote:

Bernd said they were being paid 30K a month,

Not really. I said they accrued cost for source access to ExecSG at that rate. The very point of my post was that I strongly suspect they were *not* actually paid, and that thus the $1m+ "development cost" for OS4 is just as virtual as the A$269 "repair cost" for a tiny bumper bar scrape on the rental minivan I returned last month. I stronly suspect neither has ever actually been paid.


And *of course* the Friedens did not spend 5 years on ExecSG to accrue $1m cost --- 5 years straight would accrue 1.8 million Euros; Hyperion claims roughly half that for all of OS4, so chances are, the Friedens could claim about 24 man-months (of the oddly-named 400 hour "man months" of their contract), for 720,000 Euro.

What I am saying is that Hyperion might have used this "cost" (which it appears they have not paid, which they are under absolutely no obligation at this point to ever pay) to make OS4 look big and scarily expensive. Of course, they at the same time claim that OS4 does not include sources to ExecSG.

Mind you, there is nothing inherently wrong with that sort of thing, if you can get away with it. The first time I went to study in Australia, I had to prove that I could support myself; To do so, I showed the exact same DM 5000,-- three times, for a total of DM 15,000 --- once as a commitment from my scholarship organisation, once on my account statement, and once as a receipt for tuition fees from the Australian university.
That the immigration department saw evidence for DM 15,000 does not mean I ever had any more than DM 5,000, it just means I juggled the numbers a bit. Hyperion, I suspect, are doing the same.

@Sneaky

Quote:

What can we read there? Man month.

Yes, indeed. "Man Month", capitalised. Which means there is a definition of the phrase to be found somewhere else in the document. And indeed, there is, in 2.01. It (quite unusually) refers to 400 hours of actual work, which is (once again, according to the document) the minimum amount of time the Friedens are supposed to put in between them *EACH MONTH*.

So if they are paid E30k for each "Man Month", and "Man Month" is defined as 400 hours of work, and 400 hours is the minimum amount of work the Friedens agree to work on ExecSG each month --- then tell me, how much are the Friedens paid for each month of work on ExecSG?

(a) less than E30k,
(b) E30k , or
(c) at least, but possibly more than, E30k

(Note: "paid" of course refers to an increase in price for a source code license for ExecSG, not actual payment)

Last edited by umisef on 30-May-2007 at 04:30 PM.

@Tigger

History repeating... as it always does in Amiga land

Amiga Inc. has no money. Hyperion has no money. So it doesn't matter.


*Amiga Inc., didn't pay their employees. - See Bolton Peck

*BBRV didn't pay his employees - See http://www.morphos.net/

*The Friedens contract might as well say they get $1,000,000.00 a month as they aren't going to get paid either.

So what does it mater in the end?

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Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

@Cravan

Quote:

Cravan wrote: @abalaban first, IANAL! ...

If you use abbrevations like "IANAL" , would you please care to explain its meaning to us non-native English speakers?

I mean - I know the words "I" and "anal" - but I don't think you're referring to them...

Thank you.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Although I'm no nativ speaker neither, the abbreviation stands for "I am not a lawyer"

But everytime I read it I get the same impression you got, first ;)

@Ketzer

Quote:

Ketzer wrote: @kgrach Quote: Why the sudden interest in AOS4? Sudden? The interest is there at least since April 2003 (attempted buyback). ...

Hmmm - then tell me please why AInc still last year had it on their web pages that they are "focussing on the mobile market" (->AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE).
That they were working on a so called "Internet OS"?

I've heard and read from them several times - even on their own webpages - that they are not interested in the Amiga as a desktop system.

So please don't tell us they were interested in itsince April 2003!

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Sneaky

Quote:

Sneaky wrote: @Tigger Tigger ... as always ... stick to the truth please they got 30.000 Euro per Manmonth used for development of ExecSG. As ExecSG is not in development anymore, but kind of finished already for some time, nobody but the Developers and Hyperion know how long development took and how much Hyperion owes them.

A Hyperion debt of 750,000 (dollars?) to Hans-Jörg and Thomas has been mentioned in court documents.

Quote:

You can read it in Article 3.01 of this document: http://www.merlancia.us/amiga-hyperion/28dechans-jorgfriedenshow_case_doc.pdf BTW a Manmonth is a rather uncommon scale. It would count down to a manhourprice of about 42 Euros (30 days per month, times 24h per day) A very low rate for contracting programmer development work in my eyes.

"The Developers" are Hans-Jörg and Thomas *collectively*, meaning 30,000/2=15,000 each.

A "Manmonth" for "the Developers" (HJ & T *collectively*) is defined to be "no less than 400 Hours". This means 200 hours per person and month; 10 workhours a day, 5 days a week for 4 weeks equals to 200 hours.

Long work days for sure, but I don't agree with your view that this 15,000 Euro per month is "a very low rate" of compensation, not even when reasoning like "a contract worker may have idle periods *between* contracts that must be covered". Especially not in Amiga land!

Now this is an invoiced sum, before any income tax and social welfare costs (I assume that you have to pay tax in Germany too? ), so you can't compare it to a normal workers salary without deducting this. How much is income taxes and social welfare costs in Germany? Just for the argumentation, let's assume you will have to remove half of the invoiced sum (I have no idea how reasonable that assumption is); that will still mean 7,500 Euros each, *after* tax, in their pockets ready to be spent, every month. That's a lot of Big Macs. In rough terms it is *about twice* what a regular member of the Swedish Parliament have left after taxes in a month.

Quote:

Dandy wrote: Hmmm - then tell me please why AInc still last year had it on their web pages that they are "focussing on the mobile market" (->AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE). That they were working on a so called "Internet OS"? I've heard and read from them several times - even on their own webpages - that they are not interested in the Amiga as a desktop system. So please don't tell us they were interested in itsince April 2003!

Well, let me take a wild guess. Because they indeed are focusing on the mobile market? Does that mean they arent interested in a desktop? No. It simply means that buisness wise Amiga believe that the mobile market makes more sense to focus on. Given the number of potential customers for each, you dont really want to argue about that do you.

What you "have heard" I dont care about. What I know is that Amiga has paid money for it in April 2003, so they unambiguosly are interested in it, at least since then.

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: Quote: Dandy wrote: @umisef Hmmmmm - let me calculate: 5 years work for the twins = 60 months x 2 people = 120 months alltogether 1.000.000 $ / 120 months = 8333,3333333333333333333333$ per month So I'd say your claim that the Friedens got "E30k per month" is rather far-fetched... Hmmmm, let me read the contract. E30K per month, hey I bet thats why people think that. -Tig

Well - in the post I originally answered to CodeSmith stated: "They have spent over a million on OS4..." and umisef's reply to this was: "A large part of that money is probably the accrued cost of the Friedens at E30k per month."

So I thought he meant that the 30.000¤/month resulted from using the 1.000.000 (¤, I assume) to pay the wages for the twins over a period of 5 years - I wasn't aware of the contract.

As I felt that 30k was too much to be the correct result, I did a quick recalculation, which indeed resulted in a much lesser sum (8333,33¤)...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@umisef


Quote:

Yes, indeed. "Man Month", capitalised. Which means there is a definition of the phrase to be found somewhere else in the document. And indeed, there is, in 2.01. It (quite unusually) refers to 400 hours of actual work, which is (once again, according to the document) the minimum amount of time the Friedens are supposed to put in between them *EACH MONTH*.

OK, you right. Diddn't see that one.

Sorry Tigger, my apology.

@Ketzer

Quote:

Ketzer wrote: Quote: Dandy wrote: Hmmm - then tell me please why AInc still last year had it on their web pages that they are "focussing on the mobile market" (->AmigaAnywhere/AmigaDE). That they were working on a so called "Internet OS"? I've heard and read from them several times - even on their own webpages - that they are not interested in the Amiga as a desktop system. So please don't tell us they were interested in itsince April 2003! Well, let me take a wild guess. Because they indeed are focusing on the mobile market? Does that mean they arent interested in a desktop? No.

If you're exclusively looking at "focussing on the mobile market" I agree with your "No".

Quote:

Ketzer wrote: It simply means that buisness wise Amiga believe that the mobile market makes more sense to focus on. Given the number of potential customers for each, you dont really want to argue about that do you.

I somehow got the feeling you're comparing apples and peaches.

If I got you right, you mean that the mobile phonie market has more potential customers than the Amiga desktop computer market.

But as long as you don't refer to the Amiga mobile phonie market (which does not exist up to now, AFAIK), I'm afraid you're comparing apples and peaches.

If you drop "Amiga" in both cases, what's left is billions of potential customers in the mobile phonie market vs. billions of potential customers in the desktop computer market - so my feeling is it's hard to say which market is more promising.

Quote:

Ketzer wrote: What you "have heard" I dont care about.

That's O.K. - but perhaps you care about the fact that it could be found on AInc's own web pages - even last year.

Quote:

Ketzer wrote: ..., so they unambiguosly are interested in it, at least since then.

This is what I highly doubt - as they stated publically on their own website (and on several other occasions) that they are not related to OS4 in any way ("we don't code it, we don't market or distribute it - it's all up to the "Amiga One partners"") and not interested in AmigaOS as desktop OS and would focus on the mobile devices instead.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

removed obsolete statement

Markus

Last edited by che on 31-May-2007 at 03:13 PM.

_________________

Wow, what a long thread!

Speaking for DiscreetFX all I can say is I hope this legal situation gets resolved quickly. There seems to be many in the computer industry that are attempting to rewrite history and not even mention the Amiga at all. The recent Steve Jobs & Bill Gates joint interview mentions the Amiga zero times.

http://d5.allthingsd.com/20070530/steve-jobs-and-bill-gates-together-part-1-of-7/

It would be nice for the Amiga to return in some form and again sell millions. It might stop the revisionist history writing that has been going on for some time that eliminates the great accomplishments that the Amiga made for the industry. The Amiga was way ahead of it's time and had many firsts for a affordable computer.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

@kgrach

Kurt

You and everyone else always seem to forget how Ainc snubbed the MOS guys and Olaf Barthel screwed over Ralph et al.... MOS should have been OS4 from the start and we would have avoided all these stupid petty arguments and wars and would have a nice Amiga Os.

BTW wait until MOS 2.0 comes out and then there will be no question which is the best Amiga compatible os..

realize

@Seehund

You still don't get it? You still repeating your anti-hardware-licensing-scheme propagande like a broken record? C'mon on, this lawsuit actually demonstrates the neccessity of the hardware-licensing scheme. Just read the documents!

Oh yeah, you still believe they would've been more successful if they had ignored those wanting to make AmigaOS4 dedicated hardware and simply released the AmigaOS4 as a standalone OS, developed for some kind of generic PPC hardware standard that doesn't exist and hope that compatible hardware would somehow appear on it's own...

Well, either that, or that they should have developed for the PPC hardware that did exist, like PPC macs for example, and without some form of cooperation with the hardware manufacturer, simply hope that the hardware is still up-to-date, available and supported by the time the OS is ready for release. With the example of PPC macs; we all know today that they would have hoped in vain. Perhaps PPC macs are a bit easier to find on ebay, but it still makes no sense to market a commercial OS for no longer manufactured hardware. It's simply not a viable business plan.

What they need is strategical partnerships, like they had with Eyetech, like they have today with ACK and like they would also want with ACube. In other words, they need a hardware licensing scheme.

It's sad that you refuse to realize the reality of the situation, back then as well as today, despite the numerous times people have tried to explain it to you. I'm guessing this little rant will make no change to your opinion either... *sigh*

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