@jorkany

Quote:

Maybe next time around (OS5? OS6?) the community should support whoever it was that said "we can".

You must be thinking of a Honda advert. The words I heard from Amiga were:

" ..."

Last edited by clebin on 30-May-2007 at 07:52 PM.

@Seehund

Quote:

(BTW, if you really want to split hairs, I wrote "P[ower]PC", which is only one branch of the Power Architecture tree, with Cell and others being yet other branches. That shortens your list of rather irrelevant examples even further. But never mind.)

Do you meant like Itanium (IA64), xeon (EMT64), turion and opteron (AMD64), Trasnmeta crusoe and Via Cx are branch of the x86 architecture?

Please.................

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@Shadowolf

Quote:

Exhibit 'M' is ridiculous.

What happens when we get past exhibit Z? Do we use Hex?

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Sam

@stew

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OK I conceed, they did not DO the port, they just Helped with the port. Makes all the difference to some I guess.

I've seen some mention that the Friedens had provided some hints of what to look for and what to provide in whatever loader environment this italian coder was working on for OS4 to run on top of it. Sorry, but to me that honestly is not the same as the Friedens or Hyperion "proper" writing code themselves, peeking registers themselves, reading Linux/BSD code themselves, or doing other laboriuos things involved themselves. Saying what to look for is very different than actually looking for it. Saying what the code should do is very different than writing that code. Yes, saying what to look for and what to provide is some level of "help". But it's also WAY WAY less work than actually doing the reverse engineering labor or the coding labor, and this labor is what has been refused by Hyperion and/or the Friedens in the past.

From what I've heard, this labor is exactly what Hyperion and/or the Friedens indeed did not do, this is what the mystery italian coder was doing. Making the firmware environment fit. Making drivers for IDE, audio, etc. Figuring out where everything is in the memory map, and presenting that info to OS4 for driver association and preparation. That's a lot of work NOT done by Hyperion/Friedens, and OS4 would never work on that hardware if it wasn't done.

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jorkany:
""we can't, we can't" while obviously SOMEBODY ELSE out there said "we can". "

Maybe the two Friedens aren't skilled enough to port
AmigaOS 4.0 to Apple hardware? If so, they didn't lie.

@ironfist

Seriously, are you always trying to pick a fight? Skill has nothing to do with this and you know that, but you are still trying your best to insult people. Just because I say 'I cannot do this' doesn't mean I am not skilled to do so. I might be hindered by other reasons, such as NDA's, contractual obligations etc.
Is that so hard to understand?

@ironfist

Quote:

Maybe the two Friedens aren't skilled enough to port AmigaOS 4.0 to Apple hardware? If so, they didn't lie.

When I talked to them a couple years ago to propose something for iBook support, what I was told was not of the "we can not do it" variety. It was more of lack of interest in the level of effort, in terms of their own time and energy, in doing the reverse-engineering work to learn what needs coded, and then doing the coding, and also of concerns about license issues if they had to refer to Linux code very often to help explain what was going on, and finally, of concerns that Apple may not approve and get involved with something to prevent it from completing, since it would be such a small and easy target in court for a company as big as Apple to make Hyperion "go away". That was far more of the "we're not interested in the effort required" category, and I never got the impression they felt it was not possible to do, only that it was not practical to be worth doing by and for themselves or in return for the requested 20000euro fee.

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@jorkany

Quote:

lol! Go ahead and believe whatever you like Saimo. I don't think even you can deny that the Friedens are all about "we can't, we can't" while obviously SOMEBODY ELSE out there said "we can".

At first, I was about to reply, pointing out how void, provoking and sad your words are. But then, I thought: "He would just ignore or twist my reply - like he did until now - so what should I really do?" - and the following wise words came to mind:
Quote:

Trolls show no respect for other people's opinions and deliberately crafts messages to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy or just to cause anger and confrontations. There is no point in arguing with them; their minds are made up. Ignore them, and report the posts immediately to an Amigaworld Team Member.

saimo

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@billt

Theimpression I got, as a layman, was that the business side was nothing to do with them - if the licensing were resolved and they were paid appropriately, they would do the port. It makes sense that the 20,000 figure is dependent on hardware docs being available.

The conversation just shows the total confusion and lack of leadership higher up...

Chris

@jorkany

Quote:

lol! Go ahead and believe whatever you like Saimo. I don't think even you can deny that the Friedens are all about "we can't, we can't" while obviously SOMEBODY ELSE out there said "we can".

I don't think it had anything to do with CAN or CAN'T. As billt pointed out it probably
had to do with alot of things.
WON'T probably fits more to this case, or even WON'T TAKE A CHANCE.

Look what happended with this port. Nothing came out of it even if Acube had OS4
booting of the MacMini. How much money and time did they spend on this project
before it was shut down? You can understand why Hyperion wouldn't want to take
that chance.

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Avatar by HNL_DK!

It has never really been a secret that Hyperion has been against a X86 and a Mac port.

@Tomas

x86, yes. I remember the Friedens expressing a distaste for the architecture. I don't remember them ever saying anything about Mac other than "we don't want to reverse engineer Linux"

@Tomas

Quote:

It has never really been a secret that Hyperion has been against a X86 and a Mac port

Which once again illustrates the fact that it's not clear who's doing the decision making. Typically software companies run on the basis of cost and revenue, not the technologies that the developers prefer.

For that matter, it's never been obvious why any of the post-Commodore suitors chose anything other than x86 chips either, apart from wanting to be different and completely ignoring what the rest of the world was doing.

@ne_one

Quote:

For that matter, it's never been obvious why any of the post-Commodore suitors chose anything other than x86 chips either, apart from wanting to be different and completely ignoring what the rest of the world was doing.

If the rest of the world will poison themselves and suicide you will follow themselves?

If the rest of the world will say you: «Launch yourself from the top of that building!» then you will accomplish with pleasure?

the "rest" of the world could be wrong sometimes.

Freedom has a price to be payed.

LOL!

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@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: @Seehund Quote: (BTW, if you really want to split hairs, I wrote "P[ower]PC", which is only one branch of the Power Architecture tree, with Cell and others being yet other branches. That shortens your list of rather irrelevant examples even further. But never mind.) Do you meant like Itanium (IA64), xeon (EMT64), turion and opteron (AMD64), Trasnmeta crusoe and Via Cx are branch of the x86 architecture? Please.................

With some differences. Xeon/Core2 (Real86/IA-32/EMT64/X64), Athlob64/Turion/Opteron/Phenom (Real86/IA-32/AMD64/X64), Transmeta Efficeon (Real86/IA-32/AMD64/X64) and Via Cx (Real86/IA-32) based PCs are all unified by a boot/eco-system standard e.g. install and run MS Windows 95/98/NT4.

MS Windows 95/98/NT4 (X86 edition)was release before X64 based PCs. Samething can't be said for Windows NT 4.0 PowerPC edition for PPC platforms.

Until PPC stakeholders fixes it’s fragmented issues, PPC wouldn't pose a serious threat against the X86 Collective/Union/United States/Federation. PPC market mirrors the fragmented 68K based PC market.

Last edited by Hammer on 31-May-2007 at 09:02 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 31-May-2007 at 09:01 AM.

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@ne_one
Quote:

For that matter, it's never been obvious why any of the post-Commodore suitors chose anything other than x86 chips either, apart from wanting to be different and completely ignoring what the rest of the world was doing.

IMHO the answer is quite simple actually: apart from some technical issues like endianess (but are they really that difficult to circumvent?!) they wanted to keep tight control of the HW.

Of course this way it's quite easy to limit piracy since the "Amiga" motherboard acts as a mega dongle, and if you're able to sell your product maybe you will earn some $$$, too.

But IMHO this strategy is seriously flawed because since the proprietary motherboard (which by the way was not revolutionary like the C= Amiga was, it had nothing special, basically x86 architecture but with a PPC CPU onboard) enormously limits the theoretical buyers due to its price (and yes I know of the small production runs which in turn forced high retail prices, but as a user I just want to pay as little as possible)

In short, AInc's desire to decide on which HW OS4 run is one of the main reasons, apart from highly likely Apple disapproval, that I don't think the MacMini port would have been licensed. Sadly.

@saimo

And in which way exactly do you separate yourself from the words you put up to attack others? You have no moral grounds to stand for saimo, not even close.

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@Raffaele

Quote:

If the rest of the world will poison themselves and suicide you will follow themselves?

And obviously Amiga's path has been the right one, isn't that obvious...

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@jorkany

Quote:

jorkany wrote: @saimo Quote: In a nutshell, they did not lie. lol! Go ahead and believe whatever you like Saimo. I don't think even you can deny that the Friedens are all about "we can't, we can't" while obviously SOMEBODY ELSE out there said "we can".

I must say that Saimo has replied you with valid points, not just claiming "I'm right and I want to believe it". He has repeatedly stated (likewise Samwel with his latest post) that the Friedens don't WANT to accept this task, not that they CAN'T from a technical point of view.

Varthall

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@ne_one

Quote:

For that matter, it's never been obvious why any of the post-Commodore suitors chose anything other than x86 chips either, apart from wanting to be different and completely ignoring what the rest of the world was doing.

13 years ago the PC market was very different, workstations were dominated by RISC processors and they were all faster than x86 machines. Alternate OSs on the PC had always been there but back then had pretty much 0% of the market, going up against Microsoft in those days on it's turf would have been a sure recipe for failure. e.g. BeOS.

You would have expected to sell a decent number of machines then easily enough to cover custom motherboards. PCs hadn't been commoditised as much as today so x86 would have had no particular advantage.

Last edited by minator on 31-May-2007 at 02:07 PM.

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