@polka.

Ok, so what? My statement still stands - -They're stating what will be, what they're currently working on, why do you and everyone else here feel like you're owed something? I don't feel cheated one bit. I, just like all of you, am waiting for something to come out, that bears the name Amiga; be it actual hardware with an Amiga OS or, like I've stated many times, an OS only Amiga that runs on X86 hardware. As usual, this is just my opinion, but I feel it has merit, because too many people on this website have conspiracy theories and have Amiga withdrawals and feel they need to blame so and so from XX company that it's their fault, or Bill XX from where ever, that it was his fault for not following up on that thing-a-ma-jig. I mean really, we all can sit here and daydream up what might have happened, what will happen based on someone's postings; but the bottom line is this - we can't do a thing about it, and unless we've paid something for a service, software, hardware--we are owed NOTHING.

Ed

_________________
Amiga 1200 - ACA 1233 68030 128MB Ram
8GB CF With tons of Classics

AmigaOne X5000

Raspberry PI 400 - PiMiga 1.5
"That which doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger" - Someone important, but I forgot who

@edponpon

My sentiments exactly.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@Moxee:
>Broken promises may be, but please do not call people liars.

Sorry, but the PowerVixxen-issue was a lie (PowerVixxen is ready for shipping, only the manuals are missing).

_________________
AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

@polka.

Quote:

No matter how you reinterpret ACKs plain and simple statements ("has gone in production" "availability end of January") it is very clear that he _lied_ at that time.

That is not clear at all to me. Could you prove such a proposition in court? I consider Adam simply said what he thought he could do at the time.

and I quite agree with edponpon

Noel

@NoelFulle: >I consider Adam simply said what he thought he could do at the time.

No, he said the only thing that prevents the PowerVixxen from shipping are the manuals. This was a clear statement (and obviously not true).

_________________
AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

@AP

But then he found he had issues with it and kept on at the development for months.

Noel

@edponpon

Quote:

They're stating what will be, what they're currently working on, why do you and everyone else here feel like you're owed something?

Where did I say that? I never said that I am owed something. Please stop making things up.

@AP

Quote:

Sorry, but the PowerVixxen-issue was a lie (PowerVixxen is ready for shipping, only the manuals are missing).

Yes, it was a lie. Not a nice thing to say, but why neglect the facts and make something up only to circumvent the use of the word "lie"? It was a lie and the facts are out there, plain and simple.

Quote:

No, he said the only thing that prevents the PowerVixxen from shipping are the manuals. This was a clear statement (and obviously not true).

Indeed, especially because he didn't have any CPU connectors. Months later he posted on Amiga.org asking if people knew where or how to get these connectors. Then Jens stepped in to help, but he was scammed by Adam who didn't paid him for the product samples and ignored his emails. Just like he scammed the user who posted here that Adam doesn't send back his board.
Even Troika mentioned problems with Adam and that he broke an Amy-sample of them and didn't send it back. How much more testimonies do we need?

@NoelFuller

Quote:

I consider Adam simply said what he thought he could do at the time.

Nope. Adam didn't say what "he thought he could do at that time". He said what _he was doing_ and there is no way in hell he could have been doing that (producing the Powervixxen) with all the facts that we have now. Also see Jens Schoenfelds statement about Adam and the timeline in relationship to his "in production" statement. Adam lied.

Last edited by polka. on 25-Jun-2007 at 01:52 PM.
Last edited by polka. on 25-Jun-2007 at 01:48 PM.
Last edited by polka. on 25-Jun-2007 at 01:47 PM.
Last edited by polka. on 25-Jun-2007 at 01:43 PM.

_________________
This signature is in the middle of a much needed facelift!

@polka.

Dude, I'm not saying you said that. I'm stating what everyone is "acting" like. Everyone is acting like their owed something. I say that because of how passionate and personal people are making this. I'm not being a pessimist, nor an optimist, just a realist. Adam is working on boards; Amiga Inc posted it on their site, that's it. Plain and simple. Now we wait for XX months, years, etc. Sit back and wait, because THAT'S ALL we can do.

Ed

_________________
Amiga 1200 - ACA 1233 68030 128MB Ram
8GB CF With tons of Classics

AmigaOne X5000

Raspberry PI 400 - PiMiga 1.5
"That which doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger" - Someone important, but I forgot who

@edponpon

Quote:

What makes any of you think you're owed anything from Adam or Amiga Inc? Just because we all liked/loved Amiga back in the day, because we're all hoping for a new machine to go with the elusive OS4 and because Adam and Amiga Inc post that new boards are on the way, DOES NOT mean that we're owed anything. They're stating what will be. No one here made pre-purchases (like we really could anyhow) no one here was personally promised a thing. Just sit back and watch what will unfold.

(Well, as far as Amiga Inc. is concerned people certainly made pre-purchases in the form of two sets of coupons sold but that is another story. I'll skip commenting on Amiga Inc. more, just ACK.)

I don't know if I'd use the word "owe" us, sounds maybe a bit strong, but I think ACK has some responsibility due to the marketing announcements they make. These announcements have certainly had an effect in some people holding their purchases to wait for ACK products. I do not think it is unreasonable to request them to explain themselves and provide, with this track-record, more information.

Had they not announced time and time again things to us obviously they'd have no responsibility towards us. But now that they have continued their marketing efforts towards us, I'd see at least a moral responsibility in explaining themselves a bit better when they continue to fail in delivering.
I don't think it is polite to come here announcing this and that time and time again, cancelling presentations right before they were supposed to be given etc., and then basically giving everyone the silent treatment. As people expect good manners from me, I think I am entitled to expect them from others as well. Trolling and unsubstantiated claims are not tolerated here, why would unsubstantiated announcements be...

Given the reputation ACK is gathering here I'd say explaining themselves a bit better would be good business too, not just good manners. All these people don't questions ACK's actions for nothing.

@edponpon

Quote:

Adam is working on boards; Amiga Inc posted it on their site, that's it. Plain and simple.

Plain and simple? No, we don't know if Adam is working on any hardware. He has failed to show us any proof of his work for 2.5 years now, so I have no reasons to believe that the current announcement is anything more than a tool for the lawsuit.

_________________
This signature is in the middle of a much needed facelift!

@edponpon

Quote:

Sit back and wait, because THAT'S ALL we can do.

Of course it is not all we can do. We can hold these companies accountable for their announcements in public discussion and hopefully have some (hopefully positive) impact with that. If nothing more, we can expand our own understanding and make more informed decisions (say, how long to wait for ACK before buying elsewhere or something like that). Having these things go unchecked for years and years within this community and market will do us no good, we'd be just deluding ourselves like we often were. Trying to wipe uncomfortable things under the carpet would be a mistake IMHO.

"The best way for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." This community has been fed all kinds of daydreams and half-truths for years, I for one welcome a different approach - I don't think there is anything wrong in asking people who want to market to us to earn our respect, trust and interest. I know not all agree, but I think it is good that there are those who do agree and that is, I guess, one reason we have these kinds of conversations.

I'm not trying to save anyone, nor have I any personal agenda or grief with ACK. I know I have only time to comment on few discussions here and there, and I'm trying to contribute my information and analysis to the public debate. Maybe some understanding comes from that, maybe not. At least I am learning more and more myself. Like samface who seems to agree so often says of himself, I too usually only respond to other people making comments. Obviously this topic carries enough controversy to sustain a debate because people are saying things that IMHO disagree with public events and so a debate ensues to reach understanding (or not).

Same goes for companies like Genesi and Amiga Inc. All of these have had legitimate issues to discuss, which could have been wiped under the carpet like you suggest, but I think that would have been a great disservice for this community. We need realistic outlook and information of these companies. You call yourself a realist, yet would prefer not to seek realistic information about them via public discourse and just sit and wait? I don't see how one can be a realist without pursuit for as real a picture of the events of possible.

I for one have learned a lot from this thread about ACK. Also things that I sympathize with, because not all details were known to me. This would not have been possible without this discussion.

@polka.

Quote:

Plain and simple? No, we don't know if Adam is working on any hardware. He has failed to show us any proof of his work for 2.5 years now, so I have no reasons to believe that the current announcement is anything more than a tool for the lawsuit.

This is exactly why I say, people here feel they're owed something. You now feel that you're owed proof. Adam is stating that he is working on boards and I'd have to take his word, since I don't know him personally. For all of us to demand proof, again, falls back to saying we're owed something. I don't feel that I am. IF he says he's got boards for the future and that Amiga will sell them with OS 4,5, etc, FINE. I'll look at it with great interest and possibly buy one. If they ( Adam and Amiga Inc ) don't have jack!@#$ to sell, then it's their loss. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Stop taking this personal, it's definitely not. I just find this and many other threads pretty humorous since some people are taking this too personal over a computer that may or may not exist in the near/distant future. Thanks.

Ed

_________________
Amiga 1200 - ACA 1233 68030 128MB Ram
8GB CF With tons of Classics

AmigaOne X5000

Raspberry PI 400 - PiMiga 1.5
"That which doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger" - Someone important, but I forgot who

@polka.

Quote:

Plain and simple? No, we don't know if Adam is working on any hardware. He has failed to show us any proof of his work for 2.5 years now, so I have no reasons to believe that the current announcement is anything more than a tool for the lawsuit.

I think it is clear that some participants to this discussion do not with to publicly acknowledge the possibility that ACK lied to us when they told us PowerVixxen went into production, but would rather tip-toe around the issue as much as possible.

I guess there is no point trying to further make that point, I'd say anyone with an open mind already sees that it is quite possible we were lied to, but also acknowledges that perhaps there is some other explanation. That is my opinion, I know some disagree.

I doubt we'll get those who have so far chosen not to acknowledge the former possibility to acknowledge it now, I think I'll move on from that point.

@edponpon

Quote:

This is exactly why I say, people here feel they're owed something

I think you are right in saying some people don't share you indifference towards what ACK or any company announces here.

@edponpon

Quote:

I'm not being a pessimist, nor an optimist, just a realist. Adam is working on boards; Amiga Inc posted it on their site, that's it. Plain and simple.

Your arguement seems to suggest that if something is ever announced by Amiga on their website that it is the case, without reason for any doubt.

On its face I can't see how such an arguement could have any merit. Even if a company had a good track record, to state that without additional first hand knowledge one can not do so definitively.

Also do you apply this logic to other statements made on other websites outside of Amiga's? What would you do if two websites voiced opposing things?

You seem to be crafting a post to demean the thought of people taking time to voice their direct opinions when it comes to things the public was promised. When a company promises the public something on some levels they owe on fulfilling the promise, especially if they make repeated promises. If they don't fulfill the promise they certainly should be questioned when they continue in such behavior. The company is engaging the buying public of its own accord. And good customer service would be to answer simple questions when it comes to episodes of not previously meeting self imposed goals announced to the public. These annoucements are to drum up excitement for the wares they seek to make money on. They are seeking to make the announcements matter to the public, yet for an unspecificed reason we should not question that which ACK Software Controls wanted us to have a desire for as products, both in the past and present?

I don't see how that flys.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

I can see why Samface has issues with you. My statement is plain and simple to read and understand. Let me try this again, for all;

1- Amiga Inc posted specs for new hardware for a thing called a computer
2- Adam from Ack Software said he was working on it
3- The Amiga site said it would have this -

Power Design Details from ACK Software Controls and Amiga
Power level product ready for Customers Winter 2007
Issaquah, Wash and Fonthill, ON Canada – May 7, 2007 – ACK Software Controls, Inc. and Amiga, Inc. are pleased to announce the specifications for the new Power System.

“While targeting the needs of today, we wanted to challenge ourselves to design for the future as well.”, said Adam Kowalczyk President of ACK Software Controls, Inc.

This new system will be offered at a suggested retail price of $1498.00 and be a complete offering excluding monitor in a finished design that will provide customers with everything they need to get started.

Power Design Specifications PowerPC board:

Based on the P.A. Semi PWRficient PA6T-1682M dual core 64 bit CPUs clocked at 2GHz.
RoHS compliant ATX form factor.
Four (4) DDR2 DIMM slots.
One (1) PCI Express x16 slot for high performance graphics cards.
One (1) PCI Express x2 slot for high performance I/O cards.
One (1) PCI Express x1 slot for standard I/O cards.
One (1) PCI 32 bit slot for legacy cards.
Six (6) USB 2.0 ports.
Two (2) Gb Ethernet ports.
Two (2) UART ports for serial connectivity and debug.
One 8Mb Flash EEPROM containing U-Boot firmware.
Four (4) SATA II ports based on the Silicon Image SiI3132 (x2) .
“This new design offers the Amiga user a new choice in hardware. Amiga believes that this new system will address the needs of the Amiga user today and into the near future.”, said Bill McEwen of Amiga, Inc.

About Amiga
Amiga, Inc., founded in 1983, is a computer software company, building on their legacy by leading the way in multimedia development and providing developers with hardware-independent technologies for writing and porting applications to new platforms and interactive devices. For almost two decades its award-winning software has been a mainstay for motion picture studios, multimedia creators, and digital entertainment enthusiasts around the world. For more information, visit www.amiga.com.

About ACK
ACK Software Controls, Inc. specializes in the area of embedded controls design for use in automation systems where low-power consumption and reliability is an absolute must. Concentrating on design for manufacturing with local manufacturing facilities has allowed ACK to quickly and cost-effectively develop solutions for customers with low-volume requirements. By integrating hardware, firmware, and device driver engineering capability in-house, ACK can provide complete turn-key solutions to customers.

4- NO WHERE, does it say Amiga Inc or Adam PROMISES anything. Period.
5- If you feel you're being cheated, lied to, etc, fine, DON'T BUY ANYTHING from either of them. Period.
Why is this so hard to get? Why do people continue to ramble on and on about the "promises" made by both parties?
As for me, I'm not demeaning anyone, simple stating a FACT. I'm not crying about a promise made, nor am I owed a thing. Yes, I do agree with you and others, that if a company makes claims, they should, key word - SHOULD, back up those claims. But they're not obligated to do so, nor do they OWE us an explanation. So my stance on actions like that are, fine, you don't show me anything, or tell me anything, I won't buy anything. Plain and simple, yet again.


Ed

_________________
Amiga 1200 - ACA 1233 68030 128MB Ram
8GB CF With tons of Classics

AmigaOne X5000

Raspberry PI 400 - PiMiga 1.5
"That which doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger" - Someone important, but I forgot who

@NoelFuller

Quote:

NoelFuller wrote: @Boot_WB I am aware of all these things including much that has been said on IRC and gone unpublished. Amiga Inc thought they were going to have a walkover. Ack believed them. What has changed is that it's not a walkover whatever the outcome. Ack was told first to go ahead regardless, then he acknowledged there would be some slippage, then he apparently was told to taihoa - that's Maori for wait a bit, put things on hold.

We have no evidence that Amiga thought they were going to have a walkover. And even if they did what was to be gained to make announcements before a presumed "walkover" instead of shortly after said (presumably quick) walkover. What is to be gained by definitive timetables, that were highly aggressive in such a situation and probably still agressive even if the situation of the case did not exist, vs. a few months later when there would be no obstacles after this "walkover"?

If we are to assume things it seems more likely to me, IMHO, that the announcments with ACK were for props for the case, so that Amiga can show lost business opportunties at the hands of Hyperion holding back OS4 sources. Which on this point as I read it you agree with.

Its also important to note that we have no updated announcements that any timetables have changed on Amiga.com for release of either model to end users. As it stands both machines are still set for release on the original timetables.

If any company expects all of its customer base to stay intimate with pending litigation that it or its partners are in, at a high degree of detail, I would say that is ridiculous. Let alone for it to make legal analysis on its own, drawing conclusions as to how the company or its partners will act, when said company has already established press releases as a channel of communication to keep its buying public informed and when its obvious that the *portion* of the customerbase that does try to keep up does not even agree on points of fact let alone interpretations.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Jun-2007 at 03:35 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Jun-2007 at 03:33 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@edponpon

Quote:

4- NO WHERE, does it say Amiga Inc or Adam PROMISES anything. Period.

promise (dictionary)

Quote:

Definition: verb 1. transitive and intransitive verb vow: to assure somebody that something will certainly happen or be done 3. transitive and intransitive verb: make somebody expect something: to cause somebody to expect something noun 3. signal of something: an indication that something is likely to happen

So can we agree that they in fact promised something with the following?

"Entry level product ready for Customers Summer 2007"
"Power level product ready for Customers Winter 2007"

On a second thought, maybe it was only an illusory promise!?

Didn't want to start discussing semantics, but...

@fairlanefastback

quoting myself

Quote:

I am aware of all these things including much that has been said on IRC and gone unpublished. Amiga Inc thought they were going to have a walkover. Ack believed them. What has changed is that it's not a walkover whatever the outcome. Ack was told first to go ahead regardless, then he acknowledged there would be some slippage, then he apparently was told to taihoa - that's Maori for wait a bit, put things on hold.

The walkover bit was an impression of mine and of others including Ack when the first papers were lodged. By his own admission he believed Amiga Inc would win. That statement and those about slippage and putting the work on hold were all made on IRC. Sure there were no announcements. That term is reserved for good news isn't it?

Noel

@edponpon

Quote:

edponpon wrote: @fairlanefastback I can see why Samface has issues with you. My statement is plain and simple to read and understand. Let me try this again, for all; 1- Amiga Inc posted specs for new hardware for a thing called a computer .... As for me, I'm not demeaning anyone,

Hmm really? Dosen't sound like it.

Quote:

4- NO WHERE, does it say Amiga Inc or Adam PROMISES anything. Period. 5- If you feel you're being cheated, lied to, etc, fine, DON'T BUY ANYTHING from either of them. Period. Why is this so hard to get? Why do people continue to ramble on and on about the "promises" made by both parties? As for me, I'm not demeaning anyone, simple stating a FACT. I'm not crying about a promise made, nor am I owed a thing. Yes, I do agree with you and others, that if a company makes claims, they should, key word - SHOULD, back up those claims. But they're not obligated to do so, nor do they OWE us an explanation. So my stance on actions like that are, fine, you don't show me anything, or tell me anything, I won't buy anything. Plain and simple, yet again.

I believe hatschi covers the above pretty well. Regardless, putting aside you getting caught up between the meaning of a word vs. its direct usage or not in a press release this discussion is looking to achieve at this point, some type of tangible example of something to show that ACK deserves the time of day from us. Its called consumer activism. Its funny how you want a hands off approach to ACK from fellow consumers yet you don't have a hands off approach to our right to voice our concerns. You develop some "owe" vs. "should" arguement and what your answer is to not being shown anything. But not everyone will arrive at the same way to handle that. Handling it differently does not mean someone decided they were "owed" anything. To question ACK in a public forum may mean to that person that they feel ACK "should" answer the questions and concerns, especially given the history at this point. To question ACK does not mean the person is saying they are "owed" anything. Public pressure is often used by the public to influence companies to do what they "should".

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200