@Thread

This thread is so lame I cant begin to imagine it. All these replies of users talking to eachother is perfect nonsense. Its becoming apparent that these boards could very well be vapour, since if there was an actual product they would have showcased it by now to stop all the silly talk... sad.

@realize

Quote:

realize wrote: @Thread This thread is so lame I cant begin to imagine it. All these replies of users talking to eachother is perfect nonsense. Its becoming apparent that these boards could very well be vapour, since if there was an actual product they would have showcased it by now to stop all the silly talk... sad.

Maybe its not so lame, if it indeed illustrates as you say that "if there was an actual product they would have showcased it by now to stop all the silly talk". At the least I think this thread has given greater insight to ACK and its history than everyone may have been aware of previously. I certainly have found hatschi's posts/timelines/quotes informative as an example.

Nice Amiga Unisphere BTW. ;)

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Jun-2007 at 07:03 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Jun-2007 at 07:02 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

At the least I think this thread has given greater insight to ACK and its history than everyone may have been aware of previously.

Agreed. I think we have had a chance to rehash and share our information and thoughts on ACK and I believe those who have followed it closely may now have a bit more complete picture of what is known about ACK and what not.

Quote:

I certainly have found hatschi's posts/timelines/quotes informative as an example.

As another example I also thought NoelFuller's IRC quotes were insightful to demonstrate what ACK has said of their lack of progress. It is always good to have better understanding of all sides of an argument and I think that has happened in this thread remarkably well.

To anyone who thinks this is nonsense, I say this has been one of the better threads here. Very to the point and polite, good discussion all around. I think most arguments in favor and also in critique of ACK have been made, so it has been a very balanced discussion. We have better understanding of the plusses and minuses people see in the situation and perhaps some who have not followed ACK closely before now are up to date on where things stand there.

I hope NoelFuller has maybe tomorrow time to share what he thinks of our last comments, but other than that I guess the ball's in ACK's court. I hope he gets on track someday. Not only because I'd look like a fool if it turns out to be a hoax.

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-Jun-2007 at 07:43 PM.

@thread

Is there any recursion termination condition?
Stop waisting bytes....


There are others threads out there.
And summer is outside (at least in Northern hemisphere)


Jack

_________________

"the expression, 'atonal music,' is most unfortunate--it is on a par with calling flying 'the art of not falling,' or swimming 'the art of not drowning.'. A. Schoenberg

@jack

You are kidding right?
Admittedly, it is June when traditionally we have summer.
Not this year in Britain though, it's been cancelled.
All we have is rain and floods.
Very bad floods at that.
Three people have died and a lot of people have been evacuated.
Property and possesions for thousands are ruined.
Does show there are other things in life to be concerned about though I suppose.

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@TiredofLife

Quote:

TiredofLife wrote: @jack You are kidding right? Admittedly, it is June when traditionally we have summer. Not this year in Britain though, it's been cancelled. All we have is rain and floods. Very bad floods at that. Three people have died and a lot of people have been evacuated. Property and possesions for thousands are ruined. Does show there are other things in life to be concerned about though I suppose.

Thats a shame. :( Sorry to hear that. I was away from the forums for a few days for a long weekend myself. We are having good weather (thank goodness) in the Northeast US so far.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@TiredofLife, jack

Quote:

Does show there are other things in life to be concerned about though I suppose.

Like taking threads off-topic? (As for the UK news, very sorry to hear about that. Here in Finland we had the usual midsummer weekend result in several deaths as well, as every year. Maybe people should have stayed indoors and posted here instead.)

I think this thread and its participants have progressed. Rarely understanding comes from only a message or two, it needs more and I think the debate has been making progress step by step. Obviously it has reached a natural lull at the moment, so don't worry, the "recursion termination condition" will be reached at some point. Maybe even very soon if no new information / points of view becomes available.

If the topic is of no interest to you, why read it?

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-Jun-2007 at 08:39 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 26-Jun-2007 at 08:37 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 26-Jun-2007 at 08:36 PM.

@TiredofLife

Quote:

TiredofLife wrote: @jack You are kidding right? Admittedly, it is June when traditionally we have summer. Not this year in Britain though, it's been cancelled. All we have is rain and floods. Very bad floods at that. Three people have died and a lot of people have been evacuated. Property and possessions for thousands are ruined. Does show there are other things in life to be concerned about though I suppose.

No, no kidding. Sorry to read that. Here's it is 35+C here since Saturday. 28C at night. 80% humidity. Practically the opposite weather. Easier to cope though (cooling down and drinking water, sometimes beer).

Take care,
Jack

Last edited by jack on 26-Jun-2007 at 10:25 PM.

_________________

"the expression, 'atonal music,' is most unfortunate--it is on a par with calling flying 'the art of not falling,' or swimming 'the art of not drowning.'. A. Schoenberg

@jtsiren

Quote:

jtsiren wrote: @TiredofLife, jack If the topic is of no interest to you, why read it?

Actually it is of interest. It just gone to "circular". Ppl angry with ACK vs. ppl trying to calm emotions down and "wait and see". Somehow endless debates on semantics of words. Low information/post ratio. Very hard to track/filter atm. If any useful info manifests itself, it would be easily overlooked (I assume immediate injection of 30+posts). I'ld prefer something constructive (new hardware and resolution for ppl who wait for their equipment to be returned).

Jack

_________________

"the expression, 'atonal music,' is most unfortunate--it is on a par with calling flying 'the art of not falling,' or swimming 'the art of not drowning.'. A. Schoenberg

@jack

Well the timeline was pretty informative but I see your point to a degree.
If you just started reading now, there are a lot of posts to get through.
Not all of are purely informative.
This plenty of speculations and accusations to get through as well.
Although some people would find that interesting as well.
Me included.

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

@sundown

[quote]
But the EFICA doesn't run os4 & after reading bbrv's irc interview, its questionable if it will run MOS 2.0 when it comes out.
But then that's OT in this thread.
[/qoute]

A bit OT, but you brought this up and it is better to correct things b4 false conclusions are drawn:
MOS 2.0 will run on the Efika, it already does (shown publically & confirmed officially).
http://www.morphos-team.net/news.html the news from November the 23rd gives the official answer regarding MOS on the Efika.
The team has been even more precise on morphzone.org, where it was said that the *next* release of MOS will support the Efika.

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

As has been suggested, I think ACK needs to change his way of communicating with the Amiga public/community.

IRC has to be the *worst* way of doing it, because it is "behind closed doors" for those not present, and all we get are leaked snippets that can be taken out of context (for good or bad, but probably bad).

Posting on web forums has obviously not suited ACK either, since he seems unable to handle the wide range of opinions about him, nor the few harsh criticisms (even if these are moderated away within a few days/hours).

Using a Blog has to be the best idea so far, as ACK can keep us up-to-date, without having to endure direct feedback on what he says (unless he allows comments to be posted). Sure, people would comment about him else where (AmigaWorld for example), but that is going to happen whatever he does - or even if he is silent (as this thread demonstrates). The main point is that he should not feel a great pressure to response (at least not directly), since any criticisms would not appear in the same place as where he is typing.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@ChrisH

Quote:

As has been suggested, I think ACK needs to change his way of communicating with the Amiga public/community.

Ack has zero credibility; if he wants to communicate with the Amiga community the first thing he should do is post some kind of evidence that he is actually capable of doing some hardware related work. He can easily do this by putting up a web page with a few photos. The cost would be less than US$10. He could even put some pics on Flickr for $0. It's trivial.

Those photos could show any of: a PV board, a PPC board set up for testing, schematics, unpopulated motherboards, PA semi developers kit; that kind of thing. After all, these things are all sitting on Ack's testbench... right ?

@jack

Quote:

Actually it is of interest. It just gone to "circular".

Thoughts do that don't they, like birds circling to begin a migration? It indicates something more should be sought. Actually your comment put me in mind of a dance I used to love, The song won't get out of my head and my thoughts wander up and down, as I try to figure out how to respond to jtsiren's careful plot just like

The grand old Duke of York
He had ten thousand men
He marched them to the top of the hill
and marched them down again
and when they're up they're up
and when they're down they're down
and when they're only half way up
they're neither up nor down

@Ivan & sundown

I was curious, do either of you have any updates to share on the machines sent to ACK and supposedly not returned?

http://tinyurl.com/32e28d
http://tinyurl.com/29vc9b
http://tinyurl.com/28da8y

And is anyone else in the same boat?

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 27-Jun-2007 at 03:02 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 27-Jun-2007 at 02:56 AM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@jtsiren, Boot_WB, others I have not responded to, all

Quote:

I hope NoelFuller has maybe tomorrow time to share what he thinks of our last comments,

I've read them several times. Gradually some ideas have come together which I will keep as succinct as I can in this position summary.

Quote:

So we're left with two options that I can see (somewhat polarizing here): either we pursue criticism to provoke change (or at least provoke sharing of information and knowledge among the community) and hold ACK responsible, or we try another approach where we don't critique them but instead hope our subtlety (or intentional silence) will result in better circumstances than washing the laundry in the open. I seem to favor the former, you seem to favor the latter. You seem to believe another approach will yield better results - perhaps you can enlighten us as to what those results you think will be?

Whenever I see two sides to an issue about which controversy develops I look for a third. There is one.

What do we want overall?

We want OS4 development continued. We want hardware available to run it. We want to know that whatever the outcome of the litigation, this will really happen.

Amiga Inc. Hyperion, users, potential hardware suppliers and existing developers will all agree with that much. We may be suspicious of real intentions of Amiga Inc. for instance, but they have said so and the only way we have of testing such statements is to treat them as true and see what is then proven.*

As to arguments about Ack showing the potential user base proofs of his past claims, he knows them all, but it has not happened and is unlikely to as things presently stand. But I will say now that someone else has certainly noticed these doubts and concerns, or had their own, and negotiated an answer. More on this later.

Now about rights?

I will not try to force or manipulate anyone into doing what I think is good or support anyone else doing so. It is not my business how Ack Software Controls is conducted. I have neither purchased nor ordered with payment any product and have no rightful interest until that is so. At most I may clarify issues and go my way, heard or not.

What of Ack Software Controls' potential to produce hardware, finance it and bring it to market?

At present Ack Software Controls has no Amiga user base and with respect to Amiga hardware production, has just one client, Amiga Inc. One may presume contracts and the right of that client to keep an eye on progress and require demonstration.

Like me Adam enjoys creating things that work, software and hardware, solving problems. There is a photo on the net of Adam doing fixes at a Toronto show. My AmigaOne works reasonably well because he had the talent to devise solutions or workarounds for problems in the design. Hardware and software is what he is good at, but communication with the potential user base, marketing, raising finance - these are matters for which companies usually have dedicated employees or partners who are the managers, spokesmen and negotiators. There are three other persons with Ack but we see nothing of them with respect to Amiga hardware in the areas named. He cannot realise his larger goals in commerce on his own.

Assume Amiga Inc. means what it says in the hardware announcements and want OS4 development continued.

I have said that I think these announcements were a court case related snow job and other posters have similar suspicions, but perhaps there really is a contract and the intentions are otherwise good in terms of our primary hope for machines to run OS4 on. Anyway it is useful for us to credit this.

Amiga Inc. have looked at what Ack Software Controls can and can't do and resolved the outstanding issues by taking finance, marketing (with demonstration of course) in house. Does this make commercial sense? Then it is Amiga Inc. and only them that can post updates, arrange demonstrations, give the hoped-for user base assurances, respond to enquiries.

Whatever we may think of past situations only the current one applies. Any concern we may have with regard to the production of hardware lies with Amiga Inc. at present and who they contract with is not our business.

What about the litigation?

Big ifs hang over everything Amiga.

I doubt anyone is going to like too well the final judgement, it may well cripple the parties ability to move on. It may still remain for the parties to consider the future together without any hidden agendas, with goodwill, and come to new and better agreements. It's not about the past but about the future. We users are a factor but we won't have all that much say will we? Perhaps we also serve who only stand and wait (for you edponpon).

* Testing Claims

If one doubts a claim or suspects a lie it is wise to act as if it is true, devising an action, without accusation or rankour, that the claimant has to acknowledge. If false it is likely another story will be offered which can be tested in like manner. In my experience third time has brought the truth. I even got money out of our government when I read a UN report in which the government claimed as their program a project I had created and was running. I wrote a very nice letter (backed by 20 voluntary societies), quoting the relevant UN doc, asking for twice what we needed. They gave me half what I asked :)

About ACube

I'm full of admiration actually. They got round the one-man problems by combining three businesses. I want them to do well.

Noel

Last edited by NoelFuller on 27-Jun-2007 at 09:10 AM.
Last edited by NoelFuller on 27-Jun-2007 at 08:53 AM.
Last edited by NoelFuller on 27-Jun-2007 at 08:44 AM.

@jack

Quote:

Actually it is of interest. It just gone to "circular". Ppl angry with ACK vs. ppl trying to calm emotions down and "wait and see". Somehow endless debates on semantics of words. Low information/post ratio. Very hard to track/filter atm. If any useful info manifests itself, it would be easily overlooked (I assume immediate injection of 30+posts). I'ld prefer something constructive (new hardware and resolution for ppl who wait for their equipment to be returned).

Fair enough. But isn't that how understanding is created? It is very rare in written conversation for people to reach understanding in a reply or two. By understanding I don't necessarily mean agreement, but at least knowledge of where exactly the disagreement lies. That usually takes a few rounds which, I do get it, may seem especially long-winded for those not participating in that particular sub-thread, because some issues may need rehashing more than once before we kind of "get" what the other person is trying to convey. If neither party isn't trying to move goal-posts (we've seen certainly this too, but not so much in this thread), the loop will end eventually with everything said that needs to be said. I think we are close in this case of that.

Whether or not any of this is useful, because due to lack of information we are certainly more discussion social patterns than facts of ACKs products, that is certainly subject to one's opinion. I think it is useful, but that's just me.

Last edited by jtsiren on 27-Jun-2007 at 08:53 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 27-Jun-2007 at 08:51 AM.

@realize

If you don't like it then stop reading it.. its as simple as that

And talking is a good way to spend the waiting time.

RWO

_________________
Debugging is a state of mind

@NoelFuller



You better be careful . . positive thinking doesn't fly around here . . .

_________________
Avatar babe - Monica Bellucci.

@wolfe

Quote:

You better be careful . . positive thinking doesn't fly around here . .

LOL - its all that can fly

Noel