@NoelFuller

Thank you for taking the time to respond at length.

Quote:

About ACube... I'm full of admiration actually. They got round the one-man problems by combining three businesses. I want them to do well.

First things, first: 100%, absolutely, unequivocally agreed. ACube seems to have things together as far as a not-yet-released project possibly can. Quite the contrast to ACK, I would say.

Quote:

Amiga Inc. have looked at what Ack Software Controls can and can't do and resolved the outstanding issues by taking finance, marketing (with demonstration of course) in house. Does this make commercial sense? Then it is Amiga Inc. and only them that can post updates, arrange demonstrations, give the hoped-for user base assurances, respond to enquiries. ... Whatever we may think of past situations only the current one applies. Any concern we may have with regard to the production of hardware lies with Amiga Inc. at present and who they contract with is not our business.

This is where I think I base most of my issue with ACK at the present. Their past performance is significant IMHO, and on this we disagree I guess. You take it one step forward by saying that only Amiga Inc. is relevant as far as PR goes, so I have to add Amiga Inc.'s track record to the list of significant things. Now we have two very controversial companies, ACK and Amiga Inc.'s whose past performance is the only indication we have of their possible future success (due to lack of other public information, because they remain silent). And what a track record that is! A sane person would probably give up at this point and walk away.

As for track record, you adding the tidbit of ACK fixing AmigaOne's at a show is certainly a welcome addition to the puzzle we are trying to complete here. It tells a bit more about his background.

Quote:

If one doubts a claim or suspects a lie it is wise to act as if it is true, devising an action, without accusation or rankour, that the claimant has to acknowledge. If false it is likely another story will be offered which can be tested in like manner. In my experience third time has brought the truth.

But then haven't we been doing exactly this? Many people for a long time have given ACK the benefit of the doubt. They just ask for some specific action, say posting of photographs, to recude their doubts. What can we do if ACK time and time again fails or chooses not to perform such actions that are used to, as you put it, test them. Is there any point in your book where we should give up and assume the worst? Or perhaps a point where we should start public criticism in your opinion to inform others and maybe try again persuade this way ACK to comment?

What do you suggest we "devise" for ACK (or Amiga Inc.) to "acknowledge"? How long would you have waited before criticism is warranted?

Quote:

As to arguments about Ack showing the potential user base proofs of his past claims, he knows them all, but it has not happened and is unlikely to as things presently stand. But I will say now that someone else has certainly noticed these doubts and concerns, or had their own, and negotiated an answer. More on this later.

If someone else (with power to change things) has noticed these doubts and concerns, and possibly because of online feedback from the community (not necessarily this thread but others like it), then one of the goals that I stated for my personal approach on the matter has been reached. Making the concerns known allows for action to be taken. Again my view as I wrote it before:

jtsiren:
Quote:

So we're left with two options that I can see (somewhat polarizing here): either we pursue criticism to provoke change (or at least provoke sharing of information and knowledge among the community) and hold ACK responsible, or we try another approach where we don't critique them but instead hope our subtlety (or intentional silence) will result in better circumstances than washing the laundry in the open. I seem to favor the former, you seem to favor the latter.

This is a polarized view (maybe too much) and I do get it and go appreciate that you want to look for middle-ground, as in taking some action but not in the form of criticism (but disguised somehow) and that is fine - I just think we are probably past that point in this case.

Both ACK and Amiga Inc. have had far too much water run under their respective bridges for us to reasonably "act as if it is true" for everything they say. Even if it might be somewhat true at the time they post them, the track record is so assorted that it is usually best assumed that the announcement likely won't be followed through as announced. It is up to these parties to give us a bit more now IMHO if they want to continue to market to us (and want to avoid discussion like this one).

There is a reason the boy who cried wolf a few too many times eventually received no help - even if, ironically, the last time around he was finally being true about it.

Last edited by jtsiren on 27-Jun-2007 at 11:23 AM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

What do you suggest we "devise" for ACK (or Amiga Inc.) to "acknowledge"?

For a test to work it must be something for which a response has to be made.
Demanding photographs or demos are not such tests. I have nothing more to say with respect to Ack but as we want hardware we must address the responsible party, Amiga Inc.. Customers usually place orders or try to. But please not all at once. Too much demand might be interpreted as evidence toward irreparable damage! Bill McEwen usually responds quickly to serious enquiries. A determined customer can follow up with further enquiries as to the status of the order.

Noel

@NoelFuller

Thanks. First off, I acknowledge that the rest of the discussion between us has been pretty much exhausted. Just bear with me as I try to understand this last point of yours.

Quote:

For a test to work it must be something for which a response has to be made. Demanding photographs or demos are not such tests. I have nothing more to say with respect to Ack but as we want hardware we must address the responsible party, Amiga Inc.. Customers usually place orders or try to. But please not all at once. Too much demand might be interpreted as evidence toward irreparable damage! Bill McEwen usually responds quickly to serious enquiries. A determined customer can follow up with further enquiries as to the status of the order.

I probably do not understand what you mean by a test. You say a test to work it must be something for which a response has to be made - yet you say demanding photographs or demos are not such tests? Isn't a photograph the response? What exactly are such tests you talk about? If I (or someone else) tests ACK by asking for photographs, like they have and ACK chooses not to respond, how is this not a test?

Quote:

I have nothing more to say with respect to Ack but as we want hardware we must address the responsible party, Amiga Inc..

How come the assumption that Amiga Inc. is suddenly the responsible party? Do we have any evidence to point out that ACK wouldn't be similarily in a position (or even in a better position since they actually make the hardware) to be so tested, as you suggest? Just like Eyetech talked about AmigaOne without Amiga Inc. in the middle. I don't think ACK has said they can't talk about anything without Amiga Inc.'s approval. Even if they were prohibited from talking, ACK could be tested by asking (as has been done) information about their past products which Amiga Inc. was not involved with - these too would go ways to describe ACK's track record.

And in any case, ACK has IMHO already been tested many times in the past (before Amiga Inc. got involved) and they have failed those tests.

No need to go into too much length if you'd just rather leave all this behind, but I really would like to understand what this test of yours is - if e.g. asking for photographs is not a test.

@RWO

Quote:

If you don't like it then stop reading it.. its as simple as that

Happens every time. Just when I get tired of a thread and bypass it, some thing really important finally comes up and I miss it. So recently when threads get into the "circular" mode Jack mentions, I'm just scanning a few sentences looking for non-repetitive info and moving on.

Maybe I should start skipping this one too, then Amiga/Ack will announce some thing just because they know I'll miss it here.

Plaz

@NoelFuller

Quote:

NoelFuller wrote: @jtsiren, Boot_WB, others I have not responded to, all Assume Amiga Inc. means what it says in the hardware announcements and want OS4 development continued. ... Amiga Inc. have looked at what Ack Software Controls can and can't do and resolved the outstanding issues by taking finance, marketing (with demonstration of course) in house. Does this make commercial sense? Then it is Amiga Inc. and only them that can post updates, arrange demonstrations, give the hoped-for user base assurances, respond to enquiries. Whatever we may think of past situations only the current one applies. Any concern we may have with regard to the production of hardware lies with Amiga Inc. at present and who they contract with is not our business.

Bill McEwen very recently (post joint ACK announcements) said he is not in the hardware business:

Quote:

“I don’t want to be in hardware because you can’t make money that way,”

Reference for above: http://tinyurl.com/22pb9h

Very clearly the hardware offering is from ACK. They are joint annoucements because Amiga has licensed ACK. They only appear singular because ACK has no website to publish them, but their text clearly shows them as joint announcements. (An aside, if you told your non-Amiga buddies that a tech company has no website, what would be their reaction - Amigaland fog that we accept this as normal IMHO).


Quote:

Now about rights? I will not try to force or manipulate anyone into doing what I think is good or support anyone else doing so. It is not my business how Ack Software Controls is conducted. I have neither purchased nor ordered with payment any product and have no rightful interest until that is so. At most I may clarify issues and go my way, heard or not.

ACK approached us, a number of times. They are quite happy if we are talking up the specs full of joy at the new coming machines that supposedly will make Apple reconsider going back to PPC they will be so good (* this may have been said somewhat tongue-in-cheek by ACK for fairness sake). They produce price tags and timing for release of these machines. This affects people's spending habits. We have one member here who's signature talks about the new ACK machine he is going to be running as his next Amiga. We have open accusations that at least two of our brothers in the community have had ACK keep their hardware with no right to do so. Another brother in the community has connector part samples he claims as of yet un-returned. Where are we for them? I don't know that ACK is the guilty party in any of these cases but we should be fighting to have these issued resolved as a community.

It may not be our right to know how ACK Software Controls business is conducted. But it is our right to react to its approaching us and verbalizing to us through announcements and IRC and forum posts. Its its right not to respond. Its our right to keep the conversation going anyway until ACK does if we so choose.

We have the right of free speech and to say what will make each of us comfortable that ACK is legitimate and to share doubts we may have as well as confidence boosters. I liked hearing about this Toronto show repair session he did. If others have good stories to share on such repairs or otherwise I certainly would like to hear about them. I want this company to turn out to be legit and make product and to buy it. ACK's annoucements are an invitation for people to get money ready, well given his track record, here is me showing my money, now show me some proof I shouldn't spend it on a summer vacation instead.

If ACK is going to be so pig-headed that they can't show us something they have already claimed to achieve there is little we can do to help them. PowerVixxen running Linux, its there, it exists, it works, right?

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 27-Jun-2007 at 04:26 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

(An aside, if you told your non-Amiga buddies that a tech company has no website, what would be their reaction - Amigaland fog that we accept this as normal IMHO).

Actually there have been many comments about ACK's lack of a website. People stopped bothering to comment about that a year or so ago because it doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon. To be honest, if ACK did have a website, people would probably be complaining about lack of content or distaste for the design, or something like that.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: (An aside, if you told your non-Amiga buddies that a tech company has no website, what would be their reaction - Amigaland fog that we accept this as normal IMHO). Actually there have been many comments about ACK's lack of a website. People stopped bothering to comment about that a year or so ago because it doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon. To be honest, if ACK did have a website, people would probably be complaining about lack of content or distaste for the design, or something like that. Hans

Since he has new announcements as of April its worthy of note that this still has not motivated the company to bother to have a website made. And on its face a tech company having no website is ridiculous IMHO.

People's sense of aesthetics has nothing to do with whether a technology company should have a website if it wants to be taken seriously.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@Hans

Possibly because most Amiga companies seem to have a complete inability to create professional-looking websites and fill them with content about their products. Of course, that implies having products. Some people keep giving excuses such as "it has to work on Amiga browsers" as an answer to why their sites look crap. That's irrelevant. Amiga.com uses CSS and looks horrendous. AW.net works on all Amiga browsers and looks gorgeous, as does Amiga.org.

I generally find this quite funny, over the past few years, many people dropped the carrot in front of our faces, creating extremely funny/unrealistic press releases, crap-looking websites devoid of any information, et cetera, yet there is that insistence that it's always the critics' fault, never the ones leaving themselves wide-open to criticism by making sub-par efforts...

And no, I do not consider myself to be better than those people, my difference with them is that I do not make announcements and promises I do not intend to keep to a starved community, essentially teasing them.

Last edited by AMiGR on 27-Jun-2007 at 05:29 PM.

_________________

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @Hans ... Since he has new announcements as of April its worthy of note that this still has not motivated the company to bother to have a website made. And on its face a tech company having no website is ridiculous IMHO. People's sense of aesthetics has nothing to do with whether a technology company should have a website if it wants to be taken seriously.

I agree. But I can't be bothered commenting on his lack of a website as we had that discussion years ago. Just because I don't say anything doesn't mean that I think that this is normal.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 27-Jun-2007 at 06:34 PM.

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@koan
I agree, ACK really should post some photographic evidence. But if he won't, then he won't, so I don't really see the point in continuing to harass him for it. The only way I can see to move forward is to try to be constructive, and offer other alternatives (even if not as good). If he ignores all of these good ideas, then it just adds to the circumstantial evidence that he's not on the level with us (although a hoax is not the only possibility - he could simply be incompetent, or incredibly naive, or more likely a mixture of all three).

_________________
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@NoelFuller who said Quote:

Amiga Inc. have looked at what Ack Software Controls can and can't do and resolved the outstanding issues by taking finance, marketing (with demonstration of course) in house. Does this make commercial sense? Then it is Amiga Inc. and only them that can post updates, arrange demonstrations, give the hoped-for user base assurances, respond to enquiries.

If that were true, then why hasn't ACK simply told us that? Rather than letting us keep banging on his door? To me the simple answer is that Amiga Inc has not (officially) taken those responsibilities, although they might decide to do so later.

I'm not even sure if there is a written contract between ACK & Amiga Inc, given ACK's past indifference to actually obtaining a license. (But I would not be surprised if such a contract is promised "any day now" by Bill, and had been for the past month or so!)

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@jtsiren who said Quote:

As for track record, you adding the tidbit of ACK fixing AmigaOne's at a show is certainly a welcome addition to the puzzle we are trying to complete here. It tells a bit more about his background.

Something that ACK may not appreciate is that most of us have NOT been following his every IRC chat, every post he makes, every Amiga event he has ever been to. So when-ever someone posts some IRC snippets of what he said, he shouldn't be too surprised that it get's picked apart (and sometimes mis-interpreted, due to lack of context). The way to solve this problem is for ACK to provide MORE information, not less!

For me personally, when I still considered Troika to be a good bet, ACK was not even on my radar (because he was promising some kind of A1200 add-on, and that did not interest me.)

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@fairlanefastback who said Quote:

Bill McEwen very recently (post joint ACK announcements) said he is not in the hardware business:

You are cruel, holding Bill to something he said! Next you'll be saying Amiga Inc really was insolvent, when he said it was in the Thendic case

_________________
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@NoelFuller

Has anyone been in contact with Bill or anyone @ Amiga Inc recently? They seem rather hard to get in touch with, whether is on the phone or by mail? Just curious!

Accidentally posted incomplete so deleted
Noel

Last edited by NoelFuller on 27-Jun-2007 at 10:54 PM.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Bill McEwen very recently (post joint ACK announcements) said he is not in the hardware business: Quote: "I don't want to be in hardware because you can't make money that way,"

When I saw the hardware announcements I still thought as you do but See the accidentally published confidential Amiga Inc letter to dealers.

Quote:

Hello Amiga Dealers: As mentioned in the press release we are in the final stages with the design of new hardware and getting them into production. Something that will be different than what happened with the AmigaOne is that we will be purchasing these new machines in the more than 1,000 units per order. This will allow us to get better pricing and quality for all of you. The specs for the sub 500.00 machines will be out on Monday and the more expensive machine the following week. Production will begin soon and they will be ready this summer. More details and final specs and timing will follow.

That surprised me too. It changes the picture completely. My immediate thought was that there is no longer a level playing field among hardware suppliers. The next was that this removes the issues of marketing and responsibility to consumers from Ack to Amiga Inc. They made this bed anyway

When I bought my AmigaOne I did not order it from the designer, nor the manufacturer but from Eyetech via an Australian dealer.

I really think it is time to get the knife out of Ack. no good is being done but perhaps I should let you see the following:

Ssolie's Prayer
ssolie to hatty
Quotes: "well, Bill seems to have taken all you naive souls closer
to the edge of fruitless anticipation than ever before with this
release.

"...prepared to be brought back down to Earth with a MASSIVE bump.
You will never see any hardware for AOS4."

If only there were someone with the knowledge and power great enough
to guide is into the light and save us from ourselves. Oh how I pray
for someone to save our naive souls from these hideous monsters
trying to ship a simple computer system for us to purchase.

ackcontrls hears Ssolie's Prayer

I just want to get some new hardware out there to the people.
Hardware for OS4 to run OS4. It's really no simpler than that. No
hidden agenda, just something people can buy from the ever shrinking
list of Amiga retailers that's officially supported by Amiga Inc.
Period.

ACK

Quote: "With this track-record you can't be surprised that people are
very critical and sceptic towards everything you do."

I'm not concerned about the critical nature of people nor the
scepticism at all. Frankly, the way I see the situation is that the
released hardware will speak for itself. I don't have to explain, nor
the time to explain, in any level of detail of how or why it will
happen. It just will. Period.

Adam

@ChrisH

Quote:

@NoelFuller who said: Amiga Inc. have looked at what Ack Software Controls can and can't do and resolved the outstanding issues by taking finance, marketing (with demonstration of course) in house. Does this make commercial sense? Then it is Amiga Inc. and only them that can post updates, arrange demonstrations, give the hoped-for user base assurances, respond to enquiries. If that were true, then why hasn't ACK simply told us that? Rather than letting us keep banging on his door? To me the simple answer is that Amiga Inc has not (officially) taken those responsibilities, although they might decide to do so later. I'm not even sure if there is a written contract between ACK & Amiga Inc, given ACK's past indifference to actually obtaining a license. (But I would not be surprised if such a contract is promised "any day now" by Bill, and had been for the past month or so!)

Ack has probably been muzzled with respect to public announcements, but may not have realised yet that he should refer all enquirers to Amiga Inc as Hyperion have done re hardware.

We must take the Hardware announcements at their word, but in the light of the letter to dealers, whatever our scepticism, and see what transpires.

Noel

@NoelFuller

ack:
Quote:

I don't have to explain, nor the time to explain, in any level of detail of how or why it will happen. It just will. Period.

That is certainly one bold statement. I remember seeing it somewhere before. While I don't agree (and don't intend to have that discussion again) that ACK is right in just ignoring our requests for explanation... and he is very quick to blame critics for his criticism instead of his own actions in that text, which I didn't like at all...

Gotta say the guy's got guts to use such strong words with his track-record.

It will certainly be interesting to see if what he says happens. Summer 2007 then, OK, I'll wait.

@jtsiren

I'll actually up it one notch. I promise you guys - not announce, I really promise - if ACK/Amiga delivers the hardware, available and shipping by end of Summer 2007, say by September 15th, I will buy one of the $489 units just to acknowledge they made it this time. I think this is only fair given all the discussion here.

The price doesn't have to be exactly that, just in the ball park. Specs can also change a little. It doesn't even have to have OS4 on it, I will gladly accept if it only runs Linux, but it has to be, overall, the ACK "Entry Level Design Details" machine and be openly available for general consumers to buy. This will be my small carrot.

Deliver on time this time and I'll walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

Maybe others will join me? Would this constitute a test Noel?

@jtsiren

Quote:

Good. I am now awaiting for you to comment ACK's bad manners in not communicating to us well.

No comment as I feel the endless beatings have given him the right to ignore us. The beatings started exactly 1 yr ago in another thread similar to this one.

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