@NoelFuller
Individually, each of your explanations for ACK's behaviour is quite reasonable, even believable. But when you take *all* of them together then IMHO our credulity is stretched very thin. Exactly how much bad luck & bad judgement are we to believe of ACK? Do you have any upper limit?!?

Anyway, regarding Ivan's missing A1 board, if ACK truly does not have the time to fix it, then he could simply return his board AND his money, and admit as much. Holding it hostage IN SILENCE for 6-12 months is simply criminal.

edit: As I said before, the longer ACK fails to explain himself, the more problems pile-up, and the worse he looks. Children ignore problems, hoping they will go away, but adults are not supposed to do that.

Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Jul-2007 at 11:24 PM.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@Ivan

Quote:

I pm him every couple weeks up til middle of october and he replys with alot of excuses. 'my father died'

Good g*d man, have you listened to yourself? that is the coldest thing I've ever heard anyone say (and I've sat in on shareholder meetings of some pretty amoral companies)

@NoelFuller


Quote:

I doubt they are alive now.

Blimey, no one messes with you!

@CodeSmith
Try to take it IN CONTEXT. I'm sure at the time he fully believed it, but after being fed silence/bull-sh*t for the next 8 months, can you blame him for not putting full weight to ACK's excuses anymore?

edit: There may well be a valid excuse(s) for Ivan's board, but really I honestly cannot think of one at this point, especially when others have apparently had a similar story. If my life fell apart (say due to loosing a close family member), the first thing I'd do (once I was over the initial shock) would be get rid of any commitments that I could not keep.

Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Jul-2007 at 11:32 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 01-Jul-2007 at 11:32 PM.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@ChrisH

Quote:

I long ago adopted a policy of seeking to identify the best in a person rather than sit in judgement and seeking self-justification by assuming the worst. Believe it or not, I subscribe to a similar philosophy: If there there are alternative explanations, then I choose bad luck over incompetence, and incompetence over malice. (I have stated this before in other threads, such as when analysing Amiga Inc's motives)

Well put. I suspect some other adjectives could be employed too.

The usual as you know is: Once is an accident, twice may be a system failure, three is enemy action. In this situation the third item may be getting caught up in a war, shells passing overhead but not all. In this instance too, systems failure may not relate to electronic expertise but to business management, but we'll get to know eventually.

Noel

@ChrisH

I do agree that Adam's dug himself into a hole, and if I were in his shoes I'd probably also just shut up until I had something ready to demo. Still, Ivan's post doesn't exactly make Ivan sound like something with a soul.

[edit]
Quote:

If my life fell apart (say due to loosing a close family member), the first thing I'd do (once I was over the initial shock) would be get rid of any commitments that I could not keep.

I've been there (a close friend of mine died), and trust me, business commitments are the last thing on your mind. Your world caves in on itself, and all that matters for a while is your immediate family and closest friends. The amount of time "a while" lasts for depends on the person - it could be a few days, or many months. Some people change completely when this happens to them.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 01-Jul-2007 at 11:40 PM.

@Drathro

Quote:

I doubt they are alive now. Blimey, no one messes with you!

Doh! Geez!

Noel

@CodeSmith

Quote:

I've been there (a close friend of mine died), and trust me, business commitments are the last thing on your mind. Your world caves in on itself, and all that matters for a while is your immediate family and closest friends. The amount of time "a while" lasts for depends on the person - it could be a few days, or many months.

But then that didn't happen here (complete shutdown) - Adam has been making business announcements (apparently creating whole new products) since as well as apparently making Ivan several promises the board is done and getting shipped to him, if Ivan is to be believed.

Putting into context Adam's previous failures to deliver (before this family emergency), other similar statements that have amounted to nothing (like "PowerVixxen in production") - you got to admit, it sounds less and less plausible that a death in the family explains it all, nor even a significant amount of the problems with ACK.

I personally think we should drop the family issue angle, I am beginning to believe it can not possibly be the root cause and not even a significant source of explanation or resolution for the problematic nature of dealing with ACK.

I do not wish to belittle anything Adam has gone through family-wise, but trying to objectively observe this I do think the real reasons for ACK's (the company) lack of delivery - looking at the whole history - are elsewhere.

IMHO.

Last edited by jtsiren on 02-Jul-2007 at 12:07 AM.

@NoelFuller

Quote:

Its a different matter and should not happen but does. As a test it demonstrates that good business management is at the mercy of changing personal priorities. Not good - see below.

Sure it happens, and sure it shouldn't happen, but for me such events tell a lot about ACK.

Some made a strong case back there how we weren't customers and thus we had no right to expect anything of ACK. Well, that debate went and we got no real conclusion, but we agreed to disagree I guess and that was that. Well, this is new: here is a guy who says he paid, is a customer and hasn't seen is hardware soon in a year and all he is getting are promises that the machine is in the mail any day now... And we hear there are more people like him? Or do you assume Ivan is not telling the truth - that is certainly possible?

I guess I'm with ChrisH - who BTW put very eloquently the same policy I use when assessing what people are doing behind their words - asking you: Where do you draw the line? Even if one is to assume Adam means no malice, isn't there some line you draw where you say incompetence/inability has gone far enough, now is the time for some accountability?

@jtsiren

Quote:

I do not wish to belittle anything Adam has gone through family-wise, but trying to objectively observe this I do think the real reasons for ACK's (the company) lack of delivery - looking at the whole history - are elsewhere.

Agreed. As I said before, Adam's dug himself into a hole, although after having worked in a couple of startups, I think the only crime he's guilty of is counting his chickens before they hatch - remember he hasn't actually asked anyone for money.

Quote:

Even if one is to assume Adam means no malice, isn't there some line you draw where you say incompetence/inability has gone far enough, now is the time for some accountability?

If you mean retuning the boards he's holding for repairs, I fully agree with you - either fix them or (especially if the customer asks for it) return them. Otherwise, what do you want him to do? We all know he's not exactly a great businessman, so when he blows up in the forums and behaves in an unbusinesslike manner it's not exactly unexpected. In my experience from startups in the 90s, technical ability and business savvy tend to be mutually exclusive - most of the tiny companies that I knew about that lived past one year had a "tech guy" and a "money guy". The tech guy did his thing while the money guy talked to customers and managed the books (famous example - obviously not my personal experience: Woz and Jobs). All of the companies that I saw fail had one guy who tried to do both but always one suffered. I've seen Adam's story play 3 times with people I knew personally, and heard about 10 or so more.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 02-Jul-2007 at 01:12 AM.
Last edited by CodeSmith on 02-Jul-2007 at 01:00 AM.
Last edited by CodeSmith on 02-Jul-2007 at 12:49 AM.

@CodeSmith

Quote:

Agreed. As I said before, Adam's dug himself into a hole, although after having worked in a couple of startups, I think the only crime he's guilty of is counting his chickens before they hatch - remember he hasn't actually asked anyone for money.

Except Ivan, apparently.

Quote:

If you mean retuning the boards he's holding for repairs, I fully agree with you - either fix them or (especially if the customer asks for it) return them. Otherwise, what do you want him to do?

Mate, he's taken the guy's computer and the guy's money! You make it sound like he's asking too much!

This is like the classic builder who does half the job on your bathroom then doesn't come back for 6 months. If you do manage to get in touch, it's always excuses and empty promises. Eventually you'll be shouting down the phone about getting solicitors involved. And then he's there at 8am on Monday morning. It begs the question, would you pay the same builder to do your kitchen?

Chris

@clebin

I thought the current discussion was Adam's inability to deliver OS4 hardware? Besides, I already said that I agree that he should return people's hardware if the customer asks for it. If the hardware is not repaired, also the money (duh).

@jtsiren

I see no reason to disbelieve Ivan, or Ack for that matter. These same scenes are happening all the time. It seems more and more clear that the dysfunction lies in management and I have begun to compare the various players in the amiga scene.

Management is a profession and a talent in its own right. Self discipline is management too (self determination, self control - whatever brings into line all those conflicting desires, interests, emotions, worries and relations), probably the major field of battle in anyone's life. I know that there are many husband-wife businesses where one is the income earning talent and the other the business manager. This works while the relationship lasts and in a few cases the business partnership continues regardless.

Hyperion is management only - all actual work is outsourced. Hyperion's weakness has been an inability to handle customer relations from the office directly (registration for example).Their deal with ACube essentially passed to ACube those customer service and marketing matters Hyperion could not handle. Setting aside the tiff with Amiga Inc I thought it a necessary move.

ACube have management, talent, marketing and office functions in house, but I expect they have outsourced work to those suitably capable or would do so as required.

Amiga Inc has been mostly management with outsourcing but what they are really up to seems rather fuzzy to me. They seem to want to handle marketing and customer services.

So I will leave it there.

Where do I draw the line? - usually at the bottom of my brief bank statement. My A1 is stable now and may never need another CPU. I would love the 1.7 GHz card but have no cause to get one unless the current card fails. That leaves me free to consider the PASemi if it ever arrives but I do not know. Our needs are much fewer than our wants.

--------

My own A1 has a dire history. Originally with a G4 CPU, the mobo failed within a month of receipt. CPU OK. I sent it back to Anything Amiga in Oz which, though couriered, took three weeks to arrive. After several more weeks the board was described with some apt expletives and replaced. The replacement was vanished and was eventually discovered in Melbourne where it rested up after being immersed in some undisclosed liquid. CPU card and mobo destroyed. I refused replacement with a G3, hanging out for the G4. Eventually Doug put the question to me again as an unused G3 developer board remained available. I saw the wisdom of accepting - 15 months all told. During all this two other A1 boards I know of, dispatched to NZ, vanished on the way. This sort of thing plus absence of new hardware put Doug well down the drain and effectively out of business.

Noel

Last edited by NoelFuller on 02-Jul-2007 at 03:24 AM.

@CodeSmith

Quote:

I thought the current discussion was Adam's inability to deliver OS4 hardware? Besides, I already said that I agree that he should return people's hardware if the customer asks for it. If the hardware is not repaired, also the money (duh).

It was a direct reply to what you wrote. If you say "Otherwise, what do you want him to do? We all know he's not exactly a great businessman..." how am I supposed to know you've changed topic to OS 4 hardware half way through?

Chris

@NoelFuller

Quote:

I see no reason to disbelieve Ivan, or Ack for that matter. These same scenes are happening all the time. It seems more and more clear that the dysfunction lies in management and I have begun to compare the various players in the amiga scene.

OK.

Personally I think there is plenty of reason to disbelieve things ACK has said if the reported events are true. Like, if ACK keeps saying he will mail the board to Ivan and then does not, that is a reason to start disbelieving what he is saying - likewise for announcements or statements like "PowerVixxen is in production". If you see no reason to disbelieve ACK than I must wonder who would you disbelieve ever, maybe nobody.

Now, of course, that does not necessarily mean there is malice intended which is the only thing stopping me from thinking of this as a hoax.

relax!

We have hardware, we have software, and apart from a legal issue we have nothing to worry about. Not even ACK SC.

Wait for the court battle to blow over instead of the ACK hardware.

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote: @Ivan Quote: I pm him every couple weeks up til middle of october and he replys with alot of excuses. 'my father died' Good g*d man, have you listened to yourself? that is the coldest thing I've ever heard anyone say (and I've sat in on shareholder meetings of some pretty amoral companies)

And now its July of the next near. Ivan is writing from a perspective of still not having his property (and money) after all this time. We all have responsibilities in life and we all need time to grieve when losing a loved one. But the world must go on at some point. Especially in light of Adam announcing in April that ACK would have machines selling to the public by no later than the end of Summer his company is obviously in sufficiently running business mode. His company's work for Ivan is a prior commitment, as well as for the other user waiting on his machine back, and to Jens. His company should not be able to continue to have it both ways from the community IMHO.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Jul-2007 at 05:04 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Jul-2007 at 02:46 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote: @ChrisH I do agree that Adam's dug himself into a hole, and if I were in his shoes I'd probably also just shut up until I had something ready to demo. Still, Ivan's post doesn't exactly make Ivan sound like something with a soul.

Ivan is a person, not a "something". And you take quite the small sliver of insight into his life to make, what seems to me to be quite a bold statement, given such little insight to say he seems souless. And being that you are someone who writes God with an asterik (g*d) should you not perhaps leave the judging to Him as to what the quality of Ivan's soul is?

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Jul-2007 at 02:55 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Jul-2007 at 02:54 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Jul-2007 at 02:33 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

we are near the release now.... we are into the second month now..

Last edited by d0c on 05-Jul-2007 at 07:02 PM.

_________________
I was a ZX Spectrum owner....

@Ivan

Quote:

Well, i don't like sending out hardware for repairs and never getting it back.

Hello Ivan,

Perhaps this is worth giving a chance at using?

https://www.recol.ca/intro.aspx?lang=en

Quote:

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police is in the process of developing a central web-based crime reporting center entitled RECOL ('Reporting Economic Crime On-Line'). The objective is to offer citizens a single point of entry, via the phone, fax or Internet, to lodge a complaint concerning any frauds, traditional or Internet based, and have it directed quickly and efficiently to the respective law enforcement or investigative agency for action. Contact Person: Inspector John Sliter Royal Canadian Mounted Police Economic Crime Branch (613)998-6054 email: john.sliter@rcmp-grc.gc.ca

At least maybe they can point you in the right direction on who may be able to help you agency-wise if you are getting no relief otherwise from ACK Software Controls itself.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 05-Jul-2007 at 10:20 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200