Food for thougt,

In reply of Epic's hyped wild claims, Heavenly Sword dev: "I wonder what's so impressive in GOW that RSX could not do." and "once devs will start to use SPUs to speed up RSX things will start to be even more interesting"

Mark Rein (2007)=> PS3 UT3 Graphics Better Than Gears Of War and UT3 runs better on PS3 than Gears on 360

Although cross platform games will never push the PS3 as much as the exclusively developed titles, they are improving!

Just wanting to say Ratchet & Clank: TOD is absolutely awesome, the best smooth graphics I have seen to date! The game really shows off well that the PS3 is really *much* more powerful than the XBox 360. Forget the caged linear Gears, the non-bosses in R&C are way more impressive than the end game boss in Gears on the 360! IMO if you like the gerne it's a must buy and will make you absolutely understand the PS3's power (just fly around levels to look at the dinosaurs down below and in the distance, things will get very hectic later on seemingly without ever dropping a frame!). I thought the cutscenes were pre-renderred, but I shot a nano-swarm just while walking into a cutscene and there it was, so it much be all realtime!

And this is only the beginning:

"The amount of action we're able to put on the screen at 60 frames per second really dwarfs what we were able to do a year ago at 30 frames per second," said Hastings. "What's most exciting is the way things are headed right now I think we'll see just as big a leap from our second generation engine to our third as we did from the first to second."

Looking ahead, he was equally as optimistic: "We're already seeing a big leap in what people are able to do with the PS3 now compared to a year ago, and we're going to see just as big a leap between now and the end of 2008," said the Insomniac Games Chief Creative Officer. "I think we're going to continue seeing major leaps each year in what people are able to do with the machine for at least three or four more years."

And how are future games going to look better? It seems it's all down to the use of the much talked about PlayStation 3 SPUs, which until now haven't been fully used by developers.

"The tech and gameplay teams have moved tons of things over to the SPUs that used to run on the PPU," said Hastings on the improvements made to Insomniac's game engine. "Collision and physics are entirely running on SPUs now, which allows us to put much more on the screen at once than we were able to with Resistance. Moving more and more code to the SPUs is an ongoing process and I think we'll continue to see major benefits from this for several more years."

http://www.virginmedia.com/games/gamingnews/news-story.php?storyid=16411891

@Tomas

Quote:

I think the ps3 price is still to high for the average person... 497euros/$778 for 40gig is just to high even with the salaries we have here in Norway...

About 450¤/$660 (including 25% VAT) here in Sweden.

Yes I agree it's a bit too high for the general public. 300-350¤ would be a better price range.
About 2800-3250SEK. This about the price range 360 HDMI sells for.

3-4 really high volume exclusive titles and a 30% cut at the same time would probably rocket
the sales of the PS3. But at what cost for Sony?

Last edited by Samwel on 17-Nov-2007 at 04:32 AM.

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@BrianK

Quote:

Good point but it seems to me Sony's approach is different then Microsoft's.

Yes, their approach is indeed different. Sony tried to put in all and every feature possible
from get go. This proved to be too expensive in the end. Not expensive as is but rather
compared as a console and towards its competitors. They removed some not so needed
features, cut the price by about 20%. Good move IMO.
A further 20% cut for next christmas (maybe with RSX 65nm) would put it in the same price
as 360 and lower than Elite. This of course assuming MicroSoft doesn't change its price.
The 360 Elite actually cost just about the same as PS3 40GB in Sweden now.

MicroSoft's approach is different but not bad in any way. Other than only having a DVD player.
IMO of course.

Quote:

When did either reduce pricing/features in Sweden?

360:
We have not had a reduced price on a specific date I think. But the price went down about
15-20% slowly between 01-2006 to 06-2006. The price has stayed about the same since.
Reduced features isn't anything I'm aware of. The 360 has had 3-4 updated features.
Fixed ring of death hardware, HDMI edition and the Elite. The two latter with a higher
price.

PS3:
It has not had any price cuts in Sweden that I'm aware of. Other than dealers competing
with lower price. The difference being 2-5%. Noting to talk about really. The 60GB has had
slight price drop (about 10%) lately to sell out the last ones in stock.
The 40GB did of course get about 20% price cut compared to the 60GB model.

The slightly falling prices over time is not due to either MicroSoft or Sony lower its prices
towards dealers IMO. Its due to bigger orders and higher sales. Other than the 40GB
PS3 cut and the first half of 2006 cut for the 360 no price cuts has been made that I can
find.

Quote:

PS3 hardware is losing money for Sony. The Wii is making money for Nintendo. Yes the price cut can't be as large with a low price. But, the ability to cut price and keep features is in Nintendo's favor. Whereas if Sony kept the same hardware, features, and cut the price it would have lost further cash for Sony. I believe the main reason there hasn't been a Wii price cut is that it's the #1 seller. If you're leading the market you hold your price as long as possible. There is competition to the Wii the 360 Arcade version is comparably priced and lower then the Wii in some countries. In another view MikeB would argue that the PS2 is the Wii competition, I disagree.

Yes, if I have haven't misunderstood what I have read, they will loose money atleast during
2008, probably 2009 aswell. It's planned, no?

Wii has been promoted really good. It's a console that doesn't use the absolute high end
hardware but instead sells because it's games and that people finds it cool.
This is actually really important, how people precieves a console. Nintendo has done
a great job with promoting it IMO. But I'm not interested in it. I would rather buy a 360 than
a Wii. I can't understand the hype really. Maybe it's just me?

The 360 arcade is priced just about the same as Wii in Sweden. Only less than 20$ more
expensive.

I can understand MikeB's point. There can't be much more Wii can do that can't be done
technically on the PS2 aswell? Just because it's new doesn't mean it's this gen
featurewise. But I can see your point aswell. It's taking customers from PS3 and 360
(competing on the same market) and must thus be compared to these.

It's like they (Nintendo) took current hardware and made a console. 360 and PS3 took
future hardware and made theirs. Which is way less expensive is of course obvious. But
will it hold over time? Life time expectancy? 2 years? 3 years? Where as 360 and PS3
probably will be on the market for atleast 5 years. The PS3 probably even longer..

Quote:

Glad to disagree and you're free to hold your view.

Thanks! I'm glad you're not angry with me.

Quote:

But, here's how I see it. The first group that buys technology is 2 groups, the technophiles and the Sonyphiles. These 2 are going to buy the console period, to them backwards compatibility is less expensive as they're focused on the console for other reasons. After the inital surge the average market takes up the techonlogy. They buy on what this tech does for them. The more full featured a tech is the more likely the consumer is going to find enough compelling reasons for them to buy it. Before the PS3 was launched Kutagari stated how important backwards compatibility is, how it would maintain older sony software forever, and push the superiority of the PS3 over the 360. So either Sony didn't think they'd be dropping it or he was lying.

Yes, I see your point. But as almost everyone already owns a PS2, what is stopping them
from keeping it while buying a 360 or PS3? Running on true hardware is always the best.
But yes of course any extra feature is a plus for the PS3 and emulation of older platforms
is a major feature. But really unnecessary in the long run.

Also as I stated before, how many does play PS2 games on the PS3 after they initially
tested the feature? I think those are quite few.
The removal of two USB ports and the flash memory card reader aren't that bad. IMO
those where nice extras but unneeded.

I think Sony may already be working on full software emulation. Is it really that hard for
them to do? The CPU and PS2 system is already emulated, only the graphics engine is
left to emulate.

I don't know if he's lying or what. But I can understand him. You promote a product the
best you can. Views on different matter change over time. Before PS3 was released
and it had no games it was REALLY important with the PS2 emulator.

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@Samwel
Quote:

But how many revisions have we seen of the 360? 5? 7?

Good point but it seems to me Sony's approach is different then Microsoft's. With Microsoft users got an Elite that was more expensive and added HDMI along with a larger drive. Microsoft has since rolled the updated hardware, newer chipsets, HDMI, to all their consoles. Then they reduced the price. More features for lower price. This is unlike Sony who has reduced the features. Europe was the first to receive a lower level of backwards compatibility and now none. There was a console w/o memory card readers and now there's less USB ports. So, less features for a lower price. Definitely different approaches. I'd argue that Sony's approach is an attempt to rightsize their product for the market.

Quote:

In anyway Sweden 360 has NOT maintain its price. It has gone down about 25-30% since launched

Interesting. In the USA the 360's first price cut was Aug 07, about 3 months shy of 2 years. The PS3 hasn't made 1 year out and we've seen 2 price decreases along with feature decreases. When did either reduce pricing/features in Sweden?

Quote:

It's harder to do price cuts when your price is already so low IMO. And no reason to do so when you have no competition on your price level.

PS3 hardware is losing money for Sony. The Wii is making money for Nintendo. Yes the price cut can't be as large with a low price. But, the ability to cut price and keep features is in Nintendo's favor. Whereas if Sony kept the same hardware, features, and cut the price it would have lost further cash for Sony. I believe the main reason there hasn't been a Wii price cut is that it's the #1 seller. If you're leading the market you hold your price as long as possible. There is competition to the Wii the 360 Arcade version is comparably priced and lower then the Wii in some countries. In another view MikeB would argue that the PS2 is the Wii competition, I disagree.

Quote:

This sounds to me as quite good expectations?!?

Sales is but one of the expectations. There are others such as features. Kutaragi extolled the virtues of the backwards emulation. They changed their expectation of feature and switched it out for a lower price both in hope that they can meet their sales goal.

Quote:

I disagree. PS2 compatibility was good in the beginning but useless now.

Glad to disagree and you're free to hold your view.

But, here's how I see it. The first group that buys technology is 2 groups, the technophiles and the Sonyphiles. These 2 are going to buy the console period, to them backwards compatibility is less expensive as they're focused on the console for other reasons. After the inital surge the average market takes up the techonlogy. They buy on what this tech does for them. The more full featured a tech is the more likely the consumer is going to find enough compelling reasons for them to buy it.

Quote:

I think it was planned to drop the PS2 compatibility eventually.

Before the PS3 was launched Kutagari stated how important backwards compatibility is, how it would maintain older sony software forever, and push the superiority of the PS3 over the 360. So either Sony didn't think they'd be dropping it or he was lying.

Oct #s.

360 software revenue ($162 million) that beat the Wii and PS3 combined ($90 million for Wii, $48 million for PS3)

Xbox 360 version of Guitar Hero III proved the most popular, with 383,000 units in sales.

EA titles on Xbox 360 outperformed those same titles on PlayStation 3, PlayStation 2, PSP, Wii and DS combined.

Last edited by BrianK on 16-Nov-2007 at 08:45 PM.

I think the ps3 price is still to high for the average person.. If they somehow managed to cut the price so it was priced similarly to the xbox, then i am sure the sales would have really sky rocketed. There are alot of people out there who wants the ps3, but are sitting on the fence due to the price tag. 497euros/$778 for 40gig is just to high even with the salaries we have here in Norway.

@BrianK

Thanks for the link. Interesting!

Quote:

In the first year we've seen price cuts on consoles and 2 revisions each with it's own cut savings methods.

But how many revisions have we seen of the 360? 5? 7?
HDMI, Elite etc.
New technology (like Blu-Ray and Cell) gets lower prices faster than other things because
of (much) higher cost in the beginning.

Quote:

In the first 2 years the 360 maintained it's price

In anyway Sweden 360 has NOT maintain its price. It has gone down about 25-30% since
launched.

Quote:

In the first year the Wii maintained it's price.

It's harder to do price cuts when your price is already so low IMO. And no reason to do so
when you have no competition on your price level. Being the cheapest of the new
consoles.

Quote:

Clearly Sony isn't tracking their goals.

Clearly? How so?
I read somewhere that they had planned to sell around 8 million before 2008. They have
sold about 6 million now and will probably go way over 7 million before the end of the year.
This sounds to me as quite good expectations?!?

Quote:

'Sony (in USA) sold just 195,000 PS3 units in its first 13 days on shelves, according to analysts quoting preliminary numbers from The NPD Group, which tracks video game sales. That's well short of the 400,000 the company had projected.'

Yes, the US market has indeed gone worse than they expected. Much because the
success of both Wii and 360 I think.

Quote:

But, they cut off their nose to spite their face they should have included the PS2 chipset and cut off the PS2 after this Christmas.

I disagree. PS2 compatibility was good in the beginning but useless now.
Seriously how many do actually play PS2 games on the PS3? Personally I'm not
interested at all with PS2 compatibility. I couldn't care less if they add support or remove
it. I think most people feel the same. Some may have wanted it before but never used it
when they got the PS3 (more or less).

IMHO the 40GB version is a great idea coming just before the christmas sales.
If they'd kept the 60GB over christmas it may very well have been a fiasco.
They needed a price cut without loosing even more per unit.

I think it was planned to drop the PS2 compatibility eventually. They just wanted to have
some games on the platform before doing it. It may return some day as a completely
software driven solution. But I really don't think so.
Also I do think Sony has planned for lower sales than PS2 because of the higher price.
But it may very well be that it still has sold less than they expected.

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@Samwel

Quote:

Samwel wrote: @Lou Regarding sales.. What was the planned sales for the PS3 for the first year? How much did 360 and Wii sell in comparison? And what was their planned sales for their first year?

Keep in mind that the PS3 and Wii launched within a week of each other in the US and Japan, but PAL nations didn't get the PS3 until late March where as the Wii launched circa Dec 12 in PAL.

Regardless, pricecuts always spike sales for the month in which they go into effect, however we are also coming into the holiday season so all platforms should see growth over the prior quarter.

In Japan, the PS3 had 4 things going for it last week: a price cut, new hardware (40GB), a new color case (red) and Dynasty Warriors 5 (#2 on the charts for the PS3, #5 for 360).

So in Japan, sustained sales are the interesting thing. Also I misrepresented the 360 sales, it was 58XX, not 7000. Still a 2x improvement over the ~3000 norm.

@Samwel

Quote:

Regarding sales.. What was the planned sales for the PS3 for the first year? How much did 360 and Wii sell in comparison? And what was their planned sales for their first year?

Sales from launch: http://vgchartz.com/hwlaunch.php

One can compare PS1/PS2/PS3 launches Seems to be the PS2/P3 tracked pretty closely for the first 36 week. After that the PS2 takes off and the PS3 retains it's growth.

Expectations. I'm looking for #s but it seems Sony fell short of their launch goals at least in the US. 'Sony (in USA) sold just 195,000 PS3 units in its first 13 days on shelves, according to analysts quoting preliminary numbers from The NPD Group, which tracks video game sales. That's well short of the 400,000 the company had projected.'

Clearly Sony isn't tracking their goals. In the first year we've seen price cuts on consoles and 2 revisions each with it's own cut savings methods. In the first year the Wii maintained it's price. In the first 2 years the 360 maintained it's price -- supposedly it's now the longest selling console without a price cut. And of course Microsoft has now reported entertainment profits for the first time and Nintendo is reporting profits where Sony reports losses due to the PS3.


IMO Sony needed the $399, 40GB console. But, they cut off their nose to spite their face they should have included the PS2 chipset and cut off the PS2 after this Christmas. It seems to me Sony is relying on the past too heavily. In the end this will cost them their lead of last gen w/ the PS2. As many users and many within the industry itself noted this gen Wii,PS3,360 there is not going to be the clear winnings of 1 console such as the PS2 enjoyed.

Last edited by BrianK on 16-Nov-2007 at 03:07 PM.

@jtsiren
Quote:

Let's not make this into a PS3 (or Xbox 360 for that matter) bashing fest. I'd rather enjoy playing games!

Too late for that.. This thread was for having a Xbox 360 bashing fest from the beginning, so we might as well balance it with some PS3 bashing as well.

PS3 is coming to a year's age. It is only natural that more are starting to break. In addition the firmware seems to cause issues, I agree. Time will tell if dust collection or other things like that play a role, but overall I doubt this is anything like the launch/Zephyr Xbox 360.

Let's not make this into a PS3 (or Xbox 360 for that matter) bashing fest. I'd rather enjoy playing games!

Back on topic, or more so anyway, I still haven't received anything from Microsoft with regards to the steering wheel issue. Maybe I need to resend. No problem though, my wheel has been perfect. (Knock on wood!)

Last edited by jtsiren on 16-Nov-2007 at 11:12 AM.

@Lou

Regarding sales.. What was the planned sales for the PS3 for the first year?
How much did 360 and Wii sell in comparison? And what was their planned
sales for their first year?

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@Tomas

Quote:

Odd that MikeB has not posted on the matter yet..

Why odd? You can't be everywhere all the time..
I'm sure he's defending the PS3's colors on another forum right now.

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@BrianK

Well, the Wii's hardware numbers have sat at 35k for 2 weeks now. Prior to that 25k. It seems Japan is getting shipped a bit more hardware.

As for the PS3, a 40GB launch, an 80GB price drop and the launch of Dynasty Warriors 6 helped. It also helped the 360 as the 360 version is hidden in the top 10 there and hardware numbers were over double above the norm @ 7000 units...though down from last week's Ace Combat debut.

Let's see if everyone can sustain their improved numbers...

@BrianK
Odd that MikeB has not posted on the matter yet..

@Lou

Go little PS3. You finally pulled some impressive #s in Japan.

Wasn't someone looking for Sweden or something? Scandinavia ending 11/11
http://www.vgchartz.com/news/news.php?id=643
PS2: 6,261
Wii : 4,326
PS3: 3,628
360: 2,717

Worldwide Sales Order last week:
Nintendo has top orders. DS, Wii
Microsoft has 2nd based on US sales 360
Pulling up the rear is Sony. PS3, PSP, and PS2.

From @Thomas Quote:

Certainly is a strange coincidence.. Why would it fail for so many people exactly after updating the firmware?

Exactly. Had someone said the exact same thing @ the 360 MikeB would be jumping down their throat.

@Samwel
Certainly is a strange coincidence.. Why would it fail for so many people exactly after updating the firmware? There has not really been any unusual high reliability problems before. The firmware must be partially at fault here.

Last weeks Japanese software sales:

01. Mario Party DS (DS) - 235,000 / NEW
02. Shin Sangoku Musou 5 (PS3) - 188,000 / NEW
03. Super Mario Galaxy (Wii) - 74,000 / 325,000
04. Final Fantasy Tactics A2 (DS) - 23,000 / 215,000
05. Shin Sangoku Musou 5 (Xbox 360) - 22,000 / NEW
06. Castlevania: Dracula X Chronicles (PSP) - 19,000 / NEW
07. Wii Sports (Wii) - 15,000 / 2,197,000
08. DS Nishimura Kyotaro Suspense Shin Tantei Series: Kyoto Atami Zekkai no Kotou - Satsui no Wana (DS) - 13,000 / 129,000
09. Flash Focus: Vision Training in Minutes a Day (DS) - 13,000 / 690,000
10. Ratchet & Clank Future: Tools of Destruction (PS3) - 12,000 / NEW

11. Wii Play (Wii)
12. Kanji Brain Test 2.5M (DS)
13. Mario Kart DS (DS)
14. Mario Party 8 (Wii)
15. DS Bungaku Zenshuu (DS)
16. Pokémon Mysterious Dungeon: Time Expedition Party (DS)
17. New Super Mario Bros. (DS)
18. My Housekeeping Diary (DS)
19. Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter 2 (PS3)
20. Pokémon Mysterious Dungeon: Shadow Expedition Party (DS)
21. World Soccer Winning Eleven DS Goal x Goal! (DS)
22. Gundam Battle Chronicle (PSP)
23. Ace Combat 6: Fires of Liberation (Xbox 360)
24. NBA Live 08 (PS2)
25. Brain Age 2: More Training In Minutes A Day (DS)
26. More English Training (DS)
27. Tamagotchi no Puchi Puchi Omisecchi: Mina San Kyu (DS)
28. Animal Crossing Wild World (DS)
29. Dragon Tamer: Sound Spirits (DS)
30. Monster Hunter Portable 2nd (PSP)

3 PS3 titles in the top 30 with 2 in the top 10. Ace Combat 360 falls to #23; SMG showing good 2nd week #'s. Mario Party DS - could that be the next multi-million seller for the DS?

Hardware #'s later or tomorrow.
Edit:
Nintendo DS - 82,000
PlayStation 3 - 56,000
PlayStation Portable - 55,000
Wii - 35,000
PlayStation 2 - 9,400
Xbox 360 - 7,000

Last edited by Lou on 15-Nov-2007 at 06:08 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 15-Nov-2007 at 06:06 PM.

@Tomas

There could very well be bugs in the 2.00 firmware.. But to have these cause
hardware failure I'm having a hard time believing.
These failures was coming whatever firmware version those users had used
IMO. But freezes using software could be caused by a bug though. But also very
well just by being too hot, as we know too well from the AmigaOne hardware.

Too bad there's no way of cleaning your PS3 inside without breaking the warranty.
Like Sanyo's projector. You get a little pump which lets you blow air into holes which
cleans the inside of dust.

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