@MikeB

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I do respond to personal attacks

No Mike, you do not.

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And sure you do craft your messages with a more restraint than for instance Trezzer did.

The above is a perfect example of you not responding but attacking someone. Trezzer hasn't been a member of this site for quite some time now.

I strongly suggest you leave him out of further discussions.

Regards,
Joachim Birging

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Common sense - So rare it's almost like a super power

@BrianK

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Sorry to hear your girlfriend cramps from the vibration there is an 'off' button you can use so she doesn't have to take it at all.

I think that had more to do with the size of the controller.

@BrianK

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Mike if you're really serious about this thought you must have figured all the warnings given were for everybody except you. Sorry but no you haven't always been polite. Heck the above quote is an example itself on how you can be accusatory and defensive, not polite.

I do respond to personal attacks, luckily that doesn't happen too often even at most other multi-platform forums. The post I was responding to I would clasify as a posting including off-topic personal attacks.

Especially postings claiming others to be stupid I am happy to counter attack to point out the poster's own stupidity or bias.

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The question I have for Valve is do they use no online features or hook into the OS at all? If they do the OS uses at least 1 SPU and indirectly they are using an SPU.

OS code running on this SPE won't draw performance from the other 6 SPEs and in general the PPE, so game development potentially benefits. Currently there is so much performance headroom available to developers, many devs using the SPEs simply feel overwhelmed. So to have one SPE fully reserved until all major OS features are implemented IMO isn't a bad design decision, but from a marketing perspective it's less than ideal as mostly XBox 360 fans in the past often completely seem to neglect any performance usage for it.

Last edited by MikeB on 05-Sep-2007 at 06:06 PM.

@MikeB

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I think am fully able to keep discussions polite and add on topic information and perspectives, I think if you reread your personal input that's by far not the case for you

Mike if you're really serious about this thought you must have figured all the warnings given were for everybody except you. Sorry but no you haven't always been polite. Heck the above quote is an example itself on how you can be accusatory and defensive, not polite.

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the PS3 offers a lot of potential regarding gaming

I fully agree it offers potential. I just wish Sony would start actualizing some of it. Heck the Amiga offered lots of potential for a desktop.

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I was pretty unbiased with regard to the XBox 360 as a gaming platform at first (not anymore due to experience), claiming it to be a fine gaming system (but by no means a reason to diss the merrits of the PS3 platform) until personal experience and me reading up on the endless issues changed that perspective.

The 360 is still a fine gaming system and if you want next-gen games it's the title count winner. Yes great gaming when it works. Luckily about 70+% of people have had no problems and Microsoft has extended warranties out for 3 years so if we do we don't have to buy a new system if we happen to have problems.

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So what this means? IMO either the PS3 version is going to be clearly inferior unlike Valve claims or the PS3 version will be about on par without even tapping into the enormous bulk of the Cell's processing capabilities!

Or 'given our current optimization' -- means that they think they can do better. We know that GoW, for example, claimed to use the full console but also claimed their next game will be better optimized and better. When programmers develop they obviously learn how to work with systems better and incorporate them into their next games. GoW, for example, has been claimed to be a nice test base for porting the Unreal Engine to the PS3.

The question I have for Valve is do they use no online features or hook into the OS at all? If they do the OS uses at least 1 SPU and indirectly they are using an SPU. They must mean their code doesn't explicitly use a SPU. Impressive. Being the Cell core is roughly the same speed as a single core of the Xenon. I'd expect if they went back they could change their current level of optimization and reduce a 94% load on the 360. Of course that really doesn't matter unless they need the extra % for new gaming features and enhancement. One has to say the 360 is impressive that it allows developers to use 94% of the total system performance.

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Not for me and my girlfriend, we very much like the motion sensing abilities and I still prefer a non distracting vibration-free lightweight controller in most cases, like I do my with regard to my mouse and keyboard. My girlfriend does not get hand cramps anymore unlike she did with the XBox 360 controller

Sorry to hear your girlfriend cramps from the vibration there is an 'off' button you can use so she doesn't have to take it at all. The PS2's controller is better then the PS3 and the 360 beats either IMO. All lose out to the Dreamcast. Since the PS3 reserves 1 out of 7 SPUs for the OS and can use a 2nd SPU on demand I don't think we'll get to see anything truly use 94% on the PS3.

@Lou

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About PSP "Remote play" - you lose some functionality when doing so because of the lack of buttons on the PSP.

That would depend on the game in question, some PS3 games will not use motion sensing extensively and to remap the controls for the PSP may not be that big of a deal. Lair uses all the PS3 buttons and Sixaxis motion sensing, still it can be played just fine on the PSP.

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It's just basically a "wow - look at me" feature.

I think you are underestimating the usefullness and potential of this approach. The PS3 can store hundreds of gigabytes or beyond of data. People are now requesting the legacy emulators to be upgraded with such functionality, for instance being able to play PSX games stored on the PS3's harddrive over the internet. This makes sense as the PS3 offers by far more storage capabilities than the PSP does.

With regard to PS3 games which cannot be stored completely on the PS3's harddrive there's of course the limitation of someone having to change the Blu-Ray disc for you if you want to play another game.

Also interesting multi-player uses can be thought of. For instance having people using PSPs with dedicated screens instead of them having to use the same TV display as you (and maybe others do, Warhawk for instance allows the screen to be devided into 4 seperate sections for 4 player multi-player using a single console).

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The should relegate the "remote play" aspect to rear or side view mirrors in racing games.

That's just an additional option, which shouldn't per se interfere with other possible uses.

Last edited by MikeB on 05-Sep-2007 at 01:27 PM.

@jtsiren

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I had nothing against PS3 until MikeB started advocating it in our debate with his "style".

First of all we had arguments regarding AmigaOS4 and MorphOS before, so this really is nothing new. I know you repeatably claim to position yourself as an unbiased commenter with regard to your discussions. And sure you do craft your messages with a more restraint than for instance Trezzer did. But your very selective behaviour with regard to whom to criticize and what to praise shines through, highlighting that you at least have a personal agenda.

I think am fully able to keep discussions polite and add on topic information and perspectives, I think if you reread your personal input that's by far not the case for you.

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MikeB kind of gets under your skin and what better than a bit of "told you so", but that's just beside the point in the end.

A lot of crap was said by XBox 360 fans, yes I talked about what features the PS3 would likely get through firmware updates, yes I said I had my reasons to look forward to Killzone 2 as my most anticipated game, this at a time when nearly everyone was dissing the title (now there are many people like me), yes I corrected a lot or misinformation (regarding power usage, Blu-Ray strong or weakpoints, sales data and what not), commented about potential future uses like Remote play and DVR capabilities, etc, etc.

But no, the reason for doing so wasn't to say "I told you so" at a later date, it was meant to point out the PS3 offers a lot of potential regarding gaming and well beyond.

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A couple of heated threads later here, I found myself more on the Xbox 360 side of things in my comments because Xbox 360 IMHO deserved the defense here.

Well, there was a lot of crap flying around crafted by XBox 360 fans directed at PS3 orientated threads in the very beginning. I may want to remember you that the 'system1 vs system2' direction was initially taken by XBox 360 fans posting here at AmigaWorld, something I didn't expect to happen as the I am mostly interested in the Cell architecture as implemented in the PS3 myself and thought others would be too, but somehow it all turned into XBox 360 game a port to the PS3, looks a bit better on the XBox 360 type of discussion.

I was pretty unbiased with regard to the XBox 360 as a gaming platform at first (not anymore due to experience), claiming it to be a fine gaming system (but by no means a reason to diss the merrits of the PS3 platform) until personal experience and me reading up on the endless issues changed that perspective.

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I still don't know if either console is significantly more powerful

On paper the PS3 objectively is by a good margin. But here some food for thought with regard to Half-Life 2: Orange Box for both systems:

"For the 360 version of the game, we can probably say we are using around 93-94% of the console’s power given our current optimization. With the PS3, we can’t exactly say what power cap we reached, since no developer really knows where the boundary is for the PS3. We can tell you that in terms of the whole game together on the PS3, we are not even using the SPU’s and it is purely built on the graphics card and Cell. We’re still optimizing for PS3 more because we can, which can explain the slight delay to you. But no worries, everything is going smoothly to put down any rumors."

So what this means? IMO either the PS3 version is going to be clearly inferior unlike Valve claims or the PS3 version will be about on par without even tapping into the enormous bulk of the Cell's processing capabilities!

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I still think Xbox 360 has the better controllers

Not for me and my girlfriend, we very much like the motion sensing abilities and I still prefer a non distracting vibration-free lightweight controller in most cases, like I do my with regard to my mouse and keyboard. My girlfriend does not get hand cramps anymore unlike she did with the XBox 360 controller and I wonder if I would actually have been able to storm Super Stardust's top 100 highscores if I played the game using the XBox 360 controller.

Anyway a Dual Shock 3 controller is expected to be released around the time we get Gran Turismo 5 Prologue later this year.

@MikeB

Interesting how flying the dragon is possible with the PS2 & PSP's analog sticks but not the PS3. Sony convinced Factor 5 to push the gyro features of the PS3 and in this case, it turns out Sony initially used poor gyrometers/accelerometers in the initial PS3's. This would explain why some people have an easier time controlling the dragons.

Sony should recall all early PS3 controllers and ship new ones with bettor sensors AND RUMBLE to customers ASAP.

About PSP "Remote play" - you lose some functionality when doing so because of the lack of buttons on the PSP. It's just basically a "wow - look at me" feature. The should relegate the "remote play" aspect to rear or side view mirrors in racing games. That's a clever use. Gimped functionality for game control is not. This is akin to tacked on motion controls for certain games on the Wii or stylus controls on the DS. Use it when it makes sense or makes things easier and more intuitive.

Fyi,
After spending a few days with Metroid Prime 3, I now know I'll never use a dual-analog stick again for first-person-type games. Also, the graphics are unbelievable for 480p. Retro Studios are truly the masters of Nintendo hardware. I look forward to their next i.p.. Hopefully Geist 2...

Having taken a bit of time off from this thread and now coming back to it, I think something has been lost in the heat of the debate.

For example, whatever the Lair reviews (and probably relevant questions on whether or not the motion sensors in Sixaxis need that future upgrade), that shouldn't have to be a reason to gloat or taken as evidence of PS3 being incapable of good games or something. Same goes for discussion of Xbox 360 of course. Sure, MikeB kind of gets under your skin and what better than a bit of "told you so", but that's just beside the point in the end.

Threads like the ones we've had tend to magnify the bad and polarize everything and the debate brings out seeming biases in all of us that necessarily weren't there to begin with - remember my old comments that I had nothing against PS3 until MikeB started advocating it in our debate with his "style". Those old comments still ring absolutely true, I didn't have anything against PS3. Of course it is not just MikeB that was the reason, it was the whole debate which ensued and myself in it.

I had absolutely no Xbox 360 vs. PS3 agenda, say, last year. A couple of heated threads later here, I found myself more on the Xbox 360 side of things in my comments because Xbox 360 IMHO deserved the defense here. I think it still does in some ways. However, the downside was that PS3 got to be on the opposite side when I never really wanted, needed it to be there. Both systems have pros and cons. Wii is the real surprise act here.

So, here I am still with both systems running great and still without a Wii. I will be getting my Xbox 360 wheel retrofitted and buy a new Sixaxis when then get that motion sensing upgrade and rumble included that has been rumoured. I will buy a 65nm Xbox 360 when they get here, but then if my PS3 broke out of warranty or something I'd buy a new PS3 too. PS2, PSP firmly in the stable as well.

I still don't know if either console is significantly more powerful and I still think Xbox 360 has the better controllers (with smoke effects and all). PS3 needs that rumble right now. But none of this REALLY matters, because both systems are clearly more than capable of pumping out great gaming and both will have exclusives of which some I will want. As I did last gen with PS2 and Xbox 1, I'll just go with whichever system the game is on or reviews say runs it better. Time will tell the difference, if any.

I was never a particular console fanboy, I am just a gaming fanboy. I'm kind of sad about the reactions and at times ill-wishes, gloating etc. these debates bring out in most of us here, myself included. Time to zone out.

Edit: Mind you, I don't think this is just AW.net doing it. This goes for anywhere console, system, format or whatever debates are had - people just get wrapped in the "war" and the provocations from the "other side" (which nobody really remembers who started it) bring out a defence reaction and eventually an attack reaction that probably wouldn't have been there otherwise. Just look at how any comments thread on GameSpot or somewhere turns out, it is just ugly.

Last edited by jtsiren on 05-Sep-2007 at 07:04 AM.
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Last edited by jtsiren on 05-Sep-2007 at 06:52 AM.
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Last edited by jtsiren on 05-Sep-2007 at 06:51 AM.

Sony appears to be editing Microsoft Wikipedia enteries..
The Wikipedia Scanner has revealed that a computer with the ip address 217.18.23.2 edited the entry of Halo 3 back in April, adding the following line:
Halo 3, the third game in the best-selling Xbox game franchise Halo, is a highly anticipated first-person shooter video game under development by Bungie Studios for the Xbox 360 and is expected to "set a new high water mark" for next-generation games, ..EDIT SONY...although it wont look any better than Halo 2. ..END EDIT...

A query on the IP address shows it belongs to the scee.com domain name, which is the official site for Sony Computer Entertainment Europe

@_Steve_

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Even taking sales tax into consideration, the UK Xbox Elite would cost £255 ($500) since our VAT is at 17.5%.

For many companies, there are many other costs to take into consideration. For instance European minimum wages are higher than in the US and there are additional costs for localization and local support. For instance US XBox customers often have to deal with cheap Indian workers, often not very competent at speaking proper English.

@Lou

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Well, MikeB's been quiet since early reviews of Lair have been coming out:

I have been busy with other things. But recently I also wrote a forum posting regarding the Cell's SPEs, for which I surprisingly received lots of praise and positive feedback (on here I probably would have been slaughtered by fanboys!). Some people decided to turn the posting into an article, receiving hundreds of diggs and coverage on dozens of website and forums.

Regarding Lair, I think the US reviewers wrote some heavily biased reviews. All indications are that objectively unlike highly ranked crappy unoriginal and repetitive games like Madden and Tiger Woods this is a well above average game overall offering a quite unique gaming experience. The reviewers simply were incompetent (or have broken controllers), the Sixaxis controls being their main point of criticism.

From IGN I already expected a bad rating, as IMO they were completely unfair with regard to the cheap PSN game Super Ruba-Dub (giving it a destructive 2.9). The most heavily criticized point brought forward by the reviewers was that the motion sensing would be inaccurate, having earned my gold ducky IMO they were just incompetent (or have faulty controllers). Yes a shaky hand can trigger the duck to jump, but why doesn't it happen to me if it's really a sixaxis/game related flaw?

I and my girlfriend have had a lot of fun playing Super Ruba-Dub.

Maybe the reviewers expected the Dragon to behave like a Warhawk, this is how you should play the game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxPKXfRRNAY

Warhawk BTW is pretty awesome (good multiplayer like many FPS, but now on a much larger scale with Warhawks fighting up in the air), but of course the game doesn't steer the way you would handle a Dragon and received many lofty reviews. BTW, Lair can be played with PS2 controller using an analog stick and one really cool feature regarding this game is that it's the first PS3 game you can play through your PSP connected over the internet running the game on the PS3.





I think remote play and in the future streamig TV and recordings to the PSP will be important selling points for both the PS3 and PSP.

Last edited by MikeB on 04-Sep-2007 at 08:53 PM.

@GW

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I edited my post above so it says Microsoft instead of Sony. This might seem a bit stupid.. But I was thinking of Sony, and nothing but Sony, while I was writing the post above.

Thanks for helping clear up the confusion.

Also thanks for the point. Us not in Sweden don't always realize that in Sweden prices advertised by companies include the tax. We use our nation's bias where taxes are in addition to pricing. There seem to be other Europeans here complaining of high pricing in Europe. I wonder if their listing includes their tax too, like Sweden, of if tax is in addition, more akin to the US.

Well, MikeB's been quiet since early reviews of Lair have been coming out:
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/09/03/metareview-lair-ps3/#comments

I guess this is another supposed "AAA" PS3 title that won't move consoles.

Recent comments from Factor 5 indicate they are coming back to the Nintendo fold with a quickness. I'd love to see a Rogue Squadron 5 on the Wii pushing 30million polygons. They managed 15 million on launch with the GC with SW Rogue Squadron 3:Rogue Leader and 20million with Star Wars' Rogue Squadron:Rebel Assault.

Perhaps they will port Lair to the 360 and offer and analog stick patch to fix the flying issues with the dragon. Maybe the newer sixaxis controllers with improved sensitivity are better for the game.

Perhaps Sony should issue a recall on Sixaxis controllers in order to save this currently "unplayable" (for early adopters) game.

I truly believe Factor 5 are great developers. It would be sad if it is Sony's fault (controllers) that this game doesn't receive the glory it deserves.

Nintendo fans: Factor 5, we still love you - come back soon!

@BrianK

I edited my post above so it says Microsoft instead of Sony.

This might seem a bit stupid.. But I was thinking of Sony, and nothing but Sony, while I was writing the post above.

Last edited by GW on 04-Sep-2007 at 08:02 AM.
Last edited by GW on 04-Sep-2007 at 07:58 AM.

@GW

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GW wrote: @BrianK Quote: Sweden Premium = 3.300kr = $480 US Premium = $350 So yeah those in the UK (Elite at +$154) and Sweden (Premium at +130 and Elite at +$155) get to pay a penality on consoles. I assume the US price is without salestax.. The Swedish price includes 25% VAT (* ). So you have to lower the price with 20% to get a valid comparison. 0.8*$480=$384. That's still a bit higher than the US price but Sony shouldn't be blamed for Sweden's sky high VAT. (* ) = The shops in Sweden are required by law to state prices with VAT if they sell mostly to consumers.

Sorry just a bit confused by a line about Sony in there. My quote used 360 Premium pricing and your 80% calculation appeared to use the same $480 figure of the Premium. But, the line just after that was about blaming Sony for high prices due to VAT. Since you were using Microsoft quoted pricing and data don't you mean Microsoft? Of course the PS3 is impacted by this too it's just the transition was a bit confusing to me by using Microsoft data and concluding Sony shouldn't be blamed.

@GW

Even taking sales tax into consideration, the UK Xbox Elite would cost £255 ($500) since our VAT is at 17.5%.

This still makes it considerably more expensive than the US and by all accounts Sweden as well.

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@BrianK

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Sweden Premium = 3.300kr = $480 US Premium = $350 So yeah those in the UK (Elite at +$154) and Sweden (Premium at +130 and Elite at +$155) get to pay a penality on consoles.

I assume the US price is without sales tax..

The Swedish price includes 25% VAT (* ). So you have to lower the price with 20% to get a valid comparison. 0.8*$480=$384. That's still a bit higher than the US price but Microsoft shouldn't be blamed for Sweden's sky high VAT.

(* ) = The shops in Sweden are required by law to state prices with VAT if they sell mostly to consumers.

Last edited by GW on 04-Sep-2007 at 07:38 AM.
Last edited by GW on 04-Sep-2007 at 07:10 AM.

@_Steve_

I for one am glad to see Sony losing out in the European market, based on the fact that we get ripped off again by their crappy pricing policy.

Screw 'em, crap console anyway thats the size of a small moon.
Rude!

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2017 Camaro 2SS

@BrianK

We have always been screwed over on pricing in the UK. For a long time it was merely a case of swapping the $ for a £, and that was when the exchange rates were again still something like £1 =$2.

Sure certain regions will have variations in pricing, but the current trend to charge Europe a heck of a lot more for things is annoying - especially when we end up with what could be classed as "inferior" or "crippled" versions (such as the cost reduced PS3 costing us more than any other territory, and then we only ever had the choice of a 60GB model).

The poorer sales of PS3 in Europe should have sent a warning to Sony that this region was getting fed up with paying inflated prices when compared (using current exchange rates) to the same hardware released elsewhere. This and the fact that Europe tends to always be last on the release list (Japan->America->Europe) doesn't/didn't win them any favours.

The final insult to Europe is when announcements come of reductions in price of a unit not even available in Europe (XBox Elite for example), or reductions in pricing to hardware only announed in one or two territories (Japan and/or US) - I'd be referring to reductions in PS3 price in Japan, and HD DVD drive in the US here specifically.

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@Lou

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By the %'s, the Wii is more expensive. However, the Wii is $112 over, the Elite is $155 over and the PS3 is $170-$270 over cost depending on which model you consider relevant...

Consoles, cars, and various other things are not simply a US $ converted to a Euro $. Companies establish pricing in a country.

The Wikipedia Xbox360 page has a list of suggested pricing per region.
US Elite = $450
Canada's Elite = $499 or ~US $475
UK Elite = £299 or ~US $604

Similar things are found in PS3 pricing. In some countries the 360 Core is less expensive then the Wii.

Sweden Premium = 3.300kr = $480
US Premium = $350

So yeah those in the UK (Elite at +$154) and Sweden (Premium at +130 and Elite at +$155) get to pay a penality on consoles.

Last edited by BrianK on 31-Aug-2007 at 02:54 PM.