@BrianK

No, the NPD only covers US and has seperate data available for North America. For the second time: The World is bigger than just the US or North America, much bigger.

@MikeB

NPD shows different data then vgchartz for July.

Nintendo Wii: 425K
Sony PlayStation 2: 222K
Microsoft Xbox 360: 170K
Sony PlayStation 3: 159K

Analysts report the 360 did not slip as expected and due to the games coming, Halo3, they believe the 360 will continue outselling the PS3 every month through the holidays.

@MikeB

Quote:

Actually I have. AA batteries are not dangerous, faulthy adapters can be.

Then you realize since it's not the adapter, such as the original Xbox problem, that the analysis of burning down your home is the thing here that's also faulthy.
Summary: A component in the wheel chassis may overheat and release smoke when the wheel is plugged in to an electrical outlet

Last edited by BrianK on 27-Aug-2007 at 07:34 PM.

Re: the wheel, I think you guys are missing something important in the analysis.

The wheel is force-feedback when plugged in, rumble-only when used on batteries. Maybe the force-feedback mechanism is the one responsible for the smoke? I've never had any issues with mine (it is by far the best console accessory I've bought), but I'll look into getting that retrofit later on.

@BrianK

Quote:

You must have never worked with electricity or electronic hardware before huh?

Actually I have. AA batteries are not dangerous, faulthy adapters can be.

@MikeB

Quote:

When there is smoke, something must be burning....Many of the components are made of plastic, it doesn't take much imagination to imagine dangerous situations.

You must have never worked with electricity or electronic hardware before huh? The wheel runs on 2 AA batteries. 1.5*2 = 3 Volts of DC power. Something shorting a 3 volts will give a puff of smoke but is highly highly unlikely to cause an open flame and even less likely to burn your house down, well unless it happens to short on a open container of flammable materials or you've painted the wheel with gas. The AC adapter takes your home current switches it to DC and drops it to close to the 3 Volts, probably a bit more let's say 12 cuz I don't have one here to check the output.. The problem isn't the adapter, unlike the original Xbox, so it's not household AC strength but something near 12 volts. Depending on the type of short it will burn out and emit a puff of smoke but then with no path the 12V has no where to go and nothing else happens. It actually does takes quite a bit of misguided creativity to imagine a 12V DC current in this wheel burning down your house.

Last edited by BrianK on 26-Aug-2007 at 11:56 PM.

@BrianK

When there is smoke, something must be burning. I would be worried as well if there's smoke coming out of my TV set or any other electronics device that's not meant to smoke. Many of the components are made of plastic, it doesn't take much imagination to imagine dangerous situations.

@MikeB

Quote:

Quote: 50 reports that the video-game controllers overheated and released smoke when plugged in The issue affects 230,000 users. People are advised not to use the supplied AC/DC adapter and contact M$ support. Spread the word before someone's house burns down...

Microsoft needs some public flogging of some hardware people (designers or manufactures or QA ).

AC adapters should not be used but batteries can be, so the user is at most out $2 for batteries but not out use of the wheel. Yes about 50 units have reported smoke but to date none have reported open flame nor burned anything besides the effected parts.

@MikeB

Quote:

I imagine many XBox 360 fans feel like this, here two new reports from NeoGAF users who reported 360 deaths with second heatsink (posted after my previous NeoGAF quotes)

I am just looking for maximum justification for an upgrade. Given that 120 GB is useless for me, getting an Elite just for the HDMI (not really needed either, 1080p via composite just fine) and the black appearance needs a tad bit more to warrant the extra cash - Falcon might just be it with running cooler and hopefully even more silent. Reliability might be a plus, but since my launch unit is still going strong I guess my personal use is not stressing it too much. I'm sure one day it will break, since there clearly is an issue, but currently I'm looking for maximum reason to upgrade, if I ever will.

I'm one of those people that actually like the appearance of the Halo 3 Xbox 360 (would have to confirm live first of course), if that is ever available as a Falcon I might well go for that - unfortunately it may be a limited time deal that never gets to Falcon...? As for the quality issue in general, I think the popular response has been surprisingly forgiving. I mean, people could give Microsoft far more hell than they seem to be, and sales are again moving in a positive direction.

Part of that forgiveness - earner or not, I'm sure opinions vary - may stem from the expectation that Falcon will cure this, if that doesn't happen I guess we might see even more of a backlash. People are not going to look at quality failure forever. If Sony had a stronger offering (releases-, price-wise etc.) in the PS3 this opportunity would have absolutely killed Xbox 360. Microsoft got a lucky break, but then so did the PS3 given its woes.

This added with the HD format wars and Wii being the joker, what an interesting generation. Who would have seen all this coming.

MikeB wrote:

Quote:

50 reports that the video-game controllers overheated and released smoke when plugged in

The issue affects 230,000 users. People are advised not to use the supplied AC/DC adapter and contact M$ support. Spread the word before someone's house burns down...

@jtsiren

Quote:

Xbox 360 Elite finally hit the street in Finland, retailing about 200 - 230 euros below PS3. I liked the black appearance I saw in a store, but I'll probably won't upgrade until Falcon ships.

I imagine many XBox 360 fans feel like this, here two new reports from NeoGAF users who reported 360 deaths with second heatsink (posted after my previous NeoGAF quotes)

NeoGAF user1 (Manufacturing date is 2007-07-11.):"I got my european Xbox 360 Elite today. Woke up early and went to EB Games to pick it up.

Hooked it up to my tv and BANG!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gK8snOKol8"

NeoGAF user2:

This is my new 360 Pro with HDMI and second heatsink.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa289/vd0man/360-RIP.jpg

I got it yesterday. :("

More NeoGAF users' 360s being BioShocked:

NeoGAF user 3: "30 seconds into Bioshock, exact same thing happened to me. I'm now getting the RROD. Damn thing ran like a champ until I tried to play Bioshock, now I'll be late for Halo 3 unless I buy a new console. Are the falcons showing up in stores yet?

And when I send this one back, do I need to send the hard drive back with it? Do they format it? I'd be REAL ####ing ####ed if my console came back with all my data wiped."

NeoGAF User 4: "An hour later I tried again and it worked fine again, played a bit of bioshock and then boom, ROD again. Oh well,I was gonna send it back anyway.."

NeoGAF user 5: "Shit, Mine Red Ringed Just as i turned on Bioshock. Also, The stupid ####s at gamecrazy refused to take it back because it was three red rings, and not some other failure problem. ####ed away a good 40$ warrenty. ANyhow, do the ones the send back fail, and how long does it generally take?

Also, somthing tells me metroid Prime 3 is gonna be my new best friend for the next couple of weeks... sorry bioshock."

Last edited by MikeB on 25-Aug-2007 at 04:00 PM.

@minator
Quote:

minator wrote: The comment you were replying to wasn't about management styles, it was about product quality.

We'll disagree on that... Here's the thread
Quote:

Quote: No, but expect the head of Microsoft Gaming to tell the truth to shareholders and consumers? They surely don't seem to have a good track record... Microsoft isn't a company that allows crappy management styles.

MikeB's comment was clearly on management's handling of quality issues with the 360. My response was to the direct point MikeB had made on handling by management. The thread at the time was discussing IF another large charge back would be made in FY08 because the issues on quality are further being mishandled by management and weren't fully disclosed nor covered in FY07. So my comment was further on the discussion of management handling of disclosures and finances related to the problem of quality. Again direct and main point here is not if or how quality issues exist but the costs that were seen, and MikeB argues will be seen again, because, it appears, that the Microsoft Management didn't come clean about the true breath and depth of the quality issues.

Quality is definitely involved but the main point of the discussion at this juncture was my belief that Microsoft' team has a grasp on the problem and have allocated adequate resources in FY07 to repair the issues VS MikeB's belief that Microsoft's team is still lying and big $$ will hit the gaming division in FY08, continuning to make them not profitable.

Last edited by BrianK on 25-Aug-2007 at 01:24 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

Microsoft isn't a company that allows crappy management styles.

The comment you were replying to wasn't about management styles, it was about product quality. Something Microsoft seem to have never figured out how to make. In the software world quality doesn't matter, most people wont change system if it crashes. In the hardware world it's a completely different world, failures cost money - a lesson Microsoft are now surely learning.

_________________
Whyzzat?

Xbox 360 Elite finally hit the street in Finland, retailing about 200 - 230 euros below PS3. I liked the black appearance I saw in a store, but I'll probably won't upgrade until Falcon ships.

Last edited by jtsiren on 24-Aug-2007 at 07:12 PM.

@MikeB

I know you love posting the bad stories but there are good one's too. Xbox360fanboy just got his console back. From first call to delivery was 22 days. The unit he got was a refurb. The refurb is equipt with the new heatsinks. 1 free month of Live was included, seemingly to cover the 1 month without a console. Turned it on and it worked.

@MikeB

Quote:

"Failure rate is usually time dependent, and an intuitive corollary is that both rates change over time versus the expected life cycle of a system."

'Usually' is the keyword in that sentence. The question begs of what is the nature of the RRoD problem. The failure appears to be severe it well may be that RRoD get better over time. In that case the rate of change over time may well be better, not worse. Assuming they have found and repaired the problem in the console, as they claim, then newer revisions will be much less prone to the issue and at a failure rate that's well under 30%. For example, there have been Elites with RRoD but no where to the scale of the launch units. They're both predictions and neither can be shown to be true until time has elapsed. Nov 09 we can talk and see if the majority was hit or if it remains a large minority.

Quote:

The cable issues and steering wheel issues are potentially dangerous. Large summs may be required to deal with the issue at a later date

Perhaps. But you can't deny Microsoft admited to issues and had fixes available much much quicker then the 1.5 years it took for the console. So yup they learned something -- start dealing with the problem day 1 and start providing solutions quickly.

Quote:

Microsoft executives have promised that the Xbox business would become profitable by FY'07, which begins in July 2006." Which US media has actually reported on MIcrosoft not full-filling its promise? AFAIK none! Journalists seem to forget quickly. Even without the 1.1 Billion USD, there's still a 800 million gap

Yes the business would not have been profitable. Now internally to a business that's an issue of a different sort then repeated repairs and large charge backs. Business projections are semi-educated guesses. Missing a projection can or cannot be bad. It depends on the corporate environment and various factors. Your statement was that they'll miss their projections because the extent of the RRoD will cost more then the $1.1B they alloted to the issue. IF the reason that the Microsoft entertainment divison misses is due to another $1B charge for RRoD repairs the management will be gone. The stockholders are not going to allow another $1B to 'fix' a RRoD issue.

@BrianK

Quote:

So your contention is the failure rate is not 30% but 30% per year? So at the end of year 3 of a warranty the console will approach a 66% recall rate? I highly doubt it but let's check back in Nov 09 and see.

Of course!

"Failure rate is usually time dependent, and an intuitive corollary is that both rates change over time versus the expected life cycle of a system."

Quote:

I completely agree. But another lesson and one learned is that when a business has a problem it's best to meet it head on, find it, fix it and don't deny it.

Actually denying from a financial perspective can help for the short term and even for the long term. The financial guys working for Microsoft aren't stupid.

Quote:

Clearly this was done better handling steering wheel issues vs handling console issues.

The cable issues and steering wheel issues are potentially dangerous. Large summs may be required to deal with the issue at a later date. XBox 360s which simply stop working is of a different magnitude.

Quote:

Microsoft isn't a company that allows crappy management styles. The head of gaming likely had to eat a bit of crow about the 360 issues and costing the company $1B of unexpected expenses. If next year he come out and say guess what's it's another $1B then he will be fired.

Sure they have well paid people who would take the blame, but:

"Microsoft executives have promised that the Xbox business would become profitable by FY'07, which begins in July 2006."

Which US media has actually reported on MIcrosoft not full-filling its promise? AFAIK none! Journalists seem to forget quickly. Even without the 1.1 Billion USD, there's still a 800 million gap.

@MikeB

Quote:

Exactly, 30% for the first year of usage.

So your contention is the failure rate is not 30% but 30% per year? So at the end of year 3 of a warranty the console will approach a 66% recall rate? I highly doubt it but let's check back in Nov 09 and see.

Quote:

The lesson is prevention is better than semi-"cures"

I completely agree. But another lesson and one learned is that when a business has a problem it's best to meet it head on, find it, fix it and don't deny it. Clearly this was done better handling steering wheel issues vs handling console issues.

Quote:

No, but expect the head of Microsoft Gaming to tell the truth to shareholders and consumers? They surely don't seem to have a good track record...

Microsoft isn't a company that allows crappy management styles. The head of gaming likely had to eat a bit of crow about the 360 issues and costing the company $1B of unexpected expenses. If next year he come out and say guess what's it's another $1B then he will be fired. Actually he is smart enough to pack his bags. Which gets to the truth in my humorous comment -- they'll be gone and I'll gladly be a reference for you in a 6+ figure job.

Last edited by BrianK on 24-Aug-2007 at 03:15 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

Looks like a definition issue. Majority is over 50% not under

Exactly, 30% for the first year of usage.

Let's make it simple, let's assume we have 100 consoles with a 30% failure rate:

First year: 100-30 = 70 unaffected consoles.
Second year 70-21=49 unaffected consoles.

Assuming of course, XBox 360s don't become increasingly prone to failure in course of time like most other electronic devices.

Quote:

Your statement was that Microsoft hadn't learned. You give the example itself that Microsoft has learned

The lesson is prevention is better than semi-"cures". Expenses and costs have always been Microsoft's top priority, ever since they bought Quick and Dirty OS.

Quote:

It seems you are confident that you know the extent of the problem and the impact of financals better then the Head of Microsoft Gaming.

No, but you expect the head of Microsoft Gaming to tell the truth to shareholders and consumers? They surely don't seem to have a good track record...

Last edited by MikeB on 24-Aug-2007 at 03:13 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 24-Aug-2007 at 02:59 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

I would say it affect a majority of XBox 360 users, at an assumed failure rate of 30%

Looks like a definition issue. Majority is over 50% not under.

Quote:

No, they didn't learn. Already the original XBox torched people's carpets and alledgedly put some houses ablaze. After the reports they quickly recalled the powercords as they were afraid of expensive lawsuits.

Your statement was that Microsoft hadn't learned. You give the example itself that Microsoft has learned
Quote:

XBox 360s fails well beyond industry standards => Possibly worried shareholders => Keep quiet => Shareholder report (1 million broken unrepairable consoles already) => Possibly expensive consumer lawsuits => New warranty plan vs Smoking controllers => Potentially dangerous => Possible lawsuits => Microsoft recalls

Notice how 'keep quiet is missing' and the fix was issued immediately it didn't take 1.5 years to have them admit to and fix the steering wheel. They clearly learned how to handle problems better. Your issue is you wanted them to learn even more, ie don't cause them to begin with. That indeed would be a good thing that they have to learn. But it's unfair to say they haven't learned because they clearly did learn how to handle problems sooner and easier for users.

Quote:

I believe the extended warranty will cost Microsoft much more than the current 1.1 Billion USD. I expect their XBox devision to make a considerable loss for this fiscal year.

It seems you are confident that you know the extent of the problem and the impact of financals better then the Head of Microsoft Gaming. If you're right you can use me for a reference to take his job.