@BrianK

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While the 360 does have flaws that are impacting a large minority of users

I would say this affects a majority of XBox 360 users, at an assumed failure rate of 30% probably not the first year, but most people don't buy a game console to throw it away after 1 year of usage. With regard to the hardcore gamers I would even claim a vast majority of users will have to deal with these problems.

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Now I'm sure you'll likely count all PS2 and PS1 games in the PS3 mix. But really is it compelling to pay $600 to play PS2 games? Of course not and that's why the PS2 continues to sell.

It's mainly due to price tag differences, many people would prefer a PS3. Especially people with HDTVs as PS2 games are being upscaled and due to other benefits like not having to deal with memory cards and being able to use wireless controllers.

I would say the best PS2 games certainly match the best XBox 360 games in quality. The PS2 will survive this year and even motion controlled Tennis, Bowling. Golf, etc games will be released later this year, so a little competition for the Wii.

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Not surprisingly the next gen HD format was learned in the transition to the 360 and that knowledge was used to transition to the PS3.

Game developers gain knowledge all the time, Gears of War was the first Unreal Engine game to use the XBox 360's additional cores, so I guess their multi-threading experience helped a little.

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WTF are you talking about? It's clear Microsoft WAS able to learn from past mistakes. Microsoft this time didn't deny the problem, they didn't take nearly 2 years to find the problem and report it. Instead Microsoft saw the problem, hit it head on and and is making a fixes available.

No, they didn't learn (profits and marketing first, quality and safety last). Already the original XBox torched people's carpets and alledgedly put some houses ablaze. After the reports they quickly recalled the powercords as they were afraid of expensive lawsuits.

Smoking controllers => Potentially dangerous => Possible lawsuits => Microsoft recalls.

With regard to the XBox 360 failures:

XBox 360s fails well beyond industry standards => Possibly worried shareholders => Keep quiet => Shareholder report (1 million broken unrepairable consoles already) => Possibly expensive consumer lawsuits => New warranty plan.

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This better ensures profitability for the next year. I see little reason, unless there's another huge list of failures, the Xbox Gaming won't be profitable in FY08.

I believe the extended warranty will cost Microsoft much more than the current 1.1 Billion USD. I expect their XBox devision to make a considerable loss for this fiscal year.

Last edited by MikeB on 24-Aug-2007 at 02:17 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

I applaud the Wii outselling the XBox 360 considerably, I hope Nintendo and Sony will continue to marginakize Microsoft's marketshare considering M$ have gone cheap on its consumers by releasing a seriously flawed console.

Wow you've got some hate going on there bug. While the 360 does have flaws that are impacting a large minority of users it is being handled by extending warranties to protect user investments and changes of the console to prevent the problem from reoccurring. The 360 has a more compelling online story then the PS3 and more games then either PS3 or Wii.

Now I'm sure you'll likely count all PS2 and PS1 games in the PS3 mix. But really is it compelling to pay $600 to play PS2 games? Of course not and that's why the PS2 continues to sell.

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The Nintendo Wii doesn't really have a 41% marketshare for the home console market. You conpletely neglect the PS2, which even in the US is being played on well more than the GameCube, Wii, XBox and XBox 360 (half the playtime of the original XBox last June) combined.

The comparision that I included was from your lover vgchartz.com. They are comparing 7th gen consoles. Unfortuantely the PS2 is 6th gen. Yup it's still selling well and a good thing for Sony as the PS3 loses them cash.

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Epic is working with Sony to upgrade their Unreal engine

Of interest there was a recent statement from Epic about how Gears of War on the 360 has improved the Unreal Engine on the PS3. Not surprisingly the next gen HD format was learned in the transition to the 360 and that knowledge was used to transition to the PS3. Glad my 360 purchase is helping out my PS3 purchase.

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Microsoft seems to be unable to learn from past mistakes: "There is a lesson in the smoking controllers that work with the Xbox 360. Microsoft (MSFT) "will send out replacement parts for its Xbox 360 Wireless Racing Wheel after 50 reports that the video-game controllers overheated and released smoke when plugged in, the software maker said Thursday", according to MSNBC

WTF are you talking about? It's clear Microsoft WAS able to learn from past mistakes. Microsoft this time didn't deny the problem, they didn't take nearly 2 years to find the problem and report it. Instead Microsoft saw the problem, hit it head on and and is making a fixes available. Seriously take off the hate colored glasses you wear and see that Microsoft has and is making improvements.

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Note Microsoft told shareholders to expect the XBox devision to generate money for this last fiscal year and boy were they wrong! A 1.9 Billion USD loss

Outside of the $1.1B hit for repairs Microsoft's gaming division was nearly there. Yes there was still a loss. But, if you're doing finances you take the hit in a year where there's a loss already. This better ensures profitability for the next year. I see little reason, unless there's another huge list of failures, the Xbox Gaming won't be profitable in FY08.

I seriously doubt you're concerned about Microsoft losing money. With your level of hate I think you'd be overjoyed about losses. But look at Sony they've seen nothing but losses from the PS3 and the PS3 has 1/2 the users as the 360. Certainly if you're concerned about losses and believe Microsoft should get out of gaming then by your logic Sony should too, afterall Sony has lost more $ per unit then Microsoft.

Whatever your feelings about finances Microsoft has already stated that the 360 has met their expectations to the level where they're in for the 8th gen console war.

@MikeB

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I and many other don't like this. More reason for me to not upgrade my PC to play the latest games.

I don't like it either, which is why I patch the games I buy.

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@Zardoz

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Not really surprising nowadays. Other stuff only allow for a single activation.

I and many other don't like this. More reason for me to not upgrade my PC to play the latest games. Multiplatform game developers are now slowly moving towards SPE usage, like for instance Crytek is working on some "secret" PS3 technologies, Epic is working with Sony to upgrade their Unreal engine and EA will finally make use of the SPEs with their upcoming Fifa 2008.

Back on topic, Microsoft seems to be unable to learn from past mistakes:

"There is a lesson in the smoking controllers that work with the Xbox 360. Microsoft (MSFT) "will send out replacement parts for its Xbox 360 Wireless Racing Wheel after 50 reports that the video-game controllers overheated and released smoke when plugged in, the software maker said Thursday", according to MSNBC.

Of course, this follows other problems with the game console that lead MSFT to take a charge for $1.1 billion in warranty extension costs last quarter.

The Xbox has never made Microsoft a dime. In the last fiscal year. the MSFT entertainment and device division lost $1.9 billion on revenue of $6.1 billion. It is hard to imagine that the company can make up that $2 billion deficit."
http://www.247wallst.com/2007/08/microsoft-xbox-.html

Microsoft has now nearly lost 7 Billion USD on the XBox "business". That's a lot of money, to put this figure into perspective that's nearly enough money to give away 54 million PS2 game consoles at 130 dollar each for free!

Note Microsoft told shareholders to expect the XBox devision to generate money for this last fiscal year and boy were they wrong! A 1.9 Billion USD loss!

@everyone

The thread is now back on-topic, would you please stick to console failures from now on?

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@MikeB

Quote:

People are also experience problems with the PC version, mostly these are driver related though, but in one case a motherboard blew up.

That it not in any way the game's fault. Tell the user not to use el-cheapo motherboards with completely crap coolers.

Quote:

Also the PC version only allows for two activations even on the same hardware.

Not really surprising nowadays. Other stuff only allow for a single activation.

_________________

MikeB wrote:

Quote:

Back on topic, 360 failures seem to be on the increase again, this related to a new game called Bioshock, later more on that.

A sizeable minority of XBox 360 users are reporting random freezes and quite a few of them are suffering RRoD incidents. All of Kotagu's editors have now suffered at least one RRoD incident:

"The exciting and inevitable conclusion to the my-Xbox-360-starting-freezing post! On Saturday night, after playing the BioShock demo to death, I decided to fire up some Gears of War. I played for ten minutes and then it moved on from this world, leaving Red Rings of Death as a memento. To recap: I got the "checkerboard effect," and the next time I switched on a disc-based game, the box konked out."

NeoGAF members reporting dead XBox 360s after playing Bioshock:

NeoGAF user 1: BioShock killed my 3rd 360

"You unreliable piece of ****. Yes, 3 hours into BioShock, my 360 froze for the 2nd time (1st time froze 30sec into the game), and then I turned it back on to the lights of death.

The ironic part of all this is that I have EB Games warranties, so every time I replace my 360 at EB, MS gets an extra sale."

NeoGAF user 2: "BioShock just broke my launch 360, too... I didn't even get past the main menu. I've restarted it about a dozen times now. The first few times it was 3RROD. Then it booted up fine again. Then it carshed. One more 3RROD. Started to boot to the 360 logo, would crash and freeze in the middle (No 3RROD) for a few times. Now I get nothing at all. It simply boots up, no lights except the power symbol. The system just turns on, fans increasingly gets louder, and absolutely nothing.

So, now I'm thinking I won't be able to get this repaired for free, because I don't get the 3RROD anymore.

:|"


NeoGAF user 3: "You have got to be kidding me.I just got Bio Shock and Blue Dragon comes out next week and I go to play Bio Shock and I am greeted with this"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/cmagus/death-1.jpg

NeoGAF user 4:"o RROD, but I'm getting this #### all over my screen now. So, is my 360 gone now? Anyway, I have an EB warranty on it so I guess I'll get it replaced tomorrow...

FUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKK. I wanted to play this tonight. That's what I get for getting the game early.

"Things Break." No ####. MS why have you forsaken meeeeeeeeeeeeeee?!"
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/purgeface/DSC00798.jpg

NeoGAF user 5: "So I bought Bioshock today and played about as far as the demo goes. Had dinner, went back to it, and the game wouldn't load. Now the game either wont read or it gets an unreadable message after the title screen. So i started trying other games. When I load NCAA or Oblivion, I get a white screen with Japanese text that tells me I need to put the disk in a 360 (no S^$^)."

NeoGAF user 6: "Fuck, my 3-ring of death cherry popped...again.

Right when I ####in got Bioshock.

Anyway, I'm doing the towel routine. To see if that works. Any advice on how long and how the system should be set-up before doing that?

Also, I bought the 360 -- the 1st one broke, I bought a 2yr. warrenty for that one, used it to get my 2nd one -- which just broke right now, like 2 minutes ago. The exchange for the second one took place 1.15.07 -- it is now 8.21.07"

NeoGAF user 7: "I was playing Bioshock on my new Elite using my old 20gig HD (transfer kit ordered). About 30 minutes into the game, I got the dreaded "DIRTY DISC ERROR" and got kicked. When I tried to reboot the game, Bioshock would get to the title screen, then give me the Dirty Disc Blade of Damnation. It did this four times before I contemplated hammer therapy on my new Elite."

People are also experience problems with the PC version, mostly these are driver related though, but in one case a motherboard blew up. Also the PC version only allows for two activations even on the same hardware.

But I heard the game is actually quite good, I will probably wait for the PS3 version which should hopefully be based on the new SPE enabled Unreal Engine currently under development for the PS3 by Sony and Epic.

Last edited by MikeB on 24-Aug-2007 at 12:35 PM.

@BrianK

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As weekly data from vgchartz.com shows, the Nintendo Wii game console outsold Microsoft’s Xbox 360 by a margin of 2.3:1 worldwide on average each week since its release in November, 2006

I applaud the Wii outselling the XBox 360 considerably, I hope Nintendo and Sony will continue to marginakize Microsoft's marketshare considering M$ have gone cheap on its consumers by releasing a seriously flawed console.

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selling at an even faster rate than the most successful console ever created, Sony’s PlayStation 2.

To put this into perspective, the newer PSOne outsold the PS2 initially as well. Likewise have the SEGA Dreamcast, Nintendo 64, Super Nintendo and even the Nintendo GameCube outperformed the PS2 and PSX during the first months of availability.

One thing can be said about Playstations, they didn't sell amazingly well since day one, but sales increased gradually in course of time, the consoles had legs so to speak. IMO this all just underlines how early we still are for this generation.

The Nintendo Wii has the advantage of an entry price tag below the PS2 launch price and the GameCube got retired unlike the PSOne at the time and today unlike the PS2.

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As of 8/23 the Wii has pulled into first place with a 41.6% market share, followed closely by the 360's 41% market share and a distant third is Sony's PS3 with a 17% share.

The Nintendo Wii doesn't really have a 41% marketshare for the home console market. You conpletely neglect the PS2, which even in the US is being played on well more than the GameCube, Wii, XBox and XBox 360 (half the playtime of the original XBox last June) combined.

Food for thought:

- The PS2 has outsold the XBox 360 ever since the XBox 360's release.
- PS2 + PS3 (PS2 compatible) sales combined is > Nintendo Wii sales since release.

Summary of XBox 360 vs Playstation sales for the last 4 weeks according to VGChartz:

29 July:

1) PS3 - 106,760
2) PS2 - 102,835
3) X360 - 61,762

4/5 August:

1) PS2 - 99,791
2) PS3 - 99,126
2) X360 - 61,899

11/12 August

1) PS2 - 100,126
2) PS3 - 99,026
3) X360 - 78, 441 (North American price drop at end of week)

18/19 August

1) PS2 - 102,289
2) PS3 - 97,183
3) X360 - 85,533

Seriously, the XBox 360 should have done a lot better for its second year on the market. The console's first year (maybe due to lack of HD competitors and premature death of the original XBox) was quite good overall (super in US, bad in Japan), but according to VGChartz so far the PS3 performs slightly better during its first year on the market and this at a higher entry price.

Last edited by MikeB on 24-Aug-2007 at 10:24 AM.

@BrianK

Quote:

@MikeB 'The PS3 managaged to outsell the PS2 the last 2 weeks: Worldwide sales according to VGCharts for the last two reported weeks: PS3:............... 205,592 PS2:............... 205,389' Appears VGCharts has made some changes to the #s. Here's what they have now ending Aug 4/5 PS3: 96156 PS2: 101239 Aug 11/12 PS3: 94431 PS2: 100953

I just had the time to do a recount, the problem is that you've compared two different weeks than I have. I used the week prior, however VGChartz did slightly adjust their figures, but they actually upped the PS3 count and downed the PS2 count. The data for the week which ended 11/12 wasn't available yet when I posted my message.

According VGChartz the PS3 outsold the PS2 for those two weeks by more than 3000 units globally.

Last edited by MikeB on 24-Aug-2007 at 10:02 AM.

@MikeB

As weekly data from vgchartz.com shows, the Nintendo Wii game console outsold Microsoft’s Xbox 360 by a margin of 2.3:1 worldwide on average each week since its release in November, 2006, selling at an even faster rate than the most successful console ever created, Sony’s PlayStation 2. As of 8/23 the Wii has pulled into first place with a 41.6% market share, followed closely by the 360's 41% market share and a distant third is Sony's PS3 with a 17% share.

@minator

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Erm, this is consumer electronics - not a server!

Yup that's a weakness for TV in this house. We record something we want to see it a RAID gives us an extra data security option. Once the TIVO lost it's harddrive. I replaced it and the TIVO was promptly dropped for a device that has RAID to ensure no loss of data. No more listening to the family complain if something breaks and they can't get to last week's ever important recorded reality show. I like the family not complaining.

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Oh well, I guess I'll just get the Blade Runner final edition in the meantime

That's a problem here I have all 3 players do I really want all 3 versions? Certainly not the ultra special collectors edition with spinner for all 3. Though HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray version would make an interesting comparison.

@BrianK

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I really can't think of a worse device to do this on. Harddrives are the least reliable portion of hardware. Having content on a single harddrive is bad, IMO. Redundant reliable RAID hardware would be a much desired upgrade to include with the dual tuner.

Erm, this is consumer electronics - not a server!

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It'll be interesting to see how this impacts gaming. Perhaps that's why they are using 7 of the SPEs and 1 out of the 7 for the OS. This might allow gameplay and videorecording at the same time.

That's been theorised for quite some time.

Recent rumours are suggesting the 7th SPE is about the be freed up for use in games, it'll only be part time but better than before. More memory is becoming available as well, it's already dropped but apparently OS usage is now down to 72MB on the latest dev kit upgrades.


As for the BluRay / HD-DVD thing, I think the new deal is only going to drag things on longer, I still expect BluRay will win but it's just going to take longer. I like the way the inq has presented it:

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The deal is limited to 18 months which means that Paramount is off the hook if it all goes pear-shaped. If Blu-ray becomes the accepted standard in the meantime then Paramount has had its profits all nicely guaranteed during the tricky period where no-one knows who will win. It is a bit like betting on a horse and having your winnings guaranteed even if you lose.

All it means to me is I can't buy movies from those studios for at least 18 months, except that is for Spielberg's films, they will be released on BluRay. Oh well, I guess I'll just get the Blade Runner final edition in the meantime...

_________________
Whyzzat?

@MikeB

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Sony is going to release a dual-TV-tuner PS3 device for Europe

I really can't think of a worse device to do this on. Harddrives are the least reliable portion of hardware. Having content on a single harddrive is bad, IMO. Redundant reliable RAID hardware would be a much desired upgrade to include with the dual tuner.

It'll be interesting to see how this impacts gaming. Perhaps that's why they are using 7 of the SPEs and 1 out of the 7 for the OS. This might allow gameplay and videorecording at the same time.

Food for thought:

Sony Europe:

On to PS2. "Sales of hardware and software continue to exceed all our expectations."

"And it's still outselling our dear colleagues Xbox 360 weekly by a ratio of three to one."

Off topic:

I'am following Sony Europe's conference right now. Many interesting things, but most interesting to me:

Almost half of PAL PS3 users are online, indicating a userbase of around 1.3-1.4 million for PAL regions right now. According to Sony selling faster than the PS2, which would be fantastic considering it's about twice the launch price. Top selling PSN game in PAL regions so far is Tekken 5: DR with over 100 thousand sales (get Super Stardust HD now, if you haven't already!).

Sony did listen to my advice () from many full moons ago! Sony is going to release a dual-TV-tuner PS3 device for Europe, the device is about the size of a sunglass box. The PS3 DVR (HDTV +PAL support) will fully multitask, meaning you will be able to watch DVB TV on the road using your PSP (!), while simultaneously recording movies using your recording sheduler, while also using the PS3 for other purposes, all simultaneously! (Available early 2008)



Also apparently Fifa 2008 will be EA's first game to use the Cell's SPEs.

Last edited by MikeB on 22-Aug-2007 at 07:29 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 22-Aug-2007 at 06:56 PM.

@BrianK

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Businesses encourage other businesses --- AP also reports that Sony is paying a fee to have its Blu-ray player featured in the end-of-aisle display.

There's nothing malicious about that. If XBox 360s would be required to be placed in less than ideal spots as a requirement it would.

But according to the NY times the exclusivilty deal is only for 18 months.

"Paramount and DreamWorks Animation together will receive about $150 million in financial incentives for their commitment to HD DVD, according to two Viacom executives with knowledge of the deal but who asked not to be identified."

"The two studios may have left themselves wiggle room, however. Paramount’s agreement to use only HD DVD is limited to only 18 months. And Paramount noted that no films directed by Steven Spielberg were included in the deal “as his films are not exclusive to either format.” Mr. Spielberg is a co-founder of DreamWorks SKG, a unit of Paramount."

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I'm with jtsiren the HD 'war' isn't going to be over anytime soon.

Actually that's what I stated months ago as well, so you're with me on this as well.
But Blu-Ray cannot die, even PSP movies aren't dead.

@MikeB

Businesses encourage other businesses --- AP also reports that Sony is paying a fee to have its Blu-ray player featured in the end-of-aisle display. So it appears Sony may be 'bribing' the retailers to push their format.

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Both formats use identical codecs, so it makes no sense from a competitive business standpoint to lock out a larger market with better specs to a minority inferior legacy technology with a smaller userbase from a compettive market perspective.

This is business. Looking at the angle one take may be -- take the $100M, push HD-DVD and if it dies in 3 years then sell the same person a Blu-Ray, effectively increasing your movie sale because now the person owns the DVD, HD-DVD, and Blu-Ray.

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Sony doesn't own Blu-Ray.

Sony dropped Blu-Ray licensing fees?

I have both formats here they're fairly comparable. There's 2 compelling reasons for HD-DVD for me. First is interactivity. Second the stupid PS3 design that means no IR and no universal remotes. (And yes there's some work arounds the best one for me is just buy the HD-DVD instead.)

I'm with jtsiren the HD 'war' isn't going to be over anytime soon.


GETTING BACK towards the topic. I loved your Xbox360 posting. Overheating is of course Microsoft's fault. The incredible stupidity of a person that tosses an electric object in water is his Mom's fault -- either bad genes or bad upbringing.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: Back on topic, 360 failures seem to be on the increase again, this related to a new game called Bioshock, later more on that. Tell your kids not to do this (From Kotagu): "Apparently, a 14 year-old North Carolina boy was almost killed trying to keep his Xbox 360 from overheating. According to local news, the boy's mother found her son unconscious after he attempted to submerge the console in a pan of water. "When I left to go next door he was playing a game but when I got back he was laying on his back on the floor and unconscious," she said. The console, wrapped in plastic and tape, was still plugged in. The kid has read online that he could keep his 360 from over heating by cooling its power supply. By the time the ambulance showed up, the boy had regained consciousness. Thankfully, when the ambulance arrived, the boy had regained his senses. He was rushed to a nearby hospital and suffered small burns on his hand and foot. "

Ah, reminds me of the good old days before I got my 128D when I used to hang my C64 psu out the window in the dead of a New England winter.

Anyway, you can't blame a customer's stupidity or poor parenting on Microsoft... I can't wait to see some PS3 owner putting some patties on his PS3 - George Foreman grill style... ;)

I think the Paramount/Dreamworks HD DVD move shows anything can happen in these format as well as console wars. People shouldn't jump to declaring winners too soon, I remember saying so to Tigger on Blu-ray earlier this year here (he said the war was over) and I would say the same to anyone now suggesting HD DVD will win... Let's see how it plays out.

Last edited by jtsiren on 22-Aug-2007 at 07:54 AM.

Back on topic, 360 failures seem to be on the increase again, this related to a new game called Bioshock, later more on that.

Tell your kids not to do this (From Kotagu):

"Apparently, a 14 year-old North Carolina boy was almost killed trying to keep his Xbox 360 from overheating. According to local news, the boy's mother found her son unconscious after he attempted to submerge the console in a pan of water. "When I left to go next door he was playing a game but when I got back he was laying on his back on the floor and unconscious," she said. The console, wrapped in plastic and tape, was still plugged in. The kid has read online that he could keep his 360 from over heating by cooling its power supply. By the time the ambulance showed up, the boy had regained consciousness. Thankfully, when the ambulance arrived, the boy had regained his senses. He was rushed to a nearby hospital and suffered small burns on his hand and foot. "