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      /  Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
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BrianK 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 9-Jul-2007 12:40:44
#741 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@MikeB

This thread is 360 please stop the PS2 posting. If you want to discuss them please open a new thread.

Quote:
Company spokesman Geoff Croft told me that the main problem appeared to be the lead-free solder Microsoft used
Huh... Guess your idea of replacing all motherboards therefore will not fix the issues.

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MikeB 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 9-Jul-2007 8:35:22
#742 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

Also some interesting feedback from a NeoGAF poster with regard to the XBox 360 issues:

"As far as the reasons for the 360 failures go, here is another one I have been told about.

You remember that the independent UK repair service Micromart announced some time ago it would no longer accept Xbox360 consoles, calling the hardware defects ´endemic´. Company spokesman Geoff Croft told me that the main problem appeared to be the lead-free solder Microsoft used, probably in order to make production more environmentally friendly. In difference to standard solder, this one dries and gets brittle easier. This creates dry joints and the contacts on the boards become insecure, Croft told me.

See my blog for details."

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MikeB 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 9-Jul-2007 8:33:32
#743 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@AMiGR

Quote:
Like the plastic PS2 laser head guides, or like the bug that kills the PS2 laser unit altogether?


Out of warranty a new unit would cost something like 30 USD.

I've gotten some interesting feedback at NeoGAF regarding the PS2 launch unit issues:

"i have a launch ps2 that's still working. i've backpacked it around the globe and abused it way more than any other console i've ever owned. it sometime takes a while to load up cd games but i just smack it and away it goes."

"Yeah, my 2001 model PlayStation 2 is still breathing. It gets DREs every two years or so and it's always been due to dust obstructing the lens."

"Launch day ps2 over here. It has been brought to all my friends houses in its first year of use in a school bag. I got the dreaded DRE only a couple of days after my 90 day warranty expired. So I went on the intertubes (back then it was called the internet) and looked at a step by step illustrated walkthrough on how to dismantle the ps2 and clean the laser lense aswell as adjusting its distance from the disc. I've only had to do it twice since launch. It's been working for over 3 years since the last time I last took her apart. Yes it takes longer then it should to recognize a disc in the tray but it does get the job done."

"I have two launch day PS2's, both going good!"

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Zardoz 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 22:04:16
#744 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
The PS2 DVD problems were entirely fixable. IMO the XBox 360 problems according to manufacturers are due to bad design and cheap components:


Like the plastic PS2 laser head guides, or like the bug that kills the PS2 laser unit altogether?

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Zardoz 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 22:00:43
#745 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
So much for XBox 360 fans FUDding the PS2 (and PS3 initially).


Muh, no matter what people say, you'll stick to your views. Whatever.

The only PS2 owner I know that has not gone through multiple PS2s has not done so because I replaced the head of his DVD drive with a new one. Every other owner I know has had at least 2, all of them breaking out of warranty. There are even mods built to protect the head against a *known* hardware bug of the PS2.

Why am I saying that? Well, simply because your antics here are so transparent it isn't funny. Yes, it turned out that the 360 is screwed, I think we've all agreed on this but you seem to have double standards, since you are ignoring previous problems faced by other companies just because facing them would go against your established (by rather large nails) views.

Whole point is: MS has screwed up. MS has screwed up big time. MS has screwed up worse than Sony.

However, this does not mean that Sony has never screwed up in the past. and is also does not mean that no matter what happens MS cannot rectify the situation. They've taken the first step towards that direction, we'll see where it leads.

Last edited by AMiGR on 08-Jul-2007 at 10:15 PM.

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jtsiren 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 21:01:26
#746 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2003
Posts: 742
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
I've read up on the PS2 DVD issue.


Fair enough. I have nothing more on this subject - our differences in point of view seem well-enough documented to leave it at that. This thread should be about the Xbox 360 anyway.

I'll sign off for the night with the hope that neither my PS2, PS3 or Xbox 360 break anytime soon.

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BrianK 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 20:11:52
#747 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@MikeB

Quote:
The PS2 DVD problems were entirely fixable. IMO the XBox 360 problems according to manufacturers are due to bad design and cheap components:
It seems you think the DVD is the only PS2 issue. If so you need to read more on PS2 issues. BTW I sold Big Mutha Truckers because my new thin line failed to play it. So yes PS2 still has issues with incompatibility and is broken the fix as you say isn't to sell the game but fix the console. Let's get the thread back on track.

Now back to the 360...According to the transcription I posted Microsoft stated that serveral things are needed and feel they have a handle on it. I say let them fix it and let's see what the results are. Everyone now has a 3 year warranty if they can't improve the situtation with repairs and fixes before Christmas then I might be open to a full refund as you suggest. We don't see other companies doing full refunds with their issues so I disagree Microsoft should, to progress your thought, give everyone their money back and pull out of the market. That definitely ain't gonna happen.

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MikeB 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 19:27:56
#748 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@jtsiren

I've read up on the PS2 DVD issue. Repair centers repair it for around 50 USD, alternatively you can read one of the many do-it-yourself guides on the internet. But very often only the lens needs to be cleaned.

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jtsiren 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 19:09:52
#749 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2003
Posts: 742
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
Interestingly thousands of people are calling for a recall:
http://www.petitiononline.com/360recal/


Hey that's less signatures than the PS2 petition got...

Quote:
The PS2 DVD problems were entirely fixable.


I'm not 100% sure that is the case. People going through several PS2's and the market for laser replacements doesn't really confirm that, quite the contrary. (OTOH, who is to say the Xbox 360 issues won't be fixable - at least in time?)

There continue to be reports of laser failures on PS2, it is just that the problem has been lessened to such that it is more of an annoyance these days, but it has affected the PS2 market profoundly. I'm actually quite surprised you hadn't heard of these issues. I'm not saying the PS2 issues is bigger than the Xbox 360 issue (I think the Xbox 360 issue is at the very least more pressing and complex), just that it was very similar and that's the reason people have felt as they have about Sony quality. Like people will feel bad about Microsoft console quality for time to come even long after this has been sorted out... It takes time to heal, good for Sony that PS3 seems to be on a good track of remedying their rep quality-wise - kudos for that of course!

The PS2 issues weren't just the ramblings and trolling of Xbox 360 fanboys like you seem to suggest - and this is why people have said and felt they way they have about Sony. It is not like Sony handled their similar woes with PS2 all that gracefully either, so there are a lot of people still sour about that. This is just the point I want to make and please then lets try to move on, this is in no way diminishing the Xbox 360 problem and two wrongs don't make a right so I continue to hold Microsoft fully responsible for their failings and am awaiting for them to fix it for good.

While we're at the subject of online petitions, why not go sign Seehund's y'all?

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 07:12 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 07:10 PM.

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MikeB 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 18:47:14
#750 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@BrianK

The PS2 DVD problems were entirely fixable. IMO the XBox 360 problems according to manufacturers are due to bad design and cheap components:

Interestingly thousands of people are calling for a recall:
http://www.petitiononline.com/360recal/

So, maybe a refund option may not be a bad idea?

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BrianK 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 18:03:45
#751 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@MikeB

Quote:

I think Sony actually settled the dispute:

"Now a settlement has been reached which would give consumers who have recently bought, repaired or lost a PS2 with one of the specified model numbers a cheque for USD 25, a free PS2 game from a defined list, or a free or cut-price repair or replacement of their console - at SCEA's discretion."
Totally unacceptable. They should buy back my PS2, periphals, and all my games at my discreation even if I haven't needed the fix having that model # should be good enough.

@Thread
If you want to read the text of the Microsoft comments on the Red Ring issue here's a transcription
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/07/06/microsofts-red-ring-warranty-conference-call-transcribed/

A quicky summary is that Microsoft believes the causes to be multiple issues and have wrapped their engineering around them and has a fix to greatly reduce if not eliminate the current issues. At this point it's really TIME. Apply the fixes and let's see the impact. It'd be nice if Microsoft published some sort of impact % such as repaired consoles w/o the fixes VS repaired consoles with the fixes. That would show us how the situation is, or isn't, improving. Of course there will always be the haters which no matter what is done it won't be good enough.

Last edited by BrianK on 08-Jul-2007 at 06:04 PM.

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MikeB 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 17:47:45
#752 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@jtsiren

Quote:
Here is a description of the lawsuit prior to the consumer group winning it


I think Sony actually settled the dispute:

"Now a settlement has been reached which would give consumers who have recently bought, repaired or lost a PS2 with one of the specified model numbers a cheque for USD 25, a free PS2 game from a defined list, or a free or cut-price repair or replacement of their console - at SCEA's discretion."

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jtsiren 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 17:28:29
#753 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2003
Posts: 742
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
As an example the Sony PS2 had a return rate of between 1 & 2% The PS 3 which has only been in the market for 6 months is less than 1%.

Quote:
So much for XBox 360 fans FUDding the PS2 (and PS3 initially).


The PS2 suffered from laser issue mostly since launch towards spring 2003. A similar timespan BTW than for Xbox 360 from launch till pretty much now. Whether or not that number is representative or correct, clearly the problem was initially far bigger than we can say now after six, seven years. I doubt Xbox 360 will have a 33% failure rate come 2011... Some say the laser issues were never fully resolved so a common suggestion still is that PS2 not be used for DVD playing too much because it wears out the console sooner... I have never heeded to that recommendation, but I do see the recommendation often in PS2 forums. The issues, the class-action lawsuit and the fact that many people have over the years purchased number of PS2 consoles after they've broken is real. Does it make the PS2 overall a quality failure? In my opinion, of course not - but initially there was this very serious problem with the laser wearing out sooner than it should have (hence e.g. the lawsuit).

Just like there is a huge amount of cooling solutions etc. emerging for Xbox 360 because of its issues, a simple Google will find huge amounts of replacement lasers, laser cleaning solutions etc. for PS2 simply because the issues have been real and there is a market for solutions since Sony never really got around to fully resolving it.

Here is a description of the lawsuit prior to the consumer group winning it:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news03/playstation.html

Quote:
Despite numerous consumer complaints, the company claims it's an insolated problem.

"I have spoken to numerous people who have called Sony about this -- mind you, which isn't caused by normal wear and tear or misuse of the system -- and Sony still refuses to confirm that this is a mistake within the system," said Andrew of Warren, PA in his report to ConsumerAffairs.Com.

The suit charges that PlayStation 2 is not a reliable DVD player and that playing certain DVDs can shut down the unit. Sony denies deceiving consumers.

Sony is fighting the suit and contends the problem is not caused by the unit's design or by Sony's manufacturing process. It blames dust particles, dirt, fingerprints and scratches on the discs for the problems.


The comments here sound very similar to what MikeB has quoted here Re: the Xbox 360:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/home_electronics/sony_play.html

An Amazon guide here comments:

Quote:
The biggest problem is the laser eventually, over a long period of time, becomes unable to read discs and displays “Disc Read Error” on the screen. This problem is especially prominent in older versions of PS2.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syltguides/fullview/2L20PG9M7HNNY

There was even a petition for Sony to fix this:

http://www.petitiononline.com/ps2dre/petition.html

Something strange about that laser assembly in PS2, I never read enough into to it to describe it here, but anyone who owned PS2 for years (like I did and many others here) knows about these. You weren't there and you are now retroactively looking for links and comments to support your point of view, but that doesn't change what happened over the years. And hey, we were/are PS2 fans! I still think it was a great accomplishment for Sony, even if it was the least powerful of its generation. I still have a PS2 but I don't have any other last-gen consoles, those are sold.

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 05:37 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 05:33 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 05:31 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 05:29 PM.

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BrianK 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 12:45:12
#754 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@MikeB

Quote:
As an example the Sony PS2 had a return rate of between 1 & 2%
What the return rate of PS2s is off as a judgement of broken consoles. Consumers out of warranty with breaks are more likely to throw out and buy a new console. So the return rate for repairs is definitely a low estimate of broken PS2s. In addition a PS2 that cannot play a PS2 game is broken and therefore 100% of consoles made since 2005, V14 and up, are broken. Sony refuses to take returns on the issue. In the past there have been people that questioned this so here'sSony's list. There's also the PS2 power adapter issue which isn't considered a return as they sent a power supply and you threw out the old one. Sorry but this return rate of 2% is low compared to the actual % of consoles with issues. The software list and the power supply issues had to be pushed from us consumers -- the problem of manufactures lack of proactivity on issues is industry wide.

Sorry you side stepped off the 360 thread but this needed to be answered so you understand the PS2 issues are wider then what a return rate conveys. Now back to the 360...

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BrianK 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 12:00:24
#755 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@MikeB

Quote:
Read those threads yourself, the majority of shared views are negative stating the 3 year Red Ring of Death warranty is only a step in the right direction.
Knowing many people personality who have 360s and getting input from them directly which is more expansive then what an unscientific survey can protray you conclusion is wrong. The majority of people are worried that their 360 might break and their worries were lessened with the extension to a 3 year warranty. Though yes all want the problem fixed once and for all. First, like anyone they don't want their stuff to break. Second, they believe the 360 to be the best option of this generation for gaming and know that some people's fear of reliability will end up causing them to miss out on some great games.

Last edited by BrianK on 08-Jul-2007 at 12:22 PM.

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MikeB 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 11:09:56
#756 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

Smarthouse:

Quote:
In Australia Microsoft refused to return calls on the issue and their PR Company even went as far as saying that there was no problem and that SmartHouse was exaggerating. So we decided to contact retailers selling the Xbox 360. They reported massive problems with the console with several claiming that the return rate was over 30%


As an example the Sony PS2 had a return rate of between 1 & 2% The PS 3 which has only been in the market for 6 months is less than 1%.


So much for XBox 360 fans FUDding the PS2 (and PS3 initially).

Quote:
Asian manufacturers of the Xbox 360 who have been pressured by Microsoft to lower costs by as much as 15% say that the problem is caused by poor Microsoft design and the Company buying low cost components


Quote:
One Asian manufacturer that SmartHouse spoke to on Friday said "Microsoft have known of this problem for a long time. They are trying to blame component manufacturers but it was a combination of bad design and them (Microsoft) wanting everything cheap.


Quote:
A lot of manufacturers were pushed to deliver components without much testing of the components working together inside the console


Am I the only one why rather have a more expensive sturdy XBox 360?

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2007 at 11:27 AM.

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jtsiren 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 9:38:01
#757 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2003
Posts: 742
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
It was apparent that the problem worsened when the Xbox was standing upright, and that when tested under more normal conditions (using a non "laboratory", but stable setup, and guaranteed without touching the Xbox) the problems worsened even further. After five hours playing, of the nine thusly tested Xboxes, three had significantly scratched their games disk."


If it happens after hours of play, couldn't it possibly be heat related? Who knows what happens to the DVD drive if it heats too much from below... Maybe the disc begins to move erratically or something due to this overheating?

I acknowledge the missing protection pads that have especially caused problems when moving the console. One guy wrote a good online article about this and even showed and tested where to add the pads to fix the issue of moving console causing scratching - it was well documented with pictures and made perfect sense to me as to where THAT problem was, and obviously it can be avoided by not moving the console while playing.

The other issue is of course more serious...

I am just trying to understand the issues and speculate on their source. I'm not trying to dispute or disregard them in any way.

Last edited by jtsiren on 08-Jul-2007 at 09:44 AM.

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jtsiren 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 9:33:56
#758 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2003
Posts: 742
From: Unknown

@MikeB

Quote:
There are rumours that Microsoft is following a viral marketing strategy with regard to the extended warranty, signing up hundreds of accounts the past couple of months on message boards to steer discussions towards their prefered direction.


You are confusing this with Sony and the Blu-ray people... Hydra anyone?

Having said that, I wouldn't know anything one way or the other about the truthfulness of such rumors. It might be, it might not be, but the amount of posting I've seen, also in other languages than English would suggest that Microsoft was successful in making a bold, big move that got positive attention from many Xbox 360 owners.

I doubt anybody is disputing the fact that people regard this only as the first step - I do too! But the selection of quotes you made doesn't IMHO represent the total picture of what is getting posted out there and I just wanted to mention this. Many people think Microsoft is now on the right track, whether or not they stay on that right track of course remains very much to be seen.

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MikeB 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 9:05:38
#759 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@jtsiren

Quote:
I can see that, but it would be so much more beneficial when you go to such lengths to gather information on this matter to provide a balanced outlook on the different facets of this issue and the public reaction instead of just trying to strengthen your point of view/agenda.


Read those threads yourself, the majority of shared views are negative stating the 3 year Red Ring of Death warranty is only a step in the right direction.

IMO those who share their valid concern and criticism are more credible than the few shouting their praises. All these people bought a XBox 360 console, so they were open minded, IMO the few fanboys trying to attack or discredit concerns and shout their praises their statements aren't worth much, they simply are XBox or Microsoft fanboys and their stance is rigid nomatter what happens.

Quote:
even though I have read many, many threads in the past days with overwhelming amount of positive comments too


There are rumours that Microsoft is following a viral marketing strategy with regard to the extended warranty, signing up hundreds of accounts the past couple of months on message boards to steer discussions towards their prefered direction.

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MikeB 
Re: Mass failing of XBox 360, buyers beware! For UK alone 1500-2500 a day
Posted on 8-Jul-2007 8:53:23
#760 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2003
Posts: 6487
From: Europe

@jtsiren

Quote:
There seems to be two separate issues. Possible disc scratching when moving the console has been documented as at least some the drives don't have padding to protect against that sort of thing - that is certainly a mechanical thing that should be fixed and may differ from Xbox 360 revision to another. In the up-right position the console may be more susceptible to this, I don't know.


Like protection agencies and user reports pointed out disc scratching also happen in some cases without moving the console at all. There are two different kinds of disc scratching, one produces smaller scratches destroying the disc over time and the other is a carved circle destroying the disc instantly.

From Wikipedia:

"During this first test, the Xbox's Kassa tested (with TSST drives) could only be made to reproduce the problem by moving the Xbox 360 during the playing of a disk.[25] So Kassa's conclusion was that either not all Xbox 360s without protective pads would spontaneously scratch disks, or that the complaints were from Xbox 360 users who had moved their Xbox during use, or who used an unstable setup.

Two months later the program had received another 1000 complaints, with many customers denying the Xbox had moved when the scratching occurred, or was not placed stable,[26] while Microsoft was still denying the problems, and refusing to replace affected Xboxes. So Kassa decided to do several tests with multiple stably placed and untouched Xbox 360s from customers who claimed their Xbox had the problem.

These studies were designed to show conclusively whether or not the problem of spontaneous scratching DVDs was real."

"The results of the test were that even under "laboratory conditions," one of the nine tested Xbox 360s had spontaneously scratched a disk after five hours of gaming. It was apparent that the problem worsened when the Xbox was standing upright, and that when tested under more normal conditions (using a non "laboratory", but stable setup, and guaranteed without touching the Xbox) the problems worsened even further. After five hours playing, of the nine thusly tested Xboxes, three had significantly scratched their games disk."

Quote:
The other thing are these drive failures that seem to creep up people in time and may also result in the ring of death eventually - those would seem, just a guess, to be related to the GPU overheating (for which the motherboard warping etc. are to blame also usually, I guess). The GPU is located beneath the DVD drive and overheating there might eventually ruin the DVD drive as well.


- Also according to many reports the disc tray is also often providing problems.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oCvUY1GFXPE

- Not Recognizing Discs
"Many Xbox users have reported that their consoles will not recognize discs. When booted up the system will enter the Xbox Dashboard and at disc operations space it will report "Open Tray". If a game is inserted or not it will try to read then report "Open tray" again."

The European Commission asked Microsoft to recall and fix the 2 million affected units in Europe, but Microsoft after first denying the problem, then aknowledging the problem in response to tests is now again denying the problem blaming everything solely on consumers.

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2007 at 09:27 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2007 at 09:25 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2007 at 08:56 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2007 at 08:54 AM.

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