Please guys, let us not make this another Xbox 360 vs. the world thread. We have this very topical (as in timely with new information like Forza 2 issue emerging) and on-topic issue that we might actually have something new to say about (the Xbox 360 failures) - let's stick to that shall we!

If someone really feels there is something new to say about the console comparisons since last threads please can you start a new thread for those. I personally wouldn't participate until I have something new to say, I think the topic was pretty well exhausted for now and I doubt any of the opinions regarding the comparisons have changed.

@MikeB

Quote:

Of course it's current generation, it's still being sold

Being sold or not does not make it current gen. All I can tell you is I'm confident that near 100% of industry analysts jive with the 360/wii/PS3 layout as 7th gen consoles and the PS2 is 6th gen in the PS2/Xbox/Gamecube. Sorry you disagree with the industry rankings but you do.

Wow, so it took three pages this time to arrive at the usual "Next-Gen-which-is-best-sales-figures-and-screenshot-comparison"-discussion?

@MikeB

Thanks for your sincere and heartfelt advice. I assure you that I won't buy an XBox360. Luckily, my Atari 2600 doesn't have any overheating or disc-scratching issues. ;)

@BrianK

Of course it's current generation, it's still being sold. If you want to clalify this generation by system power or high definition graphics and sound, the Wii wouldn't be current generation as well.

The Wii-mote is a great input device with game like Wii Sports and Wii Play, but likewise is the PS2 eyetoy with Eye Sports and Eye Play.

@MikeB

Please don't make this about the PS2 sales. I in no way said bad things about the PS2. Just simply the truth which is the PS2 is not current generation. The PS2 is the best seller of last gen and still a good seller and still going , but still not current generation. I was talking about current generation which are the Wii, PS3, and 360.

@BrianK

Quote:

My statement was 'current generation' PS2 fails it's last gen. PS3 would apply but with the lack of games right now I think it's the worst of choices, perhaps Christmas and next year when it catches up in quality and quantitiy things will be different. Yup PS3 can upscale PS2 games -- thank good ness this expands it's library but hardly justifies with price when a PS2 will do nearly as well. I think the market reflects my views with the Wii pulling into first.

Nomatter what you think the PS2, 2006's best selling game console (including christmas 2006) is still going strong and is still outselling the XBox 360 and PS3 globally. So far I can judge from the PS2 games I have been playing on my PS3, the slimline PS2 is still a great value product.

The PS3 is a viable option for gamers, for instance the Blu-Ray games I own Oblivion, Motorstorm (now suppots multiplayer timetrials, great stuff!) and Resistance (should get an update today with new multiplayer maps) are great games offering many months of hours a day gaming, enough time for Sony to release their other great games. I have only just downloaded some new games for my PS3, Super Stardust HD, Calling of Cars and the PS1 game Crash Bandicot (upscaled and smoothed).

Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jun-2007 at 03:10 PM.

@AMiGR

Quote:

I find it very likely that the sales are going down because of the hardware quality reputation.

That's not the reason given, they reckon it's aimed too much at hard core gamers and they're limited numbers. That said they also said the game line up in Q4 should turn things around.

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Whyzzat?

@MikeB

Quote:

You are forgetting the PS2 and PS3.

My statement was 'current generation' PS2 fails it's last gen. PS3 would apply but with the lack of games right now I think it's the worst of choices, perhaps Christmas and next year when it catches up in quality and quantitiy things will be different. Yup PS3 can upscale PS2 games -- thank good ness this expands it's library but hardly justifies with price when a PS2 will do nearly as well. I think the market reflects my views with the Wii pulling into first.

@BrianK

Quote:

Really at this time if you want to game the only other choice for the current generation is the Wii.

You are forgetting the PS2 and PS3. I have more games for my PS3 than I have time to play. Also note the PS3 can upscale those great PS2 classics like God of War as well, me and my girlfriend have finished Ape Escape 2 and now every evening we play about an hour of Ape Escape 3 before gaming to bed.

@MikeB

Quote:

Microsoft deletes mass Xbox 360 crashing claims from Forza 2 forums

An unwise move.

It rarely helps trying to cover up a problem independent of if you are trying to cover up for Mercedez Benz original A series, AmigaOne/Articia or the Xbox 360.

The truth will come out and when it does, the original claims will loose the claimant a lot of trust.

Thinking back about the interview Takahashi conducted - the very least the Microsoft guy could have said was to answer each of those questions that their policy is to not discuss any faults in any way. Trying to feed some PR crap wasn't any smarter this time around than saying rumble is so last-gen (except this one is ways more serious because it deals with already shipped product's quality).

I wonder how Microsoft intends to turn this around? If they really were wise about it, they'd orchestrate some massive public action to turn the ship around. A lot of ground is being lost here - by a very good product otherwise, what a shame.

Last edited by jtsiren on 29-Jun-2007 at 02:29 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 29-Jun-2007 at 02:29 PM.

OMG, Microsoft coverup in the works:

Microsoft deletes mass Xbox 360 crashing claims from Forza 2 forums

Great customer care.........................

Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jun-2007 at 02:31 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

Y ou must have missed the previous posts.

I most definely have not, you were following the thread where I dissected the new mobo photo.

Quote:

Micrsoft, as shown in the Elite, has made changes to the motherboard and reinforced the CPU and GPU by gluing down the component to the motherboard. Elites owners are still reporting failures but rates appear to be less then the launch units. In addition, Microsoft has changed the coolers in the machine as shown on newer repairs that have been returned. Not sure if the new cooler design has made it into the console yet but likely it will be incorporated. So, no they're not waiting for cooler parts. The 65nm parts are coming and more then likely it should give additional help to the changes that have already been made to the system in order to help reduce heat caused issues.

Well, a little glue is not going to solve this problem once and for all, the whole thing is, even at 65nm, let's say that the fan dies, what is going to happen? The system will shutdown at a safe temperature. Safe for the chip's survival. What if the board warps at those temperatures? They need to reinforce the motherboard, no matter what. Not doing so is asking for trouble.

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@jtsiren

Quote:

It might be, but it is a *thermo*mechanical issue. Not just a mechanical one. The solution could require both mechanical reinforcement as well as better cooling - be that cooler parts, improved placement of parts for better natural heat-flow or improved cooling (better ducts, more efficient fans, heatsinks)... I'd be kind of worried that the only solution would be to just reinforce the board when heat over the GPU still soars up to unacceptable numbers and the only thing stopping it from killing the system are added screws swetting there...

Well, it depends on the safe operating temperatures of the parts. If they can safely work at 90C, for instance, it is perfectly acceptable to have cooling that lets it reach those temps provided that there aren't any mechanical problems. The PowerMac G5's northbridge is constantly between 70 and 80C under normal operation on the 2GHz model, for instance, and it works fine.

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@MikeB

Quote:

Survey stats are getting worse

Survey stats are just that a non-scientific survey. Who's to say people don't sign up to the survey's just to make the 360 look bad? This one might be a bit better because you need a gamer tag but game tags are free there's no need to own a 360 to get one. Who's to say people don't fill in multiple surveys?

Of the people I know there's no where near a 66% failure rate. There's only about a dozen people I know with one and there's been a couple replaced not half of us. Maybe they ship the good batches to Minnesota!


EDIT: Again if you want a 360 and are concerned get the Extended Warranty. A bit extra but a piece of mind. Microsoft has expanded their repair centers and the most recent repairs are a couple weeks total. Annoying of course if anything needs repair. Really at this time if you want to game the only other choice for the current generation is the Wii.

Last edited by BrianK on 29-Jun-2007 at 02:13 PM.

AGE (adult gamers) poll (321 total votes):

Launch units (36% of voters)
Launch 360 - No replacements (45 votes) 37%
Launch 360 - 1 replacement (38 votes) 32%
Launch 360 - 2 or more replacements (36 votes) 30%

Failure rate 62%

Later units (64% of voters)
Bought after launch - No replacements (103 votes) 51%
Bought after launch - 1 replacement (58 votes) 29%
Bought after launch - 2 or more replacements (41 votes) 20%

Failure rate of newer units 49%

Overal failure rate: 54%

TheOtherXBox.com (May 2007 poll)

Did the console fail? / When the console failed after purchase?

Under the first month 4% [ 2 ]
Between 3 to 6 month's 21% [ 11 ]
between 6 to 12 month's 27% [ 14 ]
Outside of warrenty 19% [ 10 ]
Still on my first, no issues as yet 28% [ 15 ]

Failure rate: 72%

GameSpot forum (March 2007 poll)

1-3 Months 140 votes
4-7 Months 142 votes
8 - 11Months 100 votes
12 Months - 90 votes
Never Broke (Knock on Wood) 646 votes

Failure rate: 42%

DVD Talk Forum (May 2007 poll)

No. I have not had to send it in. 77 43.75%
Yes. I have had to send it it once. 57 32.39%
Yes. I have had to send it it twice. 27 15.34%
Yes. I have had to send it it three times. 8 4.55%
Yes. I have had to send it it more than three times. 7 3.98%

Failure rate: 56.26%

Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jun-2007 at 01:59 PM.

@AMiGR

Quote:

Well, this is a thermomechanical issue and it should be treated as such, they should reinforce the board on the underside with a clamp or extra screws. Waiting for cooler parts to be producedis dodging around the issue.

Y ou must have missed the previous posts.

Micrsoft, as shown in the Elite, has made changes to the motherboard and reinforced the CPU and GPU by gluing down the component to the motherboard. Elites owners are still reporting failures but rates appear to be less then the launch units. In addition, Microsoft has changed the coolers in the machine as shown on newer repairs that have been returned. Not sure if the new cooler design has made it into the console yet but likely it will be incorporated. So, no they're not waiting for cooler parts. The 65nm parts are coming and more then likely it should give additional help to the changes that have already been made to the system in order to help reduce heat caused issues.

@AMiGR

Quote:

Well, this is a thermomechanical issue and it should be treated as such, they should reinforce the board on the underside with a clamp or extra screws. Waiting for cooler parts to be producedis dodging around the issue.

It might be, but it is a *thermo*mechanical issue. Not just a mechanical one. The solution could require both mechanical reinforcement as well as better cooling - be that cooler parts, improved placement of parts for better natural heat-flow or improved cooling (better ducts, more efficient fans, heatsinks)...

I'd be kind of worried that the only solution would be to just reinforce the board when heat over the GPU still soars up to unacceptable numbers and the only thing stopping it from killing the system are added screws swetting there...

Last edited by jtsiren on 29-Jun-2007 at 01:47 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Time for a major redesign? A 65 nm CPU won't necessarily help with GPU heat. Maybe they need to move the GPU from under the DVD drive...

Well, this is a thermomechanical issue and it should be treated as such, they should reinforce the board on the underside with a clamp or extra screws. Waiting for cooler parts to be producedis dodging around the issue.

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The Finnish Konsofin.net Xbox 360 quality polling thread reports 39 % failure rate of 525 consoles posted. Obviously most have had none break, but many have had at least 1 break. Only relatively few with more than 1 break.

Huge numbers indeed. Sure, these are mostly more-than-usual hardcore gamers that roam these forums, but all these reports coming in from all these sources (and across different language territories) would certainly suggest that a failure rate on somewhere between 20 - 50 % is not out of the question for Xbox 360. The reporting seems to have accelerated in the last few months after a bit of a lull after the launch issues.

Apparently sending out poorly fixed refurbs is only adding to the problem. The core issue seems to be the GPU overheating in the tight space it is in with X clamps adding structural issues that make the mainboard warp under heat and solders break. The hack-and-patch fixes from Microsoft glueing the GPU/CPU down and added heatsink for the GPU seem to suggest that they agree with this assesment, whether or not those fixes are succesful in the end remains to be seen.

Time for a major redesign? A 65 nm CPU won't necessarily help with GPU heat. Maybe they need to move the GPU from under the DVD drive...

Then there are additional issues with the DVD drive, but those do not seem to be quite as frequent. Maybe related to only some of the drives used in the machine and as such not a similar major design flaw.

Dean Takahashi wrote the excellent inside books on Xbox 360 and Xbox (I have the former here, I highly recommend) - he interviewed a Microsoft boss:

http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2007/06/a_qa_with_todd_holmdahl_the_hardware_guy_at_microsoft_about_xbox_360_failures.html

The response Microsoft gave illustrates their PR problem - they just talk crap. No way around it, that is just weaseling out like some unnamed competitors. Maybe this company line was instated by the legal dept or higher management, but still, crap.

Good comments after that article too, lots of stories how people really love the product but are getting more and more frustrated by it breaking down all the time. How can you blame them?

Kudos to Dean Takahashi for at least trying to ask all the right questions. He does really go at length about it, I'm very much a fan of his by now. His last question especially struck a chord with me:

"At this moment, I consider this to be your critical issue for this whole generation. What can you say about that."

Todd Holmdahl OTOH could go the way of Kutaragi for all I care, his answers deserve no respect at all.

Yes, this seems to be Microsoft's critical issue for this generation. The box is good (why would anyone get replacement after replacement if it weren't - it is), now make it last and make it right Microsoft or you loose the fight because nobody will deal with this forever.

This is like someone making your dream car. It drives the best you've had, only problem being it breaks down every 100 kilometers. Bummer. Truly a bummer.