@MikeB

Thanks, I've read you response - I won't get into debating issues as promised (I still disagree on the price and comparisons to competing products), this is not thread for that and I don't have much news to add to those opinions.

Just to clarify the over-heating issue: I did not know you had been unaware of the them in the past, nor was their current scope known at the time - I still don't know anyone personally affected, all few Xbox 360's I know are running fine.

Again, today we pretty much agree on what Microsoft needs to do regards to quality as I've said before in this thread and I continue to stand by those rather harsh comments of mine.

I like the Xbox 360 very much, but such quality control/design flaws are inexcusable.

Last edited by jtsiren on 29-Jun-2007 at 11:51 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 29-Jun-2007 at 11:47 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 29-Jun-2007 at 11:45 AM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

All I have to say on that is that I've known of the issues long before you told us about them, they are common knowledge.

I didn't at the time, apart from the mass problems around launch that I did hear of. I would have appreciated it if you would have told me of the overheating issues in those prior discussions, so I would have been more catious of overheating problems, possibly saving us some trouble.

Quote:

The quality needs to be resolved, but the for the price you get one heck of a gaming machine. I disagree on Xbox 360 being overpriced (especially in Europe where Wii and Xbox 360 have been more in line with U.S. pricing - at least on a hypothetical 1:1 rate - whereas PS3 is hugely more expensive) and comparing to the competition so does the market apparently - but this thread wasn't supposed to be about price or features or the competition, so I'll leave it all at that.

For me the hardware quality is crucial and a good qualtiy reflects on actual value.

MicroMart: "We're not taking that thing on board, we won't repair them"

"We would probably end up charging GBP 100 for a repair and we still wouldn't be happy with the end result"

IMO the PS3 offers much better value for your money, it's sturdy (How much $$ is that worth to you?), online play is free (How much is that worth to you?), the PS3 offers better specs like scratch resistant high capacity Blu-Ray, Cell, various card readers, Wi-Fi onboard (how much is that worth to you?), it pretty silent (how much is that worth to you?), etc.

IMO the only real advantage the XBox 360 has at this point is having more games available, which is normal for any mainstream system available on the market much longer. But IMO the PS3 games line-up is better.

Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jun-2007 at 11:49 AM.

@minator

Quote:

Anyway, MS has other things to worry about - Sales in Europe have said to have "hit a wall".

I find it very likely that the sales are going down because of the hardware quality reputation.

_________________

I'll shy from the debate, but I stumbled upon something actually useful I thought I'd post. Xbox 360 error code list and explanations to all different kinds of problems the ring of light might show:

http://www.llamma.com/xbox360/repair/Xbox-360-error-codes.htm

It is probably useful to check what the problem is before determining next course of action. 0102 error code apparently is the one where over-heating/structural issues caused breaking of solder joints - this is the one where the towel trick and X clamp replacement might help.

@minator

At a multi-platform forum I am posting to it's about 45-50%, note the over 30% figure is coming form a retailer who advises its consumers to bypass them and contact Microsoft support directly if there are any problems.

Quote:

Live Stats & Results There have been 5626 survey submissions so far Of the 5626 submissions: 1950 (34.66%) say they have NOT had a console fail 2320 (41.24%) say they've had one console fail 1356 (24.10%) say they've had more than one console fail Overall 3676 (65.34%) of submissions claim to have experienced Xbox 360 hardware failure 2251 (40.01%) submissions purchased their first Xbox 360 before January '06 Of these 2251 submissions: 1636 (72.68%) claim their Xbox 360 broke 615 (27.32%) say their Xbox 360 is still going strong The 3676 submissions citing problems collectively claim a total of 6088 broken Xbox 360s

Survey stats are getting worse, it may attract people with problems, but if those who already submitted their entry would be able to change their vote once they do experience problems the results may even be worse.

Of the 5966 submissions:
2027 (33.98%) say they have NOT had a console fail
2482 (41.60%) say they've had one console fail
1457 (24.42%) say they've had more than one console fail

Overall 3939 (66.02%) of submissions claim to have experienced Xbox 360 hardware failure

2388 (40.03%) submissions purchased their first Xbox 360 before January '06
Of these 2388 submissions:
1747 (73.16%) claim their Xbox 360 broke
641 (26.84%) say their Xbox 360 is still going strong

The 3939 submissions citing problems collectively claim a total of 6505 broken Xbox 360s

@MikeB

Quote:

It's now quite a while ago since the XBox 360 I had in use died and shared my thoughts on this.

All I have to say on that is that I've known of the issues long before you told us about them, they are common knowledge. Figures are hard to come by, so it has been hard to understand how wide the issue is, but the issue sure has been there. What has been happening since these times is that they have become even more serious as time has gone by, and yes I agree they are serious.

Quote:

IMO the XBox 360 is heavily overpriced for the hardware features and quality you get.

The quality needs to be resolved, but the for the price you get one heck of a gaming machine. I disagree on Xbox 360 being overpriced (especially in Europe where Wii and Xbox 360 have been more in line with U.S. pricing - at least on a hypothetical 1:1 rate - whereas PS3 is hugely more expensive) and comparing to the competition so does the market apparently - but this thread wasn't supposed to be about price or features or the competition, so I'll leave it all at that.

Bowing out. I'll be sure to read any responses made to me, of course.

Last edited by jtsiren on 29-Jun-2007 at 07:59 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 29-Jun-2007 at 07:57 AM.

The 30% failure rate is one I've read a few times. I've seen higher figures in polls though.
I've not seen anything even remotely similar about the Wii or PS3.

A 65nm shrink should help a lot but it's not clear when this will happen for the GPU, versions with a 65nm CPU are due in a few months.

Microsoft have never admitted to anything but 360's with redesigned insides have been seen - they have finally done something about it...

Anyway, MS has other things to worry about - Sales in Europe have said to have "hit a wall".

--

The Wii is still selling like hot cakes and they've just added the ability to write homebrew games.
Theyu were rather more honest about their problems, the controller had problems early on with straps breaking - it became obvious pretty quickly but unlike MS Nintendo did it right - they rapidly issued a recall and fixed them.

--

PS3 is still gradually selling but a price cut will be coming, even the Sony CEO has been talking openly about it.

More better versions of Linux are becoming available installation are no longer like having your teeth pulled. I'm waiting for IBM to support FC7 with the SDK...

As for Cell, there have been some interesting results from people working on Financial apps (European bonds if you must know) - A Cell blade (2 Cells, 8 SPEs each) beat an Intel system (2 x Quad core Xeon) by 11X on SP floating point and 3X on DP. The Intel system (the fastest PC you can buy!) has more theoretical computing power but still gets a sound beating.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@MikeB

Here's the link to the full article on pricing seems they were poopy and setup the site such that one can't link to images.
http://curmudgeongamer.com/2006/05/history-of-console-prices-or-500-aint.html

Quote:

After already having bought the console, how much extra would you have been willing to pay for the XBox 360 to have a life expectance of at least 5 years or more on average?

Good question to help put this in perspective I include my experience with the PS2. My first one was $300. I had to pay to send it back for repair and wait. The next time it was out of warranty but luckily the price had dropped to $200. So I bought the console twice.

Other consoles - 2 Dreamcasts, 3 Atari 2600s, 2 Genesis, 1 NES, 1 SNES, 1 PS1, 1Xbox (well owned 2 but because I wanted Halo green and my friend has my original Xbox which still works), 1 Jaguar (like there was enough games to ever break this).

Now more direct to the question I hope that 360 I have, which is a launch console, is at least that good. If it were to break today I'd only need a core system so that's a bit less. Looking at history this fall prices will drop on the 360. If not likely it'll be next year. When my console breaks the replacement again will be cheaper. So, I guess the answer is overall if it matches the two purchased PS2 then I'm fine with that. As of right now the 360 seems happy enough. If your numbers are right and 40% of people experience problems then likely since it's lasted this long I have a 60% chance that'll do better then my expectation.

Taking inflation into account 2 360s is still cheaper then 2 2600s.

@BrianK

After already having bought the console, how much extra would you have been willing to pay for the XBox 360 to have a life expectance of at least 5 years or more on average?

At least I myself look at a console as a long term investment, I want to feel unlucky in the event of having to contact support, so afterwards I have trust in my console to last a long time until for example a backwards compatible PS4 arrives.

Last edited by MikeB on 28-Jun-2007 at 11:05 PM.

Quote:

It's now quite a while ago since the XBox 360 I had in use died and shared my thoughts on this. Sadly some guys tried to debunk (or in some cases attack) this anyway these people could (not wanting to name names).

If you don't want a response, don't say anything. We all know who we are, whether you name names or not. That thread was locked, let's leave it there.

Chris

@MikeB

Quote:

IMO the XBox 360 is heavily overpriced for the hardware features and quality you get.

I guess if you mean that Microsoft is looking to make a profit on hardware, not there yet, then likely you're right. But, in some countries the 360 is priced at the Wii level. The 360 has better performing hardware and better video output then the Wii so clearly a better value in those countries.

Here's one comparison of consoles. http://curmudgeongamer.com/imgdisplay.php3?shotfile=console-prices-relative.png The 360 without harddrive is less expensive then the Atari 2600/5200, Intellivision, Mastersystem, NES, Genesis, Saturn, Xbox, PS1, PS2 and PS3. 360 with harddrive is still less expensive then many of those.

@jtsiren

Quote:

This is a legitimate grievance about Xbox 360. Finally MikeB found one.

It's now quite a while ago since the XBox 360 I had in use died and shared my thoughts on this. Sadly some guys tried to debunk (or in some cases attack) this anyway these people could (not wanting to name names). For instance, also the XBox 360 drive being so loud is legimate complaint as well, nomatter if it bothers you personally or not.

IMO the XBox 360 is heavily overpriced for the hardware features and quality you get.

Last edited by MikeB on 28-Jun-2007 at 08:37 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

Sony fixed any chance of PS3 issues by not making games...

True beauty!

http://media.psu.com/albums/ratchet_and_clank_future_tools_of_destruction/39594.jpg

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/66126.html
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/66064.html

Quote:

Kidding of course.

Of course, of course!

Tomorrow I will be getting Super Stardust HD for the PS3, to relive my Amiga memories. People say the remake is great and does use SPE power, maybe the first PSN game to really shine due to this unique power.

This summer may be brutal for the Xbox 360. The consoles are aging so many are more susceptible, games that really push it are beginning to emerge, heat will soar up as the summer days march by. There clearly is an over-heating issue with the box, probably also structural issues with the clamps making it worse (and to lesser extent a not-so-well-protected DVD drive against movement related scratching). I don't care about the percentages, enough is enough.

I agree - Microsoft should stop tip-toeing around the issue and get fixed and fixed right, and let us know the truth to some reasonable extent. If not numbers, at least acknowledge a problem and publish the plan to get it righted. That might require an expensive recall or something, but not fixing the issue for good might cost them a whole lot more market-wise. I know they are taking the steps, and maybe just maybe the new heat sink helps and the 65 nm even more, but I wouldn't be sure.

This is a legitimate grievance about Xbox 360. Finally MikeB found one.

Last edited by jtsiren on 28-Jun-2007 at 08:05 PM.

@MikeB

Here's what you are looking for -- The Micrsoft Deathstar 360
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkMA936ja08

Quote:

Microsoft official response to XBox 360 failure reports: Well, things break!

The whole line is ... Y'know, things break, and if we've treated him well and fixed his problem, that's something that we're focused on right now.... I agree the first part shouldn't have been included, just looks bad. But the statement as a whole is valid. Microsoft has improved repair times, improved repairs, extended warranties, and are continuing to improve these areas. We'd all love for no problems to happen but that's simply not going to be the case. The inital shaky quality has set the consumer frame of mind and is harder to fix then if they'd not have had the problems initally.

If Forza is the cause or not it's hard to say. In some cases it very well could be time. Forza is a newer game so probability says since it's played much more frequently then the 2 year game when a problem happens, due to age, it's more likely to happen on Forza.

Quote:

IMO problems will only get worse for the existing userbase with XBox 360 games pushing the hardware more and more

Sony fixed any chance of PS3 issues by not making games... Kidding of course.

IMO problems will only get worse for the existing userbase with XBox 360 games pushing the hardware more and more, causing more heat production. Maybe it was Gears which actually killed the XBox 360 I had.

Forza Motorsport 2 users (a XBox 360 game which has just been released) are complaining en massa about system crashes, check this huge thread with over 900 comments and growing rapidly:

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/1/178846/ShowThread.aspx

A few comments:

"Add me to the list. Mine freezes up about once per hour also, although its been getting worse. Console is well ventilated and in horizontal position. I've had the freezing problem and the "To play this disc please insert into an XBOX 360 console" problem. It occurs at the start up screen, in the menus, in the races..every part of the game. Like most people on here, Forza is the only game that I've had this problem with. When it freezes up I get a clicking sound from the console like a CD player skipping. Its frustrating cause I'm really addicted to the game....when it works."

"If we have problems, they should be fixed. Free. Because it's this game that is causing it, regardless if it's the 360's fault in hardware, THIS game is causing the hardware to fail and freeze and of couse I'm mad because I had to buy a new 360 because my old one BRICKED while playing Forza (no prior problems) and now my new one bricked too (playing FORZA) and I have to send it in for repairs. Within one week of buying it, my brand new out of the box 360 got 3 red lights. Because of FORZA."

Microsoft official response to XBox 360 failure reports: Well, things break!

Last edited by MikeB on 28-Jun-2007 at 06:07 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 28-Jun-2007 at 06:03 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

This is because Microsoft denies the problem and won't provide figures, so people start to investigate themselves.

Exactly! Failure rates and non-reporting is a Microsoft issue. Failure rates of electronics and non-reporting however is an industry wide issue as a whole. I'd like to see the industry raise up their standards so we can see the quality of any electronic device.

Quote:

Also of hundreds of consoles 30-50% of EA's consoles died when Microsoft claimed failure rates to be between 3-5%

Yeah you included that before. That was heresay of heresay at best. A reporter reported from an anonymous ex-EA employee who even stated he wasn't one of the developers working on the consoles but the overall feeling he got. Sorry reporting accuracies of failure rates don't rely on feelings we need accurate numbers. How many consoles did EA have? How many were production units and not alpha/beta? How many production units failed? What was the average timeframe of failure? We don't know there's no depth or details.

@BrianK

Quote:

1UP for example reported a 30% failure rate when researched they received this comment from a single store manager in Australia, hardly indepth research or good reporting.

This is because Microsoft denies the problem and won't provide figures, so people start to investigate themselves.

The retailer in question did not know the exact figure as they advised customers to contact Microsoft directly instead of coming back to the retailer when there's a problem. But still this retailer said they have no other product like the XBox 360 when it comes to failures, even when an unknown amount of customers bypass them by contacting Microsoft directly. Another small retailer recently claimed a majority the its sold consoles ( in the 20s) failed (can't find the quote right now). Also of hundreds of consoles 30-50% of EA's consoles died when Microsoft claimed failure rates to be between 3-5%.

@MikeB

It's a staff decision to keep these threads of the front page. End of moderation discussion. Feel free to PM DaveyD over it if you want, but it's off topic and against the TOS (to discuss moderation in public)

Last edited by Seer on 28-Jun-2007 at 04:00 PM.

_________________
~
Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
~

@MikeB

I don't know how much value passing along heresay is to define this issue. Even sites reporting this problem do such things.. 1UP for example reported a 30% failure rate when researched they received this comment from a single store manager in Australia, hardly indepth research or good reporting. The survey included is just that a survey and lacks scientific validity. As such it's subject to the biases of such site, perhaps it not only attracts 360 users but broken 360 users for some reason. One question that needs answering is how many broke inside vs outside the 1 year warranty period. The case of the 1 person with 11 failures is extreme and likely a statistical outlier. Someone I doubt we're getting the full picture from him. One question is I wonder if he's truly supplying sufficent cooling to the console. There are cooling guidelines in the manuals one should follow there's no indication if he is or isn't doing that. He very well may be putting the 360 in fully enclosed stand on top of a hot AV receiver and in such a scenario we'd expect the 360 to fail due to poor cooling. Working in the computer industry I've seen many businesses, ie people, do really stupid stuff and repeat the same stupid behavior. I doubt home users, since they are people too, are any more intelligent.

I don't know if you're really adding anything new as 360 problems are have been on the TV/radio news here along with many websites so the problem should be well known in the public if one tuned into the news. Microsoft has extended warranties from 90 days to 1 year, gives 1 year warranties on fixed 360s, and have added staff and sped up ship/repair times -- so yeah they're improving service for broken machines. Xbox Elites have newer motherboard configurations, newer heat sinks, and what appear to be fixes to help eliminate the overheating issues, and users of Elites are reporting lower rates of problems then the launch units - so yeah they are improving. Xbox is moving to 65nm cores and with such moves the heat is likely to be reduced - so yeah more improvements are coming. Microsoft haven't admitted the depth. Not an excuse for them but a reality that the electronic manufactures as a whole rarely admit to failure rates and instead we as consumers need to rely on 3rd parties to try and ascertain the situation. Lack of reporting is Microsoft's fault but it's the industry's fault too.

What I'd recommend to people is if they buy a 360 get the extended warranty if they want an additional piece of mind. Various retail outlets sell one and one comes in the box w/ the unit if you want to get one direct from Microsoft so there's at least 1 option if not 2 available to most purchasers. I have the same recommendation for anyone that buys a computer notebook, which have a higher failure rate then desktops.

I'll be sure to post to Amigaworld when my launch console fails.