@Tigger

Quote:

I'm not forgetting anything, Hyperion is trying to not complete a contract with Itec because its subsidiary (which was founded to take control of OS 4) may have had some questionable dealings. Hyperion isnt US law enforcement. They dont get to break the law because they think the other guys may be breaking the law.

You keep forgetting you are not a lawyer, every day it seems you forget that. So it would seem you are human and hence open to forgetting other things. Like what Spectre660 is right about, for starters. ;)

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

costs of developing the OS for 7 years

Do you realize how stupid Hyperion looks with that statement. They sign a contract in which they can be bought out for 25K. A sane person would seek to renegotiate or quit development when costs hit 25k. They keep going for 100'sk. If they are not really stupid or brain dead, they thought they would end up with OS4 all along hence the delay tactic. To my knowlege they have not paid developers, there are posts by some stating they are unpaid. They delayed so long Eyetech gives up. When things really start getting ugly final is released and back dated. They look no better than AInc. I agree with ssloie "watch your back".

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @Tigger Quote: I on other hand can get sued for your money back, plus penalites Once the contract is void, you easy recover 25K, once you can start selling the OS as ODM product for PowerUp cards, ACube + Efika or what ever, it just a question of time really.

First of all its over 40K, plus penalites, interest, etc. I have no trouble believing that number could exceed the 150K that is the maximum that Hyperion has made from the OS, while racking up over 1 million in debt to the developers. Hyperion is never going to be able to sell enough copies of the OS to pay the developers off if they debts they are talking about are actualy

Quote:

Do you think the option of going bankrupt is better? (never recover the costs of developing the OS for 7 years)

Hyperion has sat around, collected royalites and not paid the people writing the OS, what costs does Hyperion really have? They have debts to the contractors, but they are never going to be able to pay them. This OS isnt going to sell 20K copies at $100 a piece which would about be the break even point, so yeah I think declaring bankruptcy for them is probably a better solution.
-Tig

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Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @Tigger You keep forgetting you are not a lawyer, every day it seems you forget that.

You dont have to be a lawyer to know US law fairlanefastback. I deal with contracts virtually every day. Once again you go play strawman and attack me instead of my arguements.
-Tig

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@Tigger

Quote:

This OS isnt going to sell 20K copies at $100 a piece which would about be the break even point, so yeah I think declaring bankruptcy for them is probably a better solution.

This is true. If OS4 was released tomorrow for CSPPC, BPPC, SAM and Efika I'd guess it would sell 500 copies maximum over the next 12 months and nearly nothing after that.

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@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: Quote: fairlanefastback wrote: @Tigger You keep forgetting you are not a lawyer, every day it seems you forget that. You dont have to be a lawyer to know US law fairlanefastback. I deal with contracts virtually every day.

Hmm right, but what if the judge gets "confused" again? We'll see another satirizing post of your head exploding again (not posted by me). There was a reason though that person posted it and why it was, sadly so, but unfortunately still, funny. You choose to speak down to others with opposing views with absolutism and an authority that you do not hold. You also never get it that it might not come down to the letter of the law, let alone if you are really right about the letter of it. Your "confused" judge should have shown you that.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

You keep forgetting you are not a lawyer, every day it seems you forget that. So it would seem you are human and hence open to forgetting other things. Like what Spectre660 is right about, for starters. ;)

I am sorry that I am such a bad influence.

Can any one figure out how much ITEC sold OS4 to KMOS for ?
PDF NO 52 page 30 after "Now Therefore"
6,999,000 shares of KMOS at $??? .

But the rest is how an assignment should look.EXPLICIT.

Notice that this FORMAT is MISSING from the ITEC/Hyperion agreement.

Last edited by Spectre660 on 12-Jul-2007 at 06:25 PM.
Last edited by Spectre660 on 12-Jul-2007 at 05:48 PM.

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@Spectre660
Quote:

I sorry that I am such a bad influence.

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@fairlanefastback
Yes, it gets pretty annoying when someone repeatedly state's their opinion as if it was proven fact. In fact, that kind of behaviour is pretty close to trolling IMHO, even if it is unintentional...

P.S. Thanks to The_Editor for making me laugh so hard

Last edited by ChrisH on 12-Jul-2007 at 06:07 PM.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Hmm right, but what if the judge gets "confused" again? We'll see another satirizing post of your head exploding again (not posted by me). There was a reason though that person posted it and why it was, sadly so, but unfortunately still, funny. You choose to speak down to others with opposing views with absolutism and an authority that you do not hold. You also never get it that it might not come down to the letter of the law, let alone if you are really right about the letter of it. Your "confused" judge should have shown you that.

Tigger is obviously quite experienced in such matters, and his posts do sound self-confident. I may not be completely sure that he will be right on every count in the end (edit: in fact I have argued against him a couple of times in these threads), but he has made some very good points and stimulated the exchange of views. If you want to win the argument use facts, not volume.

Last edited by dirigent on 12-Jul-2007 at 06:08 PM.

@dirigent
You can also drive people away (or at least stop them reading your posts) by making too many (large) posts too often about the same thing.

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@dirigent

Quote:

dirigent wrote: @fairlanefastback [quote] Tigger is obviously quite experienced in such matters, and his posts do sound self-confident. I may not be completely sure that he will be right on every count in the end (edit: in fact I have argued against him a couple of times in these threads), but he has made some very good points and stimulated the exchange of views. If you want to win the argument use facts, not volume.

I invite you to point out the facts that were utilized by him here, directed at me for no reason:

http://tinyurl.com/ytvw9k

And how do you formulate that he is quite experienced to, putting it so nicely, be so "self -confident" (we call it rude in NY)?

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@redrumloa

Quote:

This is true. If OS4 was released tomorrow for CSPPC, BPPC, SAM and Efika I'd guess it would sell 500 copies maximum over the next 12 months and nearly nothing after that.

So they finish Gorky 17 and then sell 2500 - 5000 copies for AmigaOne + CSPPC + BPPC + SAM and Elfika for 100$ (and maybe a version for MorphOS and Linux), and few moths latter release a AmigaOS version 4.1 and sell 2500 - 5000 copies again.

Depths can be paid back over time, that’s how most companies do it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Jul-2007 at 06:45 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 12-Jul-2007 at 06:44 PM.

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@all

It seems AInc.'s/ITEC's lawyers read what Tigger says and act accordingly. Hence ITEC coming back from the dead and the NY lawsuit.

That doesn't make him right - it just means we have to stop posting in these threads so as not to give them ideas...as crazy as they are...

@Tigger

Quote:

No, Itec didnt break the law, Itec signed a contract in good faith, and paid money in good faith, they received nothing, so they broke no law. Hyperion signed a contract which they now imply was illegally taking Eyetechs rights away (if true they broke the law not Itec, because Itec received nothing).

Good faith and an company owning Amiga don't match... after all it's one and the same company.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

I invite you to point out the facts that were utilized by him here, directed at me for no reason:

You must admit though that this was in response to your using swear words. Also, if memory serves me well, you were the one to start posting off-topic personal attacks on him. In part that was caused by your misunderstanding of the "monkeys" thing. ("The monkeys may be mad I call them that", a standard tongue-in-cheek turn of phrase, not in itself equating the Friedens and the monkeys in any way.)

@dirigent
Quote:

You must admit though that this was in response to your using swear words. Also, if memory serves me well, you were the one to start posting off-topic personal attacks on him. In part that was caused by your misunderstanding of the "monkeys" thing. ("The monkeys may be mad I call them that", a standard tongue-in-cheek turn of phrase, not in itself equating the Friedens and the monkeys in any way.)

Are you saying I directed a swear word against Tigger? I think not. Even if I did, which I did not, what happened to your whole arguement about sticking to facts? Oh I see its suspended to support your arguement because you actually can not defend his post. Even if you supposed I started something now you are supporting a philosophy of two wrongs making a right. There goes any nobility you may claim to have.
And again to be clear I did not swear at him. So your point is moot. I did asterik a word in my post (that had no direction towards any individual) to specifically not type a swear word. The post is right there to see that I did not use as you contend "swear words". Nor did Tigger make any mention of swear words. Indeed he instead was making fun of the rest of the content of my post, which was two legal definitions.

I was not the only one that took exception to him calling them code monkeys and not worth almost anything an hour, and the assertions that real programmers could have gotten the OS done sooner and more easily and to the phrase you specificaly mention if code monkeys are supposed to be offended because the Friendens aren't even up to that low standard or if real monkeys are supposed to be offended because the Friendens don't scale high enough on the primate scale, or if he was calling them monkeys directly he was all over putting them down personally one way or the other, let alone their skills or the job they tried to do. You can try to sugarcoat it using semantics, he was putting the Friedens down, and rather nastily. I was not the only one to point this out. He has bones to pick, this much is obvious.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 12-Jul-2007 at 07:38 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 12-Jul-2007 at 07:32 PM.

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@dirigent

Quote:

dirigent wrote: Tigger is obviously quite experienced in such matters, and his posts do sound self-confident. I may not be completely sure that he will be right on every count in the end (edit: in fact I have argued against him a couple of times in these threads), but he has made some very good points and stimulated the exchange of views. If you want to win the argument use facts, not volume.

Tigger is obviously a good engineer. However, with regard to this lawsuit business, I don't think his opinions are reliable. He hasn't stimulated the exchange of views as he consistently ignores points made by others, and then restates his own opinions as fact. I have tried a few times to get him to support his assertions with facts, or at least tell me directly why my counter-points are wrong; each time he has ignored my points and restated his assertions (or even just never replied), over and over. There's no actual discussion going on; that would require him to acknowledge and address people's counter-points directly; he doesn't do that.

I gave up trying to discuss anything with him regarding the lawsuit. There hasn't been any discussion. When it comes to technical issues though, he is definitely experienced.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 12-Jul-2007 at 07:50 PM.

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@Hans

Quote:

Tigger is obviously a good engineer. However, with regard to this lawsuit business, I don't trust anything he says. He hasn't stimulated the exchange of views as he consistently ignores points made by others, and then restates his own opinions as fact. I have tried a few times to get him to support his assertions with facts, or at least tell me directly why my counter-points are wrong; each time he has ignored my points and restated his assertions (or even just never replied), over and over. There's no actual discussion going on; that would require him to acknowledge and address people's counter-points directly; he doesn't do that.

Well, I remember that Cobra and I were arguing strongly for Hyperion's side in the subcontractors question, and Tigger did not agree. In the end this question became irrelevant because it turned out that the contract between Hyperion and the Friedens DID include a transfer of rights.

These matters are complex, and the question what is "correct" and what is "incorrect" is not always so easy. Even with the apparently quite simple issue of the "subcontractors" some ambiguity has remained, and it would be the judge's decision.

From reading these threads (I don't have the time or legal expertise any more to participate), I see that Tigger puts forth many valid points. Spectre and Cobra, for example, have good counterpoints. Others prefer to attack on a more personal level, which as a reader I do not find quite as interesting as the factual arguments.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

I was not the only one that took exception to him calling them code monkeys and not worth almost anything an hour,

Note that a) this - admittedly quite blunt - statement of his about the monkeys was a report of what was said casually among pals some years ago and b) this quote illustrated his general and factually grounded point of view that the OS could have been done quicker with a more experienced team. He mentioned e.g. some technical discussions some years ago in which the Friedens changed their opinion about some important issue, does anyone know what this was about precisely?

So while he sometimes puts things a little directly, there are always clear factual arguments behind them. That is a very important point. It means that you can and should attack first of all his facts if you hope to win the argument against him.