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      /  Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
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Tigger 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 12-Aug-2007 17:13:02
#901 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@Swoop

Quote:

Swoop wrote:

Only because exec was in rom (hardware), and OS4 was made hardware agnostic.



I'm sorry but from the evidence presented so far exec is now less hardware agnostic then it was in previous versions.

Quote:

Both 3.5 & 3.9 had their rom's patched, because there was no new hardware produced, hence no way to upgrade the hardware roms.


Actually there were lots of ways to upgrade the Roms, they decided not to spend the money to do it, plus it was a licensing issue.
-Tig

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 12-Aug-2007 18:00:39
#902 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@Tigger

Quote:
I think lots of people could have done a better job. I'll state catagorically that if they had paid Bernd for 5 years to rewrite the OS and given him the source code it would be in better shape then it is now. The same for Sinz or Carl or dozen of others. Saying someone did better then AI isnt glowing praise. Eyetech delivered better hardware then AI too, remember how that worked out. -Tig



Ok, then back on topic, lets hope this Itec lawsuit falls through just like the other Ainc ones so that Hyperion can keep the OS, as we both agree they will do a better job with the OS than Amiga Inc can, just as you say above.

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stew 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 12-Aug-2007 18:44:51
#903 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2003
Posts: 453
From: Unknown

@AmigaHeretic

Perhaps we should hope that the OS is awarded to someone like Tronman and subsequently sold to someone that can do a better job than AInc and Hyperion. I don't think any awards will be given to either group for their efforts.



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xtergo 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 12-Aug-2007 19:08:39
#904 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2005
Posts: 87
From: Karlskrona, Sweden

@Tigger

Wow... are you really trying to convice us all that Amiga OS4 is a small update? Then you have to do more than increase the number of replies in this thread.

Or are you trying to tell us that OS4 should have been ready sooner... well that's another thing that I think everyone can agree upon. So why this frustration that feels like it's fed by anger?

If you're on a mission to change the minds of the majority in this forum I'd suggest that you use that energy somewhere else where it's more constructive and helps the commuity to grow.

/Xter

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zerohero 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 12-Aug-2007 19:10:39
#905 ]
Team Member
Joined: 4-May-2004
Posts: 2524
From: Uddevalla, Sweden

@xtergo

Quote:
If you're on a mission to change the minds of the majority in this forum I'd suggest that you use that energy somewhere else where it's more constructive and helps the commuity to grow.


But what if he's right?

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Manu 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 12-Aug-2007 19:27:17
#906 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

He might not be right but not totally wrong either.

I personally like Tigger's posts. It makes you think
that maybe just maybe the history of OS4 is not all
dancing bananas it could be something else too.

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AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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COBRA 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 12-Aug-2007 21:27:11
#907 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Tigger

Quote:
I think lots of people could have done a better job. I'll state catagorically that if they had paid Bernd for 5 years to rewrite the OS and given him the source code it would be in better shape then it is now.


What makes you think that one full-time developer can make better progress than two full-time developers and a dozen or so part-time?

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PulsatingQuasar 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 12-Aug-2007 22:01:41
#908 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 550
From: The Netherlands, Europe

The OS should definitely not end up with Amiga Inc.

To save the huge failure of the last few years and get as many people in as quickly as possible the Mac Mini in the G4 form should be supported as quickly as possible. It's the only way to quickly get lot's of new users. We all know by now OS 4 ran already on a Mac Mini. It should not take that much more time to get it officially supported.
Any other road will take too much time.

We know the Mac mini hardware is good and there is no other PPC hardware that can get to such a large volume as the available amount of G4 Mac Mini's.


What we do from there is another matter. At least this way there is quickly new hardware to let the user base and the programmer base grow quickly.

_________________
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A1200 PPC

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mlehto 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 0:12:54
#909 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Dec-2004
Posts: 1006
From: Unknown

@Tigger

You give so many opinions ( wich are just your opinions) that I can't and want pull them all up.

couple.

OS4 just minor update ? Never used ? I'm used practically every AmigaOS version published, and have to say, that it is much more than 3.5 or 3.9.

Exec, would you please defence your opinion about how exec is or is not hw agnostic ?

I think that you are way too biased, that I can take you seriously.








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umisef 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 0:50:17
#910 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Tigger

Quote:
I'll state catagorically that if they had paid Bernd for 5 years to rewrite the OS and given him the source code it would be in better shape then it is now.


Thanks :)

However, we both know that I would never have promised to get the job done in four months, like Hyperion did (not the least because I'd estimate at least 3 months to work out what "the job" should be, by getting as many bright people as possible to discuss as openly and passionately as possible all those annoying little assumptions AmigaOS/68k makes, and how to get rid of them for the PPC API while still maintaining as much source compatibility as possible for "harmless" software).

It is quite possible that the current state of OS4 (which in oh so many fundamental ways really is just a port of 3.x) is to blame on Hyperion's unrealistic management more than on lack of vision by their programmers. Working on a project which is always just a few months from release, for 5+ years, simply cannot result in proper software engineering. I have seen it time and again.... And while I would love to say that time and again, it comes back to haunt those managers, that's not true --- it comes back to haunt the customers, and often even more the programmers. The managers instead look at their customer retention rate, and follow-on contracts, and give themselves a raise for a job well done.

(What? Me, cynical? No way!)

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Samwel 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 2:08:42
#911 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@umisef, Tigger

Why do you always compare the 4 months timeline with what OS4 is today to
what it would have been according to the original plans? A simple PPC exec
with 68k emulator running most of the OS in 68k not updated..
That's how I remember it when they presented the plans anyway..

I'm not defending the 5 years it took to get it to this state. I'm not competent
enough to evaluate how long a project like this would take. Also I have no
idea what problems the team has had during these years (other than lack of
money).

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 3:35:23
#912 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@zerohero

Quote:

@xtergo

Quote:
If you're on a mission to change the minds of the majority in this forum I'd suggest that you use that energy somewhere else where it's more constructive and helps the commuity to grow.

But what if he's right?



If Tigger was right he wouldn't have to keep lieing to make his view fit the facts. For example he keeps saying it took them 5 years to port so they must suck. Ok well WHAT if it took them HALF that much time, would they be Uber coders then?? He say's 5 years this, 5 years that... My Grandma could have written an OS in less than 5 years Blah Blah Blah.....

Well, if he could count he would see the contract was signed on....

November 3, 2001

AmigaOS4 CD's went gold on.......

Monday, April 19, 2004

That's LESS than 2.5 years by my count... but people with an agenda well.... they count by 2's I guess.

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Tigger 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 3:47:17
#913 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote:
@Tigger

Quote:
I'll state catagorically that if they had paid Bernd for 5 years to rewrite the OS and given him the source code it would be in better shape then it is now.


Thanks :)


Your welcome.

Quote:

It is quite possible that the current state of OS4 (which in oh so many fundamental ways really is just a port of 3.x) is to blame on Hyperion's unrealistic management more than on lack of vision by their programmers.


Thats part of my point. People keep praising Hyperion. Hyperion is Ben and Evert, best case they were terribly incompetant at doing Hyperions part of the job, ie managing the project and more likely they continually delayed the product in an effort to use the bankruptcy clause to get themselves a cost free license. That doesnt mean the Friedens, Olaf, etc didnt do good work, it means the project was mishandled from the beginning (we'll deliver in 5 months) and was being mishandled until AI cancelled the contract. Thats what Hyperion did. The contractors worked hard under adverse conditions may be completely true, noone here knows the entire back story, but if Hyperion had signed the contract they did with AI with a real company, they'd have put them out of there misery years ago for gross incompetance. See what Rockwell did to MAI if you want an example from our little world of what gross incompetance and a contract get you in the real world.
-Tig



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Tigger 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 3:50:29
#914 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@xtergo

Quote:

xtergo wrote:
@Tigger

Wow... are you really trying to convice us all that Amiga OS4 is a small update? Then you have to do more than increase the number of replies in this thread.



It is a smaller update then several of the updates in the past. It took as long (longer) as the 2.1-3.1 combined in time, thats a pretty scary number.
-Tig

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Tigger 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 3:54:32
#915 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@zerohero

[quote]
@xtergo

If Tigger was right he wouldn't have to keep lieing to make his view fit the facts. For example he keeps saying it took them 5 years to port so they must suck.


The signed the contract in November 2001, in December of 2006, the announced it was done, thats 5 years and 1 month, so thats where the 5 years comes from, and honestly its not done then, because it still isnt ready to be distributed to the Phase 5 boards, you know the first boards it was supposed to be ported to.

Quote:

AmigaOS4 CD's went gold on.......

Monday, April 19, 2004


Even Hyperion's Evert Carlton admits the OS wasnt done then, surely you arent arguing with St Evert of the Holy Hyperion are you?
-Tig

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Tigger 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 4:03:00
#916 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@Samwel

Quote:

Samwel wrote:
@umisef, Tigger

Why do you always compare the 4 months timeline with what OS4 is today to
what it would have been according to the original plans? A simple PPC exec
with 68k emulator running most of the OS in 68k not updated..
That's how I remember it when they presented the plans anyway..


You can read Annex I and see the original agreement for what was to happen, some of it still isnt done, several other things have been added. Everyone here has to start seperating Hyperion (ie the guys who owe 1.1 Million dollars to developers for an OS they cant sell to anyone) and the developers themselves (The Frieden Brothers, Olaf, etc). Hyperion is 100% responsible for the lateness of the OS, both Bernd and I believe, it has all the classic symptoms of that problem.

Quote:

I'm not defending the 5 years it took to get it to this state. I'm not competent
enough to evaluate how long a project like this would take. Also I have no
idea what problems the team has had during these years (other than lack of
money).

Again not having money is Hyperions problem, not AI, not the developers. It took that long because AI didnt pay Hyperion anything excuse is just silly, thats what the contract says guys. Ben and Evert signed the contract and failed miserably at getting the OS out in a timely manner, as I said in an earlier post, if Hyperion had this contract with a real company (say they had subcontracted a part of our work), two or three years ago our lawyers would have put them 6 feet under and packed the dirt on that box they put Evert and Ben in no matter how could Olaf and rest of the OS4 gang were.
-Tig

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Tigger 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 4:15:30
#917 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@Tigger

Quote:
I think lots of people could have done a better job. I'll state catagorically that if they had paid Bernd for 5 years to rewrite the OS and given him the source code it would be in better shape then it is now.


What makes you think that one full-time developer can make better progress than two full-time developers and a dozen or so part-time?


Bernd wrote Amithlon in 1 year, I'd argue the PPC port is a simpler effort since they were provided the source code, even if you want to argue that its a harder effort, its a pretty big arguement that its a 5X harder effort then Amithlon, thus we'd either be further, or it would have been done sooner.
Q.E.D.
-Tig

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Dandy 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 4:28:32
#918 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote:
@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:
@Tigger

While I'm quite happy with this decision to pick H&P


Why?
-Tig


Why not?

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 4:32:40
#919 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@Tigger

Quote:
Bernd wrote Amithlon in 1 year, I'd argue the PPC port is a simpler effort since they were provided the source code, even if you want to argue that its a harder effort, its a pretty big arguement that its a 5X harder effort then Amithlon, thus we'd either be further, or it would have been done sooner. Q.E.D. -Tig



Two questions...

1. Do you currently or have you ever owned OS4?

2. If not, have you ever actually used OS4 in person?

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Dandy 
Re: Itec steps forward in the Big Apple
Posted on 13-Aug-2007 4:34:17
#920 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@Tigger

Quote:
Personally as I said before, dollar for dollar, month for month, 4.0 is by far the worst update we've ever had, and I go back to 1.1 days and teaching the A1000 to talk to the dolphins. In the time its taken Hyperion to get 4.0 we got 2.1, 2.5, 3.0 & 3.1 and probably the 2.04/1.4 stuff.



Yeah, but that's not really a fair comparison AND it's not really all Hyperion's fault.

Why?

Well, 1st, because during that time frame, not 1 but 2 operating systems were being developed at the SAME time!! OS4 to fool US ALL while top secret OS5 was being developed by some of the BIGGEST MULTIMEDIA ENABLING TECHNOLGY companies known to ALL of Europe! That's right, not JUST ONE but TWO different Amiga Inc's, one in Washington and One in Delaware, Itec, KMOS, AND a little company in India, OH YEAH baby, ALL working on Uber secret OS5!!! Why is that not fair you ask?? Well that leads us to the second reason, you see this huge conglomerate of companies had to take all the good coders and left Hyperion with nothing, just so that OS5 could blow Mac OS X out of the water! Bo Yah Baby!

So I think your comparison is a little jaded.






Now that's a really good one!

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