@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: @Tigger Quote: Fleecy told 6 beastiality jokes during the meeting, Err...no, I have no recollection of hearing him tell me any such jokes.

If you were at the developers meeting at the Gateway 2000 show, then you definitely heard the jokes, the VP of Adobe who sitting on my right definitely heard them. I may still have the video tapes from the show around in the tape vault. If you look back on Moobunny from May 2000 or so, there is a whole thread about the meeting and as least some of the jokes that were said as I recall.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Bah! Bill, where's your sense of humor? My nick is number6.
Quote:

Quote:Fleecy told 6 beastiality jokes during the meeting, Err...no, I have no recollection of hearing him tell me any such jokes.

I was trying to give you a chuckle. Oh, well...

#6

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*Secrecy has served us so well*

@Chip

Quote:

Chip wrote: Well, it seems you are the member of the OS4 dev team and you have the most knowledge on how many work has been done.

Chip, never said I was a member of the OS4 dev team, I just said in my professional opinion OS4 (with source) is not 5X harder task then Amithlon (without source). If you have something that you can point to that shows it is, great, tell us about it.

Quote:

Quote: or even what Altivec is? No, I don't. Tell me about that thing, my master.

Altivec is the SIMD and FPU instruction set for the PPC processor which first came about in the G4 processor. Several of the Powerstation modules can see significant improvements in using it instead of the normal processor for certain functions (Cinematte is about 4X faster for instance on the Mac version when using Altivec), the problem is that there arent enough G4 (or Altivec enabled) amigas for it to be cost effective to support the port, but if that changes, Kermit and I will probably revisit doing it in the future.

Quote:

Quote: After I fixed the boards, I played with the OS rather extensively to see that they were working correctly. Plus the one I had borrowed to look at the Powerstation upgrade. And what was the outcome? Cannot do it because of 'lacking' WarpOS support?

No, it could be done, but even if you can get to the Altivec easily, the market is only a couple of 100 boards at this time, maybe less, a port for a market of 200 isnt feasible.

Quote:

Do you have any particular point or just came up with another useless bashing like a broken record ?

You notice I'm not the one who posted the problem with the Terons, you did. I said I repaired some Teron boards, you said that had nothing to do with OS 4, I find that funny but several of your comments are funny so I explained why I think it was OS 4 related and you come back with comments implying you think the Articia isn't flawed. You do realize MAI is out of business because of the Articia flaw, right?
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: @Tigger Bah! Bill, where's your sense of humor? My nick is number6. Quote: Quote:Fleecy told 6 beastiality jokes during the meeting, Err...no, I have no recollection of hearing him tell me any such jokes. I was trying to give you a chuckle. Oh, well... #6

Oh, that was very good, it just went over my head today, its 103 here and so my search of the smoking courts for missing techs is more then a little uncomfortable.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: Quote: do you know who The Frog is Can I play too? Kermit?

Yep, actually had a bunch of people at the 97 gateway show convinced that his initials were KTFW, he's been known to threaten revenge for that every once in awhile.
-Tig

For the non native English speakers

KTFW = Kermit "The Frog" Woodall

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

So it was Hyperions goal and original schedule to deliver in 5 years? I mean thats basically what you are arguing here.

Wrong again my friend, first of all they delivered what was asked for in the contract 3 years (or at most 3.5 years) after the contract was signed, not 5. Secondly their contract was for a completely different hardware, as an addon to classic Amiga hardware, thus their effort estimation can hardly be accurate for what turned out to be the AmigaOne (and I'm sure anyone competent agrees how big an effort it must have been to get the OS working as well as it is on that particular hardware/chipset). The point you keep missing is that what they had to do is not what they did the effort estimation for, and the changes were not Hyperion's fault, but the fault of the other parties (Eyetech/Escena for not delivering the proposed hardware, and AInc for not delivering adequate source code and documentation).

Also, you know very well how difficult Amiga Inc. are to deal with, and no clever management could get a better deal/contract out of them. Even a court order for them to pay an ex-employee (Bolton Peck) was not enough for these people to do their part of a deal. The Kent Arena screwup is the latest example, I think it speaks for itself, and it does not take a genious to see who/what the problem is/has been for OS4.

Quote:

You have much to learn about sensing young Padwan.

Hehe, luckily one does not have to be a jedi master to know what it means when someone is utterly annoyed by someone else being praised

@Tigger

Despite what Your NDA covers or not, there is still couple of things, what I don't understand.

Anyway I didn't got point, why you needed bash Fleecy with inside information, what you had.

How on earth you have time and energy for that continous ranting and bashing this and that, since you are most multitalented person, what I know. Including general engineering, computer engineering, programming with several main stream languages, US law, qualified judge, just to mention couple.

I just mean that if you have all these skills, you supposelly don't need to use your time things like that. If you are at work with these skills, you should work. And usually good paid people have life allso.

I think, that you have personal problem(s), since you seem to be really ego- and self-centric. You should do something with that (seriously).

In here where I live, we have name for that and it is cukcoo-disease. Usually people, who has that, get fired.

If you are man in mission, you don't get many souls with your style.

Or maybe you are just troll, pretty clever one, but nothing more.

@Tigger

Quote:

Altivec is the SIMD and FPU instruction set for the PPC processor which first came about in the G4 processor. Several of the Powerstation modules can see significant improvements in using it instead of the normal processor for certain functions (Cinematte is about 4X faster for instance on the Mac version when using Altivec), the problem is that there arent enough G4 (or Altivec enabled) amigas for it to be cost effective to support the port, but if that changes, Kermit and I will probably revisit doing it in the future.

LOL, Chip was just pulling your leg, quote from mplayer svn log:
Quote:

Altivec test on AmigaOS4 patch by (Chip )

Last edited by COBRA on 13-Aug-2007 at 11:27 PM.

@COBRA

pssst! Don't "confuse" people!

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote: @Tigger Quote: So it was Hyperions goal and original schedule to deliver in 5 years? I mean thats basically what you are arguing here. Wrong again my friend, first of all they delivered what was asked for in the contract 3 years (or at most 3.5 years) after the contract was signed, not 5.

Actually as Bernd has pointed out several times, they actually havent delivered what they were contracted to do at this point.

Quote:

The point you keep missing is that what they had to do is not what they did the effort estimation for, and the changes were not Hyperion's fault, but the fault of the other parties (Eyetech/Escena for not delivering the proposed hardware, and AInc for not delivering adequate source code and documentation).

This is just getting silly, they got all the source code in December, blaming a multiyear delay on a 1 month delay in getting source code is silly, I cant believe you are back at it again. And if the goal changed too much for Hyperion, then they needed to renegotiate there contract, not go years late and blame everyone but themselves.
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@mlehto

Quote:

mlehto wrote: Anyway I didn't got point, why you needed bash Fleecy with inside information, what you had.

Wasnt bashing fleecy, was answering a question. Go back and read the original posts.

Quote:

How on earth you have time and energy for that continous ranting and bashing this and that.

Doesnt take much time, doesnt take much energy, I probably spend less then 1/2 an hour a day on this board. My moderator duties on VTFML and VTNT take alot more time, then the half dozen of so posts I make a day on here.

Quote:

I just mean that if you have all these skills, you supposelly don't need to use your time things like that. If you are at work with these skills, you should work. And usually good paid people have life allso.

Why are you posting on this thread mhelto? Why arent you working or "having a life" as you say instead of posting here. I'm married, I have a job, I work on the Efika port, I edit video professionally on the side, I write plugins for the Video Toaster, I scuba dive most weekends, my life is pretty full, what are you doing with yours?
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Chip

Quote:

pssst! Don't "confuse" people!

Yeah dont confuse chip, he remembers and forgets things on an hourly basis.
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 14-Aug-2007 at 01:29 AM.

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Chip

Quote:

Because OS4 is not just a simple emulator on another host enviroment.

Of course, neither is Amithlon.

For example, there is the seamless integration between x86 code and 68k code, allowing arbitrary jumping back and forth, and function pointers in 68k code which transparently point at x86 code. And the transitions are mindnumbingly fast. Oh, and of course there is an ELF loader to support it....

If you think retro-fitting such functionality onto an OS that wasn't designed for it, without the ability to modify the source itself, is "just a simple emulator", well, you are wrong. In fact, the multitasking of x86 tasks under Amithlon is probably considerably more complex than the multitasking of ExecSG, simply *because* it had to be retrofitted to an emulator, instead of being written from scratch.

Similarly, you'll find a lot of hardware support in Amithlon; Some of it is supported through code that is obviously similar to "real drivers", because it does drive the hardware directly. Other stuff is supported by calling out to the underlying linux kernel --- which, believe me, does not make support for any particular piece of hardware any easier, because one is now faced with translating between two often quite different abstracted views of the world.

Take for example IDE --- a "scsi.device"-like thing is not all that complicated; It reads and writes blocks, directly passes SCSI commands, and answers all sorts of questions about what it has found. Oh, and due to some remarkably stupid lack of foresight by whoever wrote the original, it also has to implement the whole partitioning/filesystem-loading song and dance, which really should be (a) abstracted away from any particular hardware driver, and (b) if not, then at least properly documented (getting mail from Olaf saying in effect "Ah, I see. You implemented it as documented. That was your first mistake..." is just plain wrong).
Reading and writing blocks from/to any particular IDE chipset is not that hard; You initialise the chipset, then you send it commands, and with PCI IDE, a lot of the earlier issues with those steps are no more. If you have the source code to, say, the A1200 version of scsi.device, you can reuse (either in ocde, or at least in observed logic if it's assembler, which I doubt) all the other parts --- everything that deals with the small differences between SCSI commands and ATAPI commands. Everything that maps SCSI commands to ATA commands for disks (which don't speak ATAPI). The whole rigid-disk-block stuff. The A1200 speaks ATA/ATAPI just fine, so all that really needs changing is the actual hardware access.

Reading anbd writing blocks from any of a huge list of supported-by-linux chipsets is not that hard, either, if you farm out the job to the linux kernel. It's not as easy as one might think, because at the time, linux IO-completion support was rather in its infancy, and not to be relied on --- which means that "sending a command to the disk" would get whatever linux thread made the kernel call stuck in the kernel for an undetermined time --- thus it obviously couldn't be the main emulator thread, and "sending a command" turns into "queueing a command in a request queue, signalling another thread, then going on our merry way until the other thread signals completion through an emulated interrupt, at which point we need to collect the replies and pass them back to the app/filesystem that originally called the device". But that part was relatively easily done.
The difficult bits were all about the translation between the Amiga-side SCSI representation, and the linux side almost-SCSI of linux's ATAPI SCSI emulation as well as the it-is-SCSI-but-some-of-it-is-hidden of its SCSI driver interface. And, as I said, to the rigid disk block madness. That's where a lot of time was spent, doing stuff that Stephane hopefully never had to do (and no disrespect here to Stephane, I am sure he had all sorts of other "interesting" behaviour to deal with).

Similarly with the 2D video drivers --- supporting one card, for which one has documentation, is not *that* hard. It's not easy, for sure, but there isn't that much in the P96 driver interface that does not match fairly directly to hardware capabilities. Instead, Amithlon again translated between an abstract linux layer and the abstract P96 layer, with lots of translating, and lots of kernel hacking exposing the raw hardware capabilities in a somewhat abstracted way. I saved on initialisation and documentation reading, but on the other hand, I paid dearly in terms of having to translate abstract-to-abstract rather than abstract-to-concrete. An Amithlon P96 driver spends a lot of effort on startup probing the linux driver to find out just what is or is not supported, and how well. Again, no disrespect to Bill, but I doubt that the 2D side of the supported Radeons has all that much variation; And for what variation there is, he apparently has documentation directly from ATI (not that such documentation is necessarily complete, or even correct --- but that's where the fun of low level hardware hacking comes from, right?)


So no, characterising Amithlon as "just a simple emulator" is about as correct as calling development of OS4 "just a simple recompile". Ben might think so, but the rest of us know better, in both cases :)

Last edited by umisef on 14-Aug-2007 at 03:15 AM.

@Lou

Quote:

They need tp stop expecting a return (ROI) at this point and just liquidate.

Yeah, but what you think they should do has no influence whatsoever on what they decide to do, or what legal position they are in. So who cares what you think AI's investors should do?

And hey, maybe they *do* want to close up shop, sell to the highest bidder, and get out of town. A good first step would be to close open issues, get contractual rights and obligations finalised, and create proper documentation about what exactly you are going to sell to that highest bidder.

You know, like making sure you get the things you paid for 4 years ago?


I suspect very few people believe AI has any plans for OS4 (or that there *is* any OS5), short of selling it to someone who actually cares. But for that to happen, they need to have OS4 first....

@Tigger

You seem so adamant that contract has to be followed to the letter..
What about Hyperion claiming that the hardware in the original contract
never was available to them so any timeline is mute? Would that be possible?
I'm of course talking about the Escena A1200 add on which the original
contract was for.

This of course has nothing to do with them later selling OS4..

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@Samwel

Quote:

Samwel wrote: @Tigger You seem so adamant that contract has to be followed to the letter.. What about Hyperion claiming that the hardware in the original contract never was available to them so any timeline is mute? Would that be possible? I'm of course talking about the Escena A1200 add on which the original contract was for.

It would definitely be possible, but the problem is that AI isnt responsible for the hardware, Eyetech is, and Eyetech hardware was available before Hyperions software, which is another issue with the hardware slowed us down line of questioning.

Quote:

This of course has nothing to do with them later selling OS4..

Which is the real problem, in 2003 they should have said we are selling the OS to Itec for 25K + XXXXX for additional issues out of our control (buying code from Olaf, etc), they didnt, and so now asking for more money or different terms isnt really possible.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

Actually as Bernd has pointed out several times, they actually havent delivered what they were contracted to do at this point.

Actually, in our long discussion about this we concluded that they have completed what they were contractually asked to do by December 2004. Bernd's arguments were things like JIT and WarpUp compatibility, which were not a requirement according to Annex I, BUT even if we consider them as such then they were included in update 3 half a year later. I'm not going to go through that silly discussion again, as it's completely pointless, when you simply keep ignoring the facts and repeat the same old arguments over and over, which have been shown to be invalid several times.

Quote:

This is just getting silly, they got all the source code in December, blaming a multiyear delay on a 1 month delay in getting source code is silly, I cant believe you are back at it again.

Tig, we're back at it again because you still don't get the point, Hyperion did not get the source code to the latest version of AmigaOS (which they were required to port), instead they had to contract dozens of developers who have those sources to develop them further and port them to PPC, thus they rely on those developers and the pace of development depends on the progress those developers make. Most of these developers do the development in their spare time, and there's nothing Hyperion can do to force them to finish things faster. They were forced to enter into these contracts because of Amiga Inc's failure to secure and deliver that source code to Hyperion. Therefore any argument against the progress of OS4 development can simply be directed towards Amiga Inc's failure to provide their part of the deal.

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @Chip ... Quote: [quote] or even what Altivec is? No, I don't. Tell me about that thing, my master.

Altivec is the SIMD and FPU instruction set for the PPC processor which first came about in the G4 processor. Several of the Powerstation modules can see significant improvements in using it instead of the normal processor for certain functions (Cinematte is about 4X faster for instance on the Mac version when using Altivec), the problem is that there arent enough G4 (or Altivec enabled) amigas for it to be cost effective to support the port, but if that changes, Kermit and I will probably revisit doing it in the future.
...

[/quote]

Sorry for being OT - but what's "Powerstation"?

Hmmmmmm - "which first came about in the G4 processor" - this is confusing me.

IIRC, the Permedia2 chip on my CybervisionPPC has Altivec support - are you now saying I can't make any use of it?


EDIT:
Tried to fix broken quotings - in vain...

Last edited by Dandy on 14-Aug-2007 at 09:12 AM.
Last edited by Dandy on 14-Aug-2007 at 09:11 AM.
Last edited by Dandy on 14-Aug-2007 at 09:10 AM.
Last edited by Dandy on 14-Aug-2007 at 09:08 AM.

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Dandy
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@COBRA

Quote:

we concluded

Uhm, you concluded. I agreed to disagree.

@Dandy

Quote:

IIRC, the Permedia2 chip on my CybervisionPPC has Altivec support

You don't recall correctly.