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      /  Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 22 Feb 2008)
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syrtran 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 4:52:31
#41 ]
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Joined: 27-Apr-2003
Posts: 835
From: Farther upstate than Upstate NY

@CodeSmith

There are actually three cases -

Amiga Inc (aka KMOS) v. Hyperion VOF (what this entire thread and two others are about)

Hyperion VOF v. Amino Development (see umisef's link above)

- both in Washington under the same judge, and -

Itec v. Hyperion VOF

- this is the NY case.

Last edited by syrtran on 20-Jan-2008 at 04:53 AM.

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damocles 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 5:28:08
#42 ]
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Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

Quote:
What I'd like to know is, does Bill McEwen really believe that he's going to sell enough copies of AA2 to cover all those legal fees?


If AI wins, Hyperion has to pay for AI's lawyers and court costs. Not going to be a pretty sight at all if that happens.

Dammy

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CodeSmith 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 8:24:09
#43 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@damocles

That's a pretty risky maneouver, especially when one considers how full of holes the original contracts were. On the other hand, it explains why the Friedens sued Hyperion. If Hyperion lose, they will be so deep in the red that it wraps around back to violet. The only way to pay will be to sell off all their assets, which will include the OS4 IP. By suing Hyperion, the Friedens are asserting the fact that they have not been paid for the parts of OS4 they wrote, and so those parts won't be put on the fire sale. It's still possible that they will try to strike a deal with Amiga Inc, but at least they will get full price and not pennies on the dollar, like they would have if it was sold off to pay Hyperion's debts.

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eniacfoa 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 8:38:23
#44 ]
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Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote:
@AmigaPhil

On the other hand, when they lose, they still owe all the developers, cant sell anything and oh yeah have to pay lawyers for both sides in 4 cases.
-Tig



thats a ten foot pole shoved you know where with no vaseline.

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eniacfoa 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 8:52:29
#45 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@AmigaPhil

Quote:

AmigaPhil wrote:
@Derfs

Quote:
tigger is not 'supporting Amiga Inc.' but more just saying what he feels is going to happen per the evidence, and what he feels it means (basically amiga have a stronger case).


I'm not so sure that Amiga Inc. has a stronger case (I think there are people behind who have some experiences in business ! - that is "how to make money, and how to avoid duties when thing goes wrong".) But I agreed that Tigger interventions are more than ranting or sponsoring (sometimes boring, however ).


im glad there are people here that know what time it is.
i wouldnt have gotten such a good run down of the case if it wasnt for tig and co debates.

I came back to the amiga world armed only with rhetoric from www.amiga.com haha, not good.


.

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damocles 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 11:44:38
#46 ]
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Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

Quote:
The only way to pay will be to sell off all their assets, which will include the OS4 IP.


They already sold OS4's work to Itec.

Dammy

Last edited by damocles on 20-Jan-2008 at 11:46 AM.

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ikir 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 13:06:50
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2002
Posts: 5647
From: Italy

@Jose

Quote:

Jose wrote:
AInc. has lied and used the Amiga community for too long. There's been too much effort from Amiga coders, probably partially fueled by their broken promises of a revival of the platform. Meanwhile they never had any intention of fulfilling their promises right from the start, infact they'd be more than happy if every developer had just switched to their "DE nowhere" crap. And meanwhile they're taking money from licence fees for Amiga Classic related sales and using the Amiga name presence on the internet the Amiga community has mande possible to make/get dubious investments from unknown people/companies.

So from an Amiga user's point of view they deserve to go bankrupt. To me they're just a bunch of cynic liars.


Eaxctly. You are 100% right about the situation.

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1Mouse 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 13:08:49
#48 ]
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Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 1356
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire

@damocles

But what exactly have Amiga Inc done for the Amiga community & platform.

Apart from the Amiga One (Eyetech licensed from Amiga Inc), I don't recolect them doing much in the past 10 years.

In my eyes all the work has been undertaken by others.

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1Mouse 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 13:10:46
#49 ]
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Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 1356
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire

@ikir

I agree totally.
Do Amiga Inc actually own anything outright?

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meet.mrnrg 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 13:50:30
#50 ]
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Joined: 5-Feb-2007
Posts: 1919
From: UK, AUS, US

@Everyone, Codesmith

Where is the link/s to the Friedens suing Hyperion? Any court docs?

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Tigger 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 13:56:38
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
@Spectre660

Nope - the one case will stay in Washington, the other one will be heard in New York. I'd be very surprised indeed to see a judge travelling across the country to hear such a small case.


There are four cases, I assumed that the question was whether the two in Washington court were joined as had been requested by Hyperion, they were not though they are under the same judge (which is bad for Hyperion though they requested it).

Quote:

The ITEC case was deliberately separated from the Amiga Inc case, and it's quite possible that the reason was to drag things out as long as possible. Don't expect anything close to a resolution this year.

First of all McEwen, Fleecy etc are not part of Itec so its not the same people, second of all the Itec case is very simple peice of case law. They signed a contract, they paid the money they want the product, the Amiga case is illegal use of trademarks and a bunch of other issues that are going to take awhile. As I've said for a long time, the Itec case (despite Hyperions efforts to slow it down) is going to be over long before the case(s) in Washington.

Quote:

It's clear to me that Amiga Inc is making full use of its financial backing to kill off Hyperion by firing lawsuit after lawsuit (otherwise they wouldn't have a problem joining the cases). What I'd like to know is, does Bill McEwen really believe that he's going to sell enough copies of AA2 to cover all those legal fees?


All the lawsuits after the first one (actually even the first one) are Hyperions fault, lets look at a partial timeline.

Nov 2006 - AIs lawyer sends a letter starting the 30 day countdown to cancellation the contract, and trying to set up mediation on the issue, per the 2001 contract they have 30 days to try and work it out.

Dec 2006 - Hyperion doesnt attempt mediation, contract is officially cancelled, Hyperion doesnt have license anymore, Hyperion then releases a 4.0 update saying they are done.

Jan 2007 - Hyperion whose contract has been cancelled starts talking about shipping OS 4.0 for the classics

Feb 2007 - March 2007 - Interesting OS 4 stuff with Acube, all from Hyperion who no longer has a contract, lots of negotiations here as well including the $2M offer to get everything.

April 26 2007 - Amiga files lawsuit against Hyperion. (Case 1 Filed by Amiga because Hyperion is violating there trademarks)

May 24, 2007 - The Friedens and AV file a suit against Hyperion and AI (several on here say at the urging of well known law clerk Ben Hermans and/or Hyperion) (Case 2 not filed by

May 31, 2007 - Hearing on preliminary injunction is heard, Hyperion now claims that they didnt agree for KMOS to get the OS, just Itec, so if anyone Itec should have the OS and that Itec hasnt paid them in full. Amiga tells the judge they would like to put the $25K in bond over the buyback so there is no issue about whether or not it had been paid on time.

June 20, 2007 - As the 6 months is about to run out, Itec sends the $25K check for the buyback to Hyperion before the 6 months from "its done" with a letter telling them to send the software.

June 26, 2007 - Hyperion runs to the court in Washington and asks to join Itec to the AI vs Hyperion case, this slows down the case significantly and its not until January 2008 that its decided Itec will not be part of the case. So if we are talking about drawing this out, Hyperion is drawing it out.

July 6, 2007 - Itec vs Hyperion is filed in court in New York (this is case #3, filed because Hyperion tried to join Itec to the case in Washington)

Oct 31, 2007 - Hyperion sues Amino in the Washington Court (before asking for mediation) (this is case #4).

Jan 2008 - Second case in Washington is moved to same judge as first, but not joined and delayed until mediation is carried out, Itec is succesful in keeping themselves from being part of the AI vs Hyperion case. Judge says that 2003 contract does not require Itec to carry out duties of the 2001 contract, which is devastating to most of Hyperions case about transfers.

So I'm sorry, but it seems to me that Hyperion is the one making this take much longer then it should as part of what I've nicknamed "Operation Scorched Earth"
-Tig


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Tigger 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 14:03:54
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@meet.mrnrg

Quote:

meet.mrnrg wrote:
@Everyone, Codesmith

Where is the link/s to the Friedens suing Hyperion? Any court docs?



Document 82 has AIs comments about it, someone on the Hyperion side has commented about it before (or perhaps at the oral hearin) , Exhibit W of document 82 has the court documents we've seen so far, this case was filed before the Itec case, so technically its the second case.
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 20-Jan-2008 at 02:41 PM.

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Tigger 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 14:06:47
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@1Mouse

Quote:

1Mouse wrote:
@ikir

I agree totally.
Do Amiga Inc actually own anything outright?


All the trademarks, all the 3.x IP, portions of the 4.x IP that is based on use of there 3.x IP, if you beleive the buyout has occurred all the 4.x IP that used to be owned by Hyperion. Plus the AA and AA2 stuff. Is that what you were asking for or is this a more subtle question I didnt understand?
-Tig

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damocles 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 14:16:51
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@1Mouse

Quote:
But what exactly have Amiga Inc done for the Amiga community & platform.

Apart from the Amiga One (Eyetech licensed from Amiga Inc), I don't recolect them doing much in the past 10 years.


Subcontracted out 3.9, subcontracted out OS4 and associated hardware. Eyetech proved to be greedy morons and Hyperion proved to be unable to fullfill the contract of delivering OS4 as contracted within a reasonable time. Hell, Tigger is taking what, seven months to do a AROS port to EFIKA, and he's only doing it by himself and part time at that. WTF was Hyperion doing all those years? Then there was DEad and now Son Of DEad cuz AOS as we know it was dead, as per Sheep Lord.

After that threesome, none of the three came out of it clean.

Dammy

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1Mouse 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 14:30:30
#55 ]
Super Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2005
Posts: 1356
From: Bradford, West Yorkshire

@Tigger

It was not meant as a subtle question, I just wanted it summerised so I could know better if they has actually created anything themselves.

I do not count AA or AA2 as anthing of interest for the Amiga community.

Personally I would count a piece of up to date hardware (ACube) and an OS (Hyperion) as an achievement.

Last edited by 1Mouse on 20-Jan-2008 at 02:31 PM.

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Tigger 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 15:24:33
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@1Mouse

Quote:

1Mouse wrote:

Personally I would count a piece of up to date hardware (ACube) and an OS (Hyperion) as an achievement.


If we are counting Acubes board as an achievement we need to count, Apples MacMini, the Peg2 and Efika as even bigger achievements, none of which legally run OS4 as of today. As for Hyperion. I really would love for people to stop thinking Hyperion did a good job, because they/he/Evert didnt. The OS is very very late, the developers arent paid, the OS is tied up in 4 lawsuits and Hyperions contract has been cancelled. Noone at Hyperion wrote a line of code, so the none code issues is what we should credit Hyperion with and the non-code issues have not been an achievment in my book.
-Tig

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Spectre660 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 16:56:39
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Jun-2005
Posts: 3918
From: Unknown

@Tigger

Quote:
Judge says that 2003 contract does not require Itec to carry out duties of the 2001 contract, which is devastating to most of Hyperions case about transfers.


reading pdf no 96 page 5 lines 5-26 seems to say something quite different.

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AmigaPhil 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 18:55:12
#58 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2005
Posts: 563
From: Earth (Belgium)

@damocles

Quote:
I do not go around stating that I don't have an interest yet show bias immediate afterwards either.


Unlike some developers, I am not owed anything from Amiga Inc. or from Hyperion. I do not owe them anything either. I have no shares or any other direct benefits from any company's wealth.
That's what I meant when I wrote "I have no personnal interests in ...".

That said, and as I wrote, while I'm waiting to replace my aging A4000 with a new OS4 system, I have a better hope in Hyperion doing well. So yes, I have a bias.

[edit: typos, sorry ]

Last edited by AmigaPhil on 21-Jan-2008 at 08:32 PM.
Last edited by AmigaPhil on 20-Jan-2008 at 06:56 PM.

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AmigaPhil 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 19:16:40
#59 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2005
Posts: 563
From: Earth (Belgium)

@Tigger

Quote:
First of all, Hyperion is just a single person, and second of all I dont think Hyperion has basically anything to do with OS 4. They didnt write any of it, they didnt design it, they didnt manage the effort well, they got paid by both Eyetech and AI, they owe virtually all of the developers money. The lump somes they owe the developers within 30 or 60 days of the OS being done exceed all the money they will get from selling to the classic systems. And they still will owe 100s of 1000s of dollars to the developers.


What we know is that Hyperion is a small company; probably with a low financial ground.
On the other side, we have people (lets say in Pentti Kouri's sphere) who sometime say: "We have only 100$ left on our bank account", sometime announce they are ready to invest millions in a event exhibit hall (all while still owning people money too).
How much money they have does not really matter at this point. I don't think that any of them is ready to "buy" an agreement (ala Microsoft) to avoid a (damaging) law suit. (After the court rule, that will be another story.)

What might put more weight on the Amiga Inc. side is that they can afford to pay more (7?) lawyers than Hyperion. How that will affect the suit issue... we'll see. (So far, they are not doing much better than the single lawyer in Hyperion's side, IMHO.)

Last edited by AmigaPhil on 20-Jan-2008 at 08:02 PM.

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umisef 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 17 Jan 2008)
Posted on 20-Jan-2008 23:21:58
#60 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Spectre660

Quote:
reading pdf no 96 page 5 lines 5-26 seems to say something quite different.


Well, it *does* say quite clearly that Itec is not bound by the jurisdiction provision. Seeing as that was part of the 2001 contract, the judge seems to believe that the 2001 contract applies to Itec at best partially, but possibly not at all.

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