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      /  Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 22 Feb 2008)
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Dandy 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 13:14:32
#801 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@samface

...
Nothing is stopping KMOS from developing and releasing a successor to OS4.
Nothing.



Except of their incompetence, perhaps?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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umisef 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 13:24:40
#802 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Lou

Quote:
Also, I don't have the contract details,


Then get them. Justia has the whole contract. Docket 26, exhibit 4. Come back when you know what you are talking about, because it would stop you from asking questions like

Quote:
what makes you think selling work derivative of 3.1 was exclusively sold to Hyperion?

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umisef 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 13:26:06
#803 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Lou

Quote:
Hyperion have said that all source code lies with developers


No, they have not said such a thing, which would be completely suicidal.

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umisef 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 13:28:18
#804 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Lou

Quote:
Interstingly enough, we have had developers on this board who stated they had OS4 running on a CS prior to the A1 release.


Interestinggly enough, we have also had the lead developer state, on this board, "When it's done" in reference to the Classic version, in 2007.

Once again, I suggest that when the lead developer states publicly that something is not done, then it is reasonable for Amiga to believe that it is not completed.

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umisef 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 13:32:27
#805 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Lou

Quote:
Olaf sold derivative work to Hyperion.


Olaf did no such thing. Olaf sold *his* part of the co-owned work to Hyperion, which makes the work now co-owned by Hyperion and Amiga.

Which, BTW, is at least one example of source code which Hyperion *has* secured, and which they *are* thus obliged to hand over to KMOS (who then becomes the sole owner of said compound thing).

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umisef 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 13:36:09
#806 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Lou

Quote:
Nothing is stopping KMOS from developing and releasing a successor to OS4.


Maybe, however, they don't *want* to do it the hard way? Reinventing the wheel gets real old real fast.... Presumably that's also the reason why Hyperion wanted Olaf's sources, rather than Amiga's.

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umisef 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 13:37:34
#807 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1714
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Dandy

Quote:
Except of their incompetence, perhaps?


I find it funny that the very people who think Hyperion have done a stellar job are now suggesting that redoing the job, and exceeding it, should be trivially possible in less than 10% of the time. Says a lot about what you *really* think...

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Seer 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 13:40:20
#808 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@Lou

No, I state my opion, proclaim it useless, just as yours is. I don't ask to be replied to.

Then don't post and stay out of this thread...

You've said what you wanted to say, you don't want people replying to you yet you keep on posting and replying yourself.

And yes, that is a moderator request. Thanks

Last edited by Seer on 04-Mar-2008 at 01:44 PM.
Last edited by Seer on 04-Mar-2008 at 01:43 PM.

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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Dandy 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 13:56:23
#809 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote:
@Dandy

Quote:


Except of their incompetence, perhaps?



I find it funny that the very people who think Hyperion have done a stellar job...



Can you please point me to where I claimed so?
I can't remember having claimed they did "a stellar job" - all I recall having said was along the lines that they finally delivered - in contrary to AInc who just announced, but never delivered...

Quote:

umisef wrote:

...are now suggesting that redoing the job, and exceeding it, should be trivially possible in less than 10% of the time.



Where did I suggest that?

Quote:

umisef wrote:

Says a lot about what you *really* think...



The way you twist things and put words in my mouth that I didn't say (or write) also tells a lot about you.

It's just that I don't have to sell my products to anyone here to earn my money...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
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He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
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samface 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 14:12:17
#810 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@samface

Quote:

samface wrote:
@Lou

Your point is moot for the simple reason that the payment for invoking the buy back clause, wether it may be in part or in full, is not an amount reflecting the worth of the source code to begin with. The AmigaOS4 source code is no doubt a derivative work of the original AmigaOS source codes for which Hyperion only has a license to develop and market, not own. So in every meaning of the word, Amiga Inc. already owns the AmigaOS4 source code. It's just a matter about who gets to continue developing and marketing it rather than who gets to own it and for THAT, Amiga Inc. has payed Hyperion well above $25,000.


They get the source code to which Hyperion "is abled to secure" which considering sales around 2000 units and only $24,750 amounts to almost nothing with regards to source code. Go re-read the contract.


I've read it many times and I cannot find any part where it says Amiga Inc. would have to pay Hyperion for securing source code. Again, the $25,000 is not a payment for source code, it's merely a fee for triggering the buyback clause in the contract, nothing else.

Quote:

Quote:

If there is anything preventing the mechanic from doing the job for the amount we agreed upon, he should notify me and ask me if it's OK first. He has obsolutely no right what so ever to charge me for jobs performed outside the scope of the agreement without my prior given consent, PERIOD. No, I don't care what frikkin' argument you're going to come up with next, PERIOD. There is nothing further to discuss.

Correct, you can go pay another mechanic for the extra work required. However, the extra work will be required if you ever hope to get your tires changed and balanced.


Exactly. Hyperion took away Amiga Inc.'s right to choose if they wanted Hyperion to do this job or not, hence why they are not obligated to pay for it. End of discussion.

Quote:

Quote:

So where did you get the idea of AmigaOS4.5 from then? Why did you not suggest, let's say, 4.1? C'mon, you remember their announced plans of going from 4-0->4.2->4-5 and then to 5.0 just as well as I do. You just skipped AmigaOS4.2 because you know Hyperion put just about everything in what was planned for 4.2 in 4.0.

I just told you I made it up. As I've stated before: you have a serious reading comprehension problem. Conversations with you are difficult to say the least and ours isn't the only one where I've seen you misunderstand things and that's perhaps why some may say you are a nitpicker...


I read what you said perfectly and no, I don't believe that it was just a coincidence that your made up version number for a successor to AmigaOS4 was exactly the same as what's been publicly announced. You on the other hand seem to have a problem of following a sensible line of thought and staying with the issue at hand. My personal characteristics such as wether I'm a nitpicker or not has nothing to do with anything.

Quote:
Quote:

I have no idea what kind of point you in your head think you are making here but I'm sure it's just as full of fallacies as all of your other arguments.

That much I can plainly see - that you don't understand some important things people write. Look up the expression "what's good for the goose is good for the gander".
You expect Hyperion to develop 4.0 in a few months without proper source code to 3.5, 3.9 + Boing Bags.


No, that was Hyperion's promise to Amiga Inc. in the contract, not what I would expect.

Look, I suspect Amiga Inc. didn't say much about the missed deadline during these years exactly because of these circumstances, but when Hyperion start whining about Amiga Inc. being late to pay %1 of the $25,000, they are bound to be countered with these kind of arguments. Besides, the missing sources for the improvements from AmigaOS3.1 to AmigaOS3.9 doesn't exactly account for a 6 year delay.

Quote:
You state that because 4.0 exists, the sources to earlier versions are not required.


Nope. I said that AmigaOS4's existence proves that Hyperion obviously had access to the source codes that was necessary for completing AmigaOS4.

Quote:
You gave some flawed logic theory something like: if C exists without B so A didn't need B after all.


Now you're just displaying YOUR flawed reading comprehension. The logic was that if A was completed without B, B was obviously not necessary for completing A. Simple, sound and bullet proof logic. I dare you to prove me wrong.

Quote:
Yet you fail to realize that if OS4 exists, then KMOS can make it's successor without the source to OS4 just as Hyperion made a successor OS to 3.X without sources to 3.5/3.9 etc... So apply your own logic to KMOS for releasing a successor to OS 4.


I never contested that KMOS couldn't make the same mistake as Hyperion and not hold the ones responsible of supplying source code liable, but why should they? In fact, it wouldn't be fair to Hyperion if they would just like Hyperion accumulate costs over a 6 year time period for things far beyond the scope of what's been agreed to and then try to charge Hyperion for it. It's better for all parties involved, especially Hyperion, if they only pay each other for what they've agreed to pay for in the contract and let any issues related to *when* things should have been delivered/payed be evened out.

Quote:

Quote:

Because Hyperion has failed to secure certain parts of the AmigaOS4 sources from their contractors, allowing their contractors to grab Amiga Inc.'s IP. Like I said, there is no question as to wether the AmigaOS4 is a derivative work based on the original AmigaOS source code or not. Given a scenario of where Hyperion's license would be terminated and their contractors refuse to share the work they've made on AmigaOS4, those sources would be rendered useless for all practical purposes since making any kind of use of it would require Amiga Inc.'s permission.

No, it's not a question. However, Olaf sold derivative work to Hyperion. Why isn't KMOS suing Olaf? At the very least, you would think KMOS could be consistent.


Well, the thing is with intellectual property is that anything goes for as long as the intellectual property owner agrees to it. The incentive to go after Olaf is obviously not there. Why would they have to consistently prevent anyone and everyone from making use of their intellectual property?

Quote:
Quote:

Yet here you are, arguing vividly like you actually could change the outcome. Well, what do you know...

No, I state my opion, proclaim it useless, just as yours is. I don't ask to be replied to. Infact, please don't. I'm, for the most part, speaking when spoken to. If we can all agreed that our opionions don't matter , then just don't reply. You won't change mine, nor will I change yours. Infact, you told me about 2 pages ago that you wouldn't reply to me anymore, yet you continue to. Now I see how much your word is worth...


1. There are opinions, there are logic and there are facts. The latter two is not something you can dismiss as just opinions. I never argued with your opinions because that I'd agree that it would be rather pointless.

2. If you don't want people to challange your opinions, logic and claims, don't state them in a public forum. As postings in here, they are bound to be challanged with other people's opinions, logic and claims.

3. The statement "If we can all agreed that our opionions don't matter, then just don't reply" made as a part of yet another reply just tells me that the one stating it has a problem accepting that our opinions don't matter.

4. I know I promised to stop replying to you but your twisted logic and fallacies is really hard to not object to. I guess that makes me an easy target for trolls but atleast I have the self-awareness to admit it. Go ahead and condemn me for it as much as you want, it won't make any of your fallacies and false logic any less so.

Last edited by samface on 04-Mar-2008 at 02:16 PM.

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Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

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Plaz 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 14:13:47
#811 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@Tigger

Quote:
Once Evert (aka Hyperion) is out of the way, the developers can make deals for the 4.0 code


Again I don't see a benefit. KMOS/AI is free to make any OS the want right now. Why aren't they? Does anyone beleive that even if KMOS wins this case Hyperion will be able to hand over a complete and useful collection of OS4 code? I don't, given the docs I've read and the information in these threads.

Ok let's say KMOS wins. Then what do they have? Clear legal rights, bits and peices of OS4 and maybe a working version of 3.1. Again that leave us were we were over 7-8 years ago. Do you think that if Hyperion loses all of the OS4 devs will then be willing to deal with KMOS/AI directly? Seems iffy to me.

And were you agreeing that this may just be an IP cleanup for a sale to a new owner?

Plaz

Last edited by Plaz on 04-Mar-2008 at 02:21 PM.

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wolfe 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 14:17:58
#812 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 1283
From: Under The Moon - Howling in the Blue Grass

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:
@wolfe

Quote:

wolfe wrote:
@Lou

If AI wins they will not get the developer's source code. Hyperion will loose what code they have (if any), any other related materials and the contracts with the developers. The developers will get paid if AI wants the code.

No court is going to force a turn over of code that hasn't been paid for . . .

If that's the case then why did they ask for source code in their deposition?
Hyperion have said that all source code lies with developers or until they sell enough copies of OS4 to cover their costs and pay developers for their source.

So it seems to me that KMOS is indeed after the developer's source code and doesn't feel the need to pay more than $25,000 no matter the cost to Hyperion.


Of course they asked for the source code. But the only source code they will get is the source code belonging to Hyperion (if any), and copies of the contracts with those who hold the other portions of the source code for the OS. As far as the $25,000 is concerned, thats all they feel they have to pay Hyperion for Hyperion's portion of this situation in accordance with the contract.

They (AI in all guises) knew as stated in the contract that portions of the OS would be sub-contracted out. Hyperion can not turn over code they do not have or own. It will be up to Ai and the sub-contractor's to work the rest out in accordance with the contracts they signed with Hyperion. Those contracts would then be owned by AI. New ones could also be negotiated . . .

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Lou 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 14:27:57
#813 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Seer

Quote:

Seer wrote:
@Lou

No, I state my opion, proclaim it useless, just as yours is. I don't ask to be replied to.

Then don't post and stay out of this thread...

You've said what you wanted to say, you don't want people replying to you yet you keep on posting and replying yourself.

And yes, that is a moderator request. Thanks

And as of now I'll oblige it, especially since this thread is giving me a migraine.

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Tigger 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 14:39:26
#814 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote:
@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote:
@Dandy

[quote]
Dandy wrote:

Hmmmm - I see the situation as follows:
AInc once ordered Olaf to rework the 3.1 sources. Olaf did as assigned and never got paid - I take he's still waiting for this money.



Not true at all. Olaf while working for AT had access to 3.1, as an exercise he worked on cleaning up that code and reducing the number of compilers needed, that effort took about 750 hours, Olaf has been wanting someone to pay him to use that code since the AT days. AInc never had Olaf do the work or promised to pay him for the work.



I'm afraid that this time you are the one that is leaving factual grounds:

[/quote]

I'm sorry Dandy, you are wrong here. Look at what you said above AInc ordered Olaf to rework the 3.1 sources. That didnt happen, Olaf reworked the sources during the AT days, look at his email with Fleecy and his email with McEwen (where he tells us about his payment schedule), plus Olafs contract with Hyperion, it says he did the work while working at Amiga Technologies, see you arent right on this. As for promising to pay him, read what Fleecy actually says about that, he told Schmidt they should buy Olafs work, thats not a contractual obligation to do it, and its surely not getting him to do the work, because the work was done before Gateway bought Amiga.


Quote:

Quote:

Tigger wrote:

As far as the court is concerned, unless it shows up it doesnt exist and so far all we have is Olafs contract and Olafs email that says he wasnt paid anything until 2006 and then only 2500 Euros, he said he would have been better off working at McDonalds then working on OS 4 as it would have paid more that surely would suggest there isnt a contract that says its ok for them to pay him late.



When was Olaf working on OS 4.0 - was he an OS 4 Developer?
Must have missed that...


Go read Annex I and Annex II of the 2001 contract, Olaf is listed all through it.


Quote:

Tigger wrote:

I never said Olaf or the Friedens were speculating...



You said we were speculating about whether the developers were happy, we have emails from 2006 which show that they were owed lots of money and not really happing about it, Olaf said he would have been better off flipping burgers then working on OS4, so I dont think its speculating that Olaf was not happy with the situation.

Quote:

Quote:

Tigger wrote:
or that the Friedens and AV are suing Hyperion and AI.


I don't know what/who "AV" (Audio-Video?) is, but the Friedens are asking for a legally binding declaration on who currently owns their part of the work on OS 4.0 - they, Hyperion or AInc, according to "Rogue" a few posts ago.



AV is the 3rd developer suing along with the Brothers Frieden. As for what Rogue said, I cant take seriously anyone who is suing his employer to maintain rights on there software and then tell us its business as usual. How often have you sued you employer as part of business as usual?
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 04-Mar-2008 at 03:10 PM.

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Tigger 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 14:59:38
#815 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:

Actually, I haven't seen much of the NY ITEC case and this thread concerns KMOS yet you keep bringing that one up. Also, where did DC come from? I thought it was in Washington STATE...

Once Itec wins, lots of Hyperions case is useless. Itec will transfer the OS to KMOS and KMOS aka AI will be the owner, thats alot of the counterarguements not being useful once a court has decided that AI is the owner of the OS- . Surely you've read the latest court documents, where Hyperion is suing AI over the new Trademarks in Washington DC, since that what we've been talking about for the last few pages. Once that case is over, then all the trademark portions of the case get thrown out as well in the Washington STATE case.

Quote:

Now per what you quoted, once again, the WA judge declare ITEC as not necessary to the case at hand, that is what the judge decided. So your defenses using points to be made in the ITEC case for this thread are useless. This was another attempt at you see-sawing cases to make a point.


No, the judge said the venue and jurisdictional provisions of the 2001 contract didnt apply to Itec because they signed the 2003 agreement. Thats huge for Itec and frankly for KMOS, and when Itec wins in New York that win will propogate into the reduction of counterclaims by Hyperion, because Itec and through them KMOS will be the owner of OS 4, which hurts Hyperions case.
-Tig

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Tigger 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 15:01:05
#816 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote:

As for the party, having to pay for a flight from Massachussets to Texas would be a pain, so it would be a monetary loss for me. ;)


Why on earth are you going to Texas?
-Tig

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number6 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 15:11:17
#817 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@Tigger

Just a suggestion.
You, and a few others, have really introduced what I believe to be a 2nd track of speculation beyond what you feel the outcome of the legal proceedings might be.
That other track really speaks to what you believe are the possibilities that arise from each individual's perceived outcome. I think that is an interesting subject in itself. It might speak more to "hope for the future", which is something most readers would likely consider more interesting and less disheartening.
Granted, that -too- would be a thread of speculation, but I think it's an entirely different subject that looks further into the future. That line of thinking tends to get lost in a thread this long.
Let's face it. Part of the reason you get more denials of your views, is that people don't see how any of your portrait of the future benefits them. Maybe a few specifics on that might help.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 04-Mar-2008 at 03:14 PM.
Last edited by number6 on 04-Mar-2008 at 03:12 PM.

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jorkany 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 15:27:32
#818 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-May-2005
Posts: 920
From: Space Coast

@Tigger
Quote:
Why on earth are you going to Texas?

Cocoa? If so pst me for invite, lol

_________________
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Kronos 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 15:28:46
#819 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@Lou

The pre-releases (atleast the early ones) didn't even come close in matching what was outlined in the contract, therefore they can't be "the release" starting the deadlines.

Hyperion decided NOT to call them (proper) releases, and NOT to inform AInc that they thought the deadline has started, either because they didn't consider it ready, or because they didn't want fullfill other obligations tied to OS4 being "released".

The whole "OS4 was released in 2004" is just a rather flimpsy atempt at rewriting history, and it's gonna need more then one stupid judge to make it work.

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jorkany 
Re: Amiga Inc v. Hyperion VOF (update 31 Jan 2008)
Posted on 4-Mar-2008 15:47:14
#820 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-May-2005
Posts: 920
From: Space Coast

@Plaz
Quote:
Again I don't see a benefit. KMOS/AI is free to make any OS the want right now. Why aren't they?
They did, AA2. My opinion is that AInc. sees OS4 as just a contractual loose end that needs tying up, they don't see any value in OS4 itself, I doubt they ever did.

Quote:
Does anyone beleive that even if KMOS wins this case Hyperion will be able to hand over a complete and useful collection of OS4 code? I don't, given the docs I've read and the information in these threads.
With you 100% on this. Hyperion has mismanaged their way into a huge mess. One is left to wonder if this is a legacy from when Ben was running the show, or if Evert is equally responsible.

Quote:
Ok let's say KMOS wins. Then what do they have? Clear legal rights, bits and peices of OS4 and maybe a working version of 3.1. Again that leave us were we were over 7-8 years ago.
What difference does it make who wins at this point? I've been saying for some time now that OS4 is a dead-end alley, it doesn't matter if it's AI Street or Hyperion Blvd. You don't even need to be a legal jock to see that, just look at any current calendar.

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Here for the whimpering end

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