@samface

Quote:

Well, if Hyperion can sue Amino, Amino are apparently still liable for their actions. So, it still doesn't make sense to go after KMOS.

So we should dislike Amino president Bill McEwen for never paying any money on open judgements from Amiga IP sale profits but support Amiga president Bill McEwen? See there is a problem there when you interview at Digital Experience and claim to be the Amiga of 1999 and in recent press releases to be the Amiga of 2000 (neither KMOS, both Amino) and then play off like you have nothing to do with Amino and cry about supposed back pay for you from Amino with little sympathy for Bolton, your former employee when being interviewed by the Seattle Times last year. If Bill McEwen can't properly delineate where one company ends and the other begins why should we have to become scholars on the subject when we can't even because they are both private corps? We have nothing to go on that I have seen to think there was much of any difference between the two.

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@fairlanefastback

Again, you're making it personal and about Bill McEwen instead of the companies. Bill McEwen was probably not even in charge of salaries at neither of the companies, nor was he likely to be the one to decide which creditor was going to get what when Amino was selling off their assets. Drop the conspiracy theories and personal persecution, please.

I'm not defending anything or anyone, I'm just trying to get some sanity into the debate and point out an obvious case of "barking up the wrong tree".

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I have found the OS4 Lawsuit quite educational and unfortunately useful.

Sorry in advance for the rant but I find myself in the same situation.

All employees were laid off last Friday, by a start-up company we were working for, in a similar situation to Hyperion in regard to the software development contract. No last month's salary, no one month's notice and no vacation pay, nothing. The company has yet to declare insolvency to my knowledge. I think there's an Australian government program called GEERS to recoup lost income, and I am investigating. Perhaps such a thing exists in other countries, and if it exists in the US perhaps Bolten Peck could have been paid somehow.

I was employed to develop a revolutionary business application, which was in beta testing, for another company, whom I have developed a good relationship with. As I correctly predicted, now both companies are involved in what will likely be an IP battle, and the investors are trying to mediate between the parties. The other company has offerred me employment but the legality of such a thing is up in the air for them, due to their software development agreement, and may find them in breach of contract and jeapardise their IP.

It is a stupid situation to be in, because the whole thing was instigated by the freaking CEO of the company I worked for, suddenly and unilaterally raising his salary by 300%. Greedy ba$tard. All for a power grab which looks set to push their development schedule back a year if it ever makes it to market, due the employees scrambling for alternative employment. The employees are the only people who know anything about the code, technology or business processes, and have an emotional investment in the product.

Anyway, isn't a director of a company directly liable for the debt of that company, regardless of insolvency? How can one be allowed to be a CEO(like say McEwen) or director with such a blight against their name?

Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 06-Feb-2008 at 05:21 AM.

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@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @fairlanefastback Again, you're making it personal and about Bill McEwen instead of the companies. Bill McEwen was probably not even in charge of salaries at neither of the companies, nor was he likely to be the one to decide which creditor was going to get what when Amino was selling off their assets. Drop the conspiracy theories and personal persecution, please. I'm not defending anything or anyone, I'm just trying to get some sanity into the debate and point out an obvious case of "barking up the wrong tree".

Ok so when the Seattle Times goes to Amiga HQ in WA and finds Bill there with one other co-worker and nothing much else but boxes we should make the same assumptions you want to make that he is not in charge of much. Lets not forget the similar experience Cecilia had when she went to Amiga HQ in NY and found out it appeard to be a only a maildrop for their accountant. Also they admit London HQ is really just a consultant's home (Fleecy - another familar name). Let alone what Hyperion, a former Amiga partner has alleged. Let alone Bill's title as President and his work with the city of Kent on a multimillion dollar deal. Why should we lean towards your conjecture that comes from thin air? And even if there are other decision makers beyond he and Kouri (the other familiar name), should we be happy with them for keeping Bill on and letting him spout stuff like "much better than OS X from Apple" and not fulfilling the moral obligation Gary Hare spoke of for coupon refunds even with the company change over?

This board never stopped anyone from criticizing Bill Gates for his leadership of MS. Why do you have a problem with the same for Bill M?

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@fairlanefastback

Bad arguments. The act of not paying salaries would have to be done during the time when they actually had employees, now wouldn't it? I'm guessing they had atleast 10-15 employees in their offices in snowqualmie, maybe more, where it's not unlikely they had atleast one person employed as clerk/secretary/whatever who took care of the administrative tasks such as paying salaries. This person in return probably worked under some kind of chief of staff.

Again, you don't hold an individual personally responsible for the debts of a company. Atleast not unless you can show that the person in question did an obvious and illegal misconduct to cause the debt. AFAIK, they simply ran out of cash to pay, which is not neccessarily a consequence of a misconduct.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Quote: Because the people behind KMOS are not the people behind Amino. Please list the difference in ownership between the two.

At the time of the buyout.

Amino
William McEwan. Founder and CEO

KMOS
Garry Hare CEO

Now

KMOS/Amiga Inc
Pentti Kouri. Chairman of the board.
William McEwan. Acting president.


Simple enough for you? Pentti may have had investor interests in Amino, but he had no direct control over the company or Bill. Now he does. Thats a big change.

Quote:

Hyperion is certainly contending otherwise in court and I have never seen anyone show a list that shows there was actually different ownership.

Bill OWNED Amino.
Kouri OWNS Amiga Inc


Just curious. Have you ever run a company and had to deal with investors? Or have you had your company bought from under you and been forced to work under somebody else? (Actually, Bill doesn't even have that. Only his inventory was bought).

Well thats where both Bill and I have something in common. It is, for all purposes of my argument a new company. Rules are changed. Chains of command are changed. Goals are changed. Priorities are changed. EVERYTHING is changed.

Bill is now an employee. As such, he can be sacked or (as has happened with Gary Hare moving on) be moved around from job to job. He was subservant to Gary and Kouri, now he's subservant to Kouri (and perhaps some new employee in the future).

Before he was the boss. While he had to please his investor, he didn't have to answer to him.

Incidently, this is the reason why I have some degree of confidence in Amiga Inc now. As long as Bill isn't leader of the pack anymore, I think we may have a chance.

Quote:

Quote: McBill may or may not warrent the comments made about him on this thread, but he is an employee of KMOS now, not the owner. And yet he is buying personal stakes in OS4 in the Hyperion deal with his own money as partial payment for the $25,000 buy-in/buy-out, whatever it might be. (Assuming he paid it, point is he was expected to by Kouri). And he is President of the corporation. It would appear he has an ownership stake since he is expected to fork over his own cash towards business deals for the company.

As said above, he is NOT the President, he is Acting President.
Who is the leader of the USA? Bush or Cheney?

Quote:

Quote: I would consider this a shell game in the sense that buying the IP cheaply rather than just buying the company outright to avoid debts does indicate a less than perfect solution for those owed money, "a less than perfect solution for those owed money". Getting paid NADA, NOTHING, ZIPPO, ZERO, jeez man., what a ridiculous apologist for evil you are. Now you are even talking like Bill. For shame man, for shame.

What are yoiu talking about?

Do you think he would have got paid if Amiga went under compleletly? I'm not apologising for anything. I'm stating facts about business practices that occur daily.

Did I say anywhere that I thought they were good business practices? In fact, my use of the words "shell game" would suggest exactly the opposite.


Quote:

Quote: If anyone bears a moral debt, it is Bill McEwan for not ensuring Amino made enough money made from the sale of Amiga IP to cover their debts, but if he had I'm quite sure nobody would have bought Amigas IP and not only would Bolton still not have been paid, the Amiga would have died complelely. So Amiga's IP was not even sold for the salary of one man for part of a year? Remember no one got anything, not a thin dime as far as we know. Not even a bloody partial payment on a debt. Yes the ip is worth dirt now, but in 2003 it got not even enough to send a penny to Mr. Peck? Please.

Whats your problem here? I said Bill was at fault for this. You are arguing my argument for me.

I don't believe any investor would have been interested in paying enough to cover Aminos debts though considering how far away from having a product they were and given the market at the time, so I expect Bill was given very little choice in this.

If you think you could have found an investor willing to pay, then please become a fundraiser. You obviously have a fantastic gift if you think you could have done better.



Anyway, I am going to remove myself from this thread as its just the same old thread being recycled for the billionth time about the same tired old subjects which came about because of a trollish poll about something that would never happen even in a perfect world of flowery people who had the sun coming out of their backsides.

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@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: @fairlanefastback ... They (KMOS/Amiga Inc) have done nothing illegal. ...

..., but lots of immoral.

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@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: ... I'm quite sure nobody would have bought Amigas IP and not only would Bolton still not have been paid, the Amiga would have died complelely. ...

I would prefer the name "Amiga" to die dignified instead being abused for scams for more than eight years.

Last edited by Dandy on 06-Feb-2008 at 02:11 PM.
Last edited by Dandy on 06-Feb-2008 at 02:11 PM.

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@Derfs

Quote:

Derfs wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: "a less than perfect solution for those owed money". Getting paid NADA, NOTHING, ZIPPO, ZERO, jeez man., what a ridiculous apologist for evil you are. Now you are even talking like Bill. For shame man, for shame. that is just terrible! do you realise where you are or what you are commenting on ?? this isnt genocide! and what a scandalous way to speak to someone, appaling! taking your frustration out with your many 'threads of a similar topic' and now general aw.net posters? shocking.

Sombody articulating the truth with gentle words already gives you such shocks?

Your reaction reminds me of an mimosa.
Perhaps you would be better off in a cloister than in the real world?

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@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @fairlanefastback Again, you're making it personal and about Bill McEwen instead of the companies. Bill McEwen was probably not even in charge of salaries at neither of the companies, nor was he likely to be the one to decide which creditor was going to get what when Amino was selling off their assets. Drop the conspiracy theories and personal persecution, please. I'm not defending anything or anyone, I'm just trying to get some sanity into the debate and point out an obvious case of "barking up the wrong tree".

I usually avoid to get involved in these discussions but to train my english skills. Since not having enough information of what's going on behind the courtains and the "acting power" to change anything this hole blabla is pointless IMHO. (Although I like reading it, it's pretty entertaining sometimes so keep going :-d)

but regarding this post of yours, well bottom line, I understand your statemt as:
You can be the CEO of a company but are not liable for your company's financial situation?
I will found a company and put my grandma as CFO or responsable for the salaries, so she beeing gaga and not telling me she hasn't any money to pay the employees, will make me..I don't know, me beeing CEO I don not have to coordinate anything...
I'll "bunker" the money I have and wash my hands of it.
More of that; I have a better idea: I'll tell my customers I have a grrrreeeaaat idea and they should all be part of it by paying some 50 bucks..for the vision of my idea..but pssht be quiet, it will take some time till this vision materializes thogh.

Good to be CEO!

^^^^^^^^^^
||||||||||

there are smilies in this post..they are there to point out I'm making fun, and on a little bit sarcstic way.

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @fairlanefastback Again, you're making it personal and about Bill McEwen instead of the companies. Bill McEwen was probably not even in charge of salaries at neither of the companies,

But as CEO he was in charge of the companies, wasn't he?

Quote:

samface wrote: nor was he likely to be the one to decide which creditor was going to get what when Amino was selling off their assets. ...

Hmmmmm - I seem to remember that it has been said here (Tigger?) that ITEC - who ostensibly bought Amino's/AInc's assets - was NOT an creditor of Amino/AInc.

So how could they (ITEC) buy parts of Amino's/AInc's assets or even all of their assets then, BEFORE all of Amino's/AInc's debtors were paid fully?

Something definitely stinks...

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@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @fairlanefastback ... I'm guessing they had atleast 10-15 employees in their offices in snowqualmie, maybe more, ...

Doing what?
Twiddling their thumbs?
I would expect "10-15 employees, maybe more" to produce something tangible in the course of the years...

So I can only take it as one more bold announcement from McBill...

Quote:

samface wrote: ... Again, you don't hold an individual personally responsible for the debts of a company. ...

That depends on the companies legal form, I'd say.
Here in Germany e.g. we definitely have legal forms for companies where the owner is liable for ALL company debts - I'd assume that's valid for the US as well.

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@BigBentheAussie

Damn and I swore that I'd never involve myself in a political thread, but...

Quote:

Anyway, isn't a director of a company directly liable for the debt of that company, regardless of insolvency? How can one be allowed to be a CEO(like say McEwen) or director with such a blight against their name?

...no! A major 'selling point' of becoming an incorporated (or private limited company, Ltd, in England) is that nobody can be financially liable for more than the value of shares they own. If all Bill's shares were paid up front, then he would have no liability. If he had $3000 worth of shares, but he had not yet stumped up the cash for $1000, his liability would be limited to the $1000 of shares which he had yet to pay for.

This is how it works in UK law and I assume it is pretty much the same in US. Please correct me if I am wrong!

cheers!

@Pleng

Quote:

..no! A major 'selling point' of becoming an incorporated (or private limited company, Ltd, in England) is that nobody can be financially liable for more than the value of shares they own. If all Bill's shares were paid up front, then he would have no liability. If he had $3000 worth of shares, but he had not yet stumped up the cash for $1000, his liability would be limited to the $1000 of shares which he had yet to pay for.

In the UK if a company is found to have been trading illegally then that limitation becomes null and void. The directors then become liable for all debts of the company. This depends, of course, upon whom is winding up the company. If the company is being wound up by the directors they can appoint an insolvency practitioner with a gammy eye that wont look too closely at the books. If it is being done by a creditor of the company then they can appoint someone with 20:20 vision to go through the books as it is within the creditors interest to get their money back. I may have got this wrong as I found this out a couple of years ago when a limited company I worked for popped its rivets owing just shy of £1million pounds, including my bloody wages. The poo shoots. Got some of my wages back through the redundancy payments unit of the UK government. Don't know if there is something similar in the States that would help Bolten and co.

I do think though that it is Amino that should be paying the wages of all unpaid staff, not the current Amiga Inc. They are, after all, a different company and never actually employed Bolten and co. It would be VERY difficult for them to sue Amiga Inc (previously KMOS) for their wages IMHO. They, as SpaceDruid and Samface have said, only bought the IP, trademarks, et al from Amino and not the company along with its debt. Amino should have paid Bolten and co with the money they got from KMOS at the time of the grand Everything Must Go IP Sale.

Yes

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@TheodoreTwinky

Quote:

In the UK if a company is found to have been trading illegally then that limitation becomes null and void.

Well obviously there is not a way in the world that anybody who has been acting illegally can hid behind a company. If a company has been found to be trading illegally then it will be down to the responsibilities of the shareholders and/or company sectary, who can be prosecuted independently.

At this time, however, no company has been found to have been trading illegally.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @samface Quote: samface wrote: @pixie Who said they bought the company? The Amino formerly known as Amiga Inc. is still alive and AFAIK fighting a lawsuit filed by Hyperion. Why should Amiga Inc., formerly known as KMOS, pay the debts of Amino just because they bought certain assets from Amino? I mean, if I buy your car, do I have to pay your phone bills too? No but if you were to develop multiple personalities, and your one personality "Sam", sold your car (i.e. Amiga IP) to your other personality "Fred" you both still need to pay your phone bill (Employee Peck), because in reality you are the same person. The question for most it seems on this morality issue is that we don't see two distinct groups of people behind these two legal entities (Amino and KMOS). Thats the issue. Also I believe there were conflicting reports at the time whether "they" did buy the company beyond the assets to boot. But putting that aside, who is the different "they" that owned KMOS at the time vs. the "they" that owned Amino at the time? Hyperion's assertions in court only seem to bolster what seems visible to us on the outside on this front. Who are these buyers who constitued KMOS that never had any ties to Amino? I'm very open to hearing about this.

I don't know the legal standing in the AInc. shell game, but I have had a contractor that owed several of us subs a substantial amount of money. He (Tony Houseman Homes inc) changed his company to Tony Houseman Homebuilders inc. and paid us nothing as well as shafting several customers. I went to a couple of lawyers who told me it was done in a legal manner and we were out in the cold. After a year or so one sub decided to go over to his house to get his pound of flesh if you will (Texas justice) but Houseman died before he could do the deed. BTW this was all just recently and Houseman the crook has a state park named after him now (of course he donated the land with the stipulation of it being named after him). Point is crooks and con men know the system and know how to play the game. Hard working honest men (Bolton) will always be taken advantage of.

@samface

OK hold on here. You say 'The Amino formerly known as Amiga Inc is still alive and AFAIK fighting...' then you say 'the Amiga, Inc formerly known as KMOS' So you're a little unclear on the concept here. My paychecks all said 'Amino, Incorporated, dba Amiga Inc' but we called the company Amiga. Everyone from Amiga went over and started KMOS, then 'bought' all the assets, using some Taiwan investment money which I'd be surprised if it ever got paid back, or wasn't a Penti shell game in and of itself. That company by hook or by crook ended up back as Amiga, Incorporated which as you say is still alive. Incidentally, what happened to that Taiwan investment money?

So if Amiga is Amino and is still alive and fighting for its rights (as you clearly state!), and my paychecks all said Amino/Amiga, then..

Yes, they should pay us. Thank you for making my point for me. They should pay ALL of us.

@samface

Uhh, yeah actually he was in charge. He did in fact have final say over all that stuff. Oh that's right, you weren't there..

@samface

Quote:

I'm guessing they had atleast 10-15 employees in their offices in snowqualmie, maybe more, where it's not unlikely they had atleast one person employed as clerk/secretary/whatever who took care of the administrative tasks such as paying salaries. This person in return probably worked under some kind of chief of staff.

bolds accents in the quote added above by me



Yep you are guessing.

Sure, maybe, maybe not too.

On your percentage freehand guess of what is "not unlikely" what odds did you lay on the opposite?

Probably huh, hmmm...

"Some kind o chief of staff", keep that imaginitive brain going there!

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 06-Feb-2008 at 07:32 PM.

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