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      /  [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
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Poll : Pay off former employees before hiring new ones?
Yes
No
 
PosterThread
Tronman 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 6-Feb-2008 19:31:47
#61 ]
Member
Joined: 2-Apr-2005
Posts: 11
From: Unknown

@samface

Yes, you can. When the CEO himself promises again and again how you're gonna get paid, and he's gonna take care of the seven grand in health insurance bills you racked up because he said you had insurance when he knew good and well you did not, because he didn't pay the bill, well, I've got the judgment that proves you are wrong on this one, at least in the US. Not conjecture, but actual legal paper which all interested parties here have seen.

Don't blame the secretary or payroll clerk here, it's not their fault. We didn't get paid at Christmas 2001 while the McEwen family presents filled his office so full that his wife had to come out in the spare cube and finish wrapping 'em. That made us all feel that Christmas spirit..

There was money at times when we weren't getting paid. Not a lot of it, but some. The paychecks right after Valentine's day 2002 come to mind. They told us they were gonna pay, then decided at the last minute not to. I went in Vince's office and raised a big stink, then we got paid. I'm not the only one that did this either.

In the United States, in a small company like Amiga, the CEO is liable for employee payroll. He can usually get out of most of the other stuff, but when it comes to employees, they and the landlord are FIRST in line. However they do have to get a lawyer to make it happen.

So in fact the person is responsible for company debts, in this case anyway. At least those debts where the creditor showed up to do something about it. I feel worse for all the other guys and gals who took Bill at his word, and presumably keep taking it, and haven't seen red cent one.

There are 'Blue Sky Laws' meant to keep companies from doing what Amiga did with the shell game-and that's exactly what it was, let's not mince words. They started a new shell company with the same personnel down to a man, transferred on paper all the IP assets of the debt ridden original company to it, then re-incorporated a 'new' Amiga in a different state with, again, the same personnel down to a man, doing the same thing, with the same IP, in the same county of the same state. Along the way involving another company iTech, who were an investor and might have owned the IP for a brief time to make things look legit on paper.

Technically, yes, what they did is somewhat arguable to be legal. However it is also very easily arguable to be not legal, and for sure not ethical, but the reality is that (unless Hyperion pursues their line of legal logic and wins) it would take more time and money to attorneys to prove this than the value of their IP will likely ever be, making it unlikely for anyone to want to take the time/spend the money. So essentially they took this gamble knowing there was a pretty good chance they'd get away with it. This is according to my attorney, so pretty well informed conjecture

Also, there's no W in Snoqualmie.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 6-Feb-2008 19:49:51
#62 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@SpaceDruid

Quote:
Pentti may have had investor interests in Amino, but he had no direct control over the company or Bill. Now he does. Thats a big change


Please substantiate this. You need this for your argument to work obviously, but can you prove this is any way? Very few big investors holding company shares, whether in a private firm or a public firm have the lack of control you are willing to emphatically state here. Where are you getting this information from? Again substantiate this. If you can you will gain converts to your way of thinking. The trick is can you do that or are you just wishing and hoping this is the case?

Quote:
Bill OWNED Amino.


And who owns it now since you were careful to use the past tense here?

You have agreed that the Bill/Pentti combination was present at both and that at least one of the two was in charge of each entity. This is the dynamic duo that people are mad at for not paying back for coupons and whom people are upset with for what happened to Mr. Peck. I'll throw what you said to me to back in your direction: "Simple enough for you?"


Quote:
I'm stating facts about business practices that occur daily.

Did I say anywhere that I thought they were good business practices? In fact, my use of the words "shell game" would suggest exactly the opposite.


Then stop being annoyed or surprised by people who have a greater sense of morality than you care to. And stop telling people they are too down on Amiga and that you have a clearer insight because you were out of the loop for a while. You want to sway people towards a position of supporting what Amiga Inc. is doing and yet you admit what you admit here?

Quote:
so I expect Bill was given very little choice in this.


Why? They claim a sale of assets. If there was a sale of assets compensation for the assests went to Amino. Why was there no payment from that money, even a partial payment to Bolton. What happened to the money? The fact that none of it went to Bolton, none at all is disturbing and why its been a topic of conversation for years and why someone like Darth-X finds it disturbing and why the poll has the vote count it does in favor of paying people like Bolton.

Quote:
Anyway, I am going to remove myself from this thread as its just the same old thread being recycled for the billionth time about the same tired old subjects which came about because of a trollish poll about something that would never happen even in a perfect world of flowery people who had the sun coming out of their backsides.


If its a trollish poll hit the report button and email the mods. And the next time someone helps you out in life even though they didn't need to bother be glad that someone had sun coming out their backsides for you in time of need. Goodbye from this thread then.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 06-Feb-2008 at 09:12 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 06-Feb-2008 at 09:10 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 6-Feb-2008 20:02:54
#63 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@all

Well, IMO, I think Tronman, as a former employee, has done a good job of laying Samface and Spacedruid's conjecture to rest.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 6-Feb-2008 20:58:19
#64 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@Tronman

Quote:
We didn't get paid at Christmas 2001 while the McEwen family presents filled his office so full that his wife had to come out in the spare cube and finish wrapping 'em. That made us all feel that Christmas spirit..



Thats so beyond awful I don't even know what to say. My god thats just insane.

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Moxee 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 6-Feb-2008 23:16:36
#65 ]
Team Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 6291
From: County Yakima, WA State, USA

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@Tronman

Quote:
We didn't get paid at Christmas 2001 while the McEwen family presents filled his office so full that his wife had to come out in the spare cube and finish wrapping 'em. That made us all feel that Christmas spirit..



Thats so beyond awful I don't even know what to say. My god thats just insane.


I don't have any words for this either.

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Zardoz 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 0:00:51
#66 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Moxee

Quote:
I don't have any words for this either.


I do but they're not suitable for a family-friendly website.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 2:16:31
#67 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@all

I wonder if anyone who voted No would vote differently now with what Tronman shared with us.

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 2:18:54
#68 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@Amigo1

Quote:

Amigo1 wrote:
@samface

Quote:

samface wrote:
@fairlanefastback

Again, you're making it personal and about Bill McEwen instead of the companies. Bill McEwen was probably not even in charge of salaries at neither of the companies, nor was he likely to be the one to decide which creditor was going to get what when Amino was selling off their assets. Drop the conspiracy theories and personal persecution, please.

I'm not defending anything or anyone, I'm just trying to get some sanity into the debate and point out an obvious case of "barking up the wrong tree".


I usually avoid to get involved in these discussions but to train my english skills. Since not having enough information of what's going on behind the courtains and the "acting power" to change anything this hole blabla is pointless IMHO. (Although I like reading it, it's pretty entertaining sometimes so keep going :-d)

but regarding this post of yours, well bottom line, I understand your statemt as:
You can be the CEO of a company but are not liable for your company's financial situation?


Exactly. The company is it's own legal entity and therefore the company itself is responsible for it's financial undertakings and responsibilities rahter than any of it's employees.

Quote:
I will found a company and put my grandma as CFO or responsable for the salaries, so she beeing gaga and not telling me she hasn't any money to pay the employees, will make me..I don't know, me beeing CEO I don not have to coordinate anything...
I'll "bunker" the money I have and wash my hands of it.
More of that; I have a better idea: I'll tell my customers I have a grrrreeeaaat idea and they should all be part of it by paying some 50 bucks..for the vision of my idea..but pssht be quiet, it will take some time till this vision materializes thogh.


Not being responsible for the financial responsibilities and undertakings of your company doesn't liberate you from any other legal responsibilities. Like I said, a debt caused as a direct result of your misconduct would be something you would of course be held responsible for.

What I'm trying to say here is that a lack of funds is initself nothing you would be held responsible for. Otherwise it would be lots of people in jail every time the stock exchange plunges, now wouldn't there? :P

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 2:41:00
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@Tronman

Quote:

Tronman wrote:
@samface

OK hold on here. You say 'The Amino formerly known as Amiga Inc is still alive and AFAIK fighting...' then you say 'the Amiga, Inc formerly known as KMOS' So you're a little unclear on the concept here.


You're confused by the mere fact that these 2 companies both are or has been named Amiga? Surely you must've heard of companies buying trademarks and naming rights from each other before?

Quote:
My paychecks all said 'Amino, Incorporated, dba Amiga Inc' but we called the company Amiga. Everyone from Amiga went over and started KMOS, then 'bought' all the assets, using some Taiwan investment money which I'd be surprised if it ever got paid back, or wasn't a Penti shell game in and of itself. That company by hook or by crook ended up back as Amiga, Incorporated which as you say is still alive. Incidentally, what happened to that Taiwan investment money?


Look, I'm sure none of these "shell games" as you call it would have taken place if they could have gotten the money to continue their business without it. My "wild" guess is that they had the choice of either doing this or simply close down, leaving *noone* better off than today, including you. Atleast this way they got the ability to keep their jobs and perhaps even start making money again. Although, the question remains wether they have a moral obligation to pay what their former company's debts.

Quote:
So if Amiga is Amino and is still alive and fighting for its rights (as you clearly state!), and my paychecks all said Amino/Amiga, then..


I don't know how this makes sense to you but let's try this again. We're not talking about the same company. The one you worked for, back then refered to as Amiga Inc., is not the same company known as Amiga Inc. today.

Quote:
Yes, they should pay us. Thank you for making my point for me. They should pay ALL of us.


Only Amino has a legal obligation to do so, even if one can argue that the company today known as Amiga Inc. has a moral obligation.

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Zardoz 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 2:55:48
#70 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@samface

Quote:
I don't know how this makes sense to you but let's try this again. We're not talking about the same company. The one you worked for, back then refered to as Amiga Inc., is not the same company known as Amiga Inc. today.


It's not the same company, only the same staff, same investors, same products, same contracts, etc. I don't know enough about corporate law to know whether this is legally wrong but it most definitely is morally wrong. However, morals and companies do not go together very well in general.

Quote:
Only Amino has a legal obligation to do so, even if one can argue that the company today known as Amiga Inc. has a moral obligation.


Actually, Amino and Bill McEwen, he was included in Bolton's lawsuit and lost, together with Amino.

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gary_c 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 3:04:12
#71 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@samface

Quote:
Look, I'm sure none of these "shell games" as you call it would have taken place if they could have gotten the money to continue their business without it.

That doesn't justify the dishonesty.

Quote:
My "wild" guess is that they had the choice of either doing this or simply close down, leaving *noone* better off than today, including you.

Seems to me they'd have done better to close down then. I don't know how many people are happy Amiga has continued its zombie march for the last several years rather than just close up shop and try to claim at least a little dignity instead of years of making goofball announcements like for products "better than MacOS X" and a business marketing other people's cell phone games.

Quote:
Although, the question remains wether they have a moral obligation to pay what their former company's debts.

Are you putting us on here with this statement, or are you being intentionally dense, or do you actually share Amiga management's moral deficiencies?

-- Gary

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 3:38:50
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@gary_c

Quote:

gary_c wrote:
@samface

Quote:
Look, I'm sure none of these "shell games" as you call it would have taken place if they could have gotten the money to continue their business without it.

That doesn't justify the dishonesty.


I'm not going to ask. You never were an Amiga employee and has at the most heard the statements of someone who was or someone who knows someone who was. By your own standards from our past discussions, you know as much about the "dishonest" behaviour by Amiga Inc. as I do about BBRV's dishonest behaviour towards certain former MorphOS developers and Genesi/Thendic employees/contractors.

Quote:
Quote:
My "wild" guess is that they had the choice of either doing this or simply close down, leaving *noone* better off than today, including you.

Seems to me they'd have done better to close down then. I don't know how many people are happy Amiga has continued its zombie march for the last several years rather than just close up shop and try to claim at least a little dignity instead of years of making goofball announcements like for products "better than MacOS X" and a business marketing other people's cell phone games.


Huh? You mean they have somehow lessened the quality of people's lives by instead of being dead, acting like they were dead? If their mere existence bothers you so much, obviously they are not as dead as you portray them to be.

Furthermore, I find this arrogance quite stunning. Who made you, or anyone else not involved with their business, the ones to decide what would be a dignified ending? Who made you the one to decide when the end has been reached? Being a mere Amiga consumer of the 80's/90's doesn't give you any such right, no matter how "loyal" you have been nor how many Amiga Workbench hacks you put up on Aminet as a true 1337 Amiga user.

Quote:
Quote:
Although, the question remains wether they have a moral obligation to pay what their former company's debts.

Are you putting us on here with this statement, or are you being intentionally dense, or do you actually share Amiga management's moral deficiencies?

-- Gary


Well, not unlike you have argued in the matters of Genesi's obligations to pay their former employees and contractors, there are two sides to a coin and one who is not directly involved or for some other reason has actual knowledge of the issues involved should not be so quick to pass judgement. With regards to Amiga Inc. vs "Tronman", a quite different story was told by Gary Peake (R.I.P.) on ANN.lu at one time:

http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1055572341&category=web&number=36#comment

Supported by another "fellow Amiga employee" here:

http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1055572341&category=web&number=46#comment

Not saying we should trust Gary more than Tronman, just pointing out that there are different stories told depending on who you listen to.

Last edited by samface on 07-Feb-2008 at 04:43 AM.
Last edited by samface on 07-Feb-2008 at 04:35 AM.

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 3:58:02
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@Tronman

Quote:
When the CEO himself promises again and again how you're gonna get paid, and he's gonna take care of the seven grand in health insurance bills you racked up because he said you had insurance when he knew good and well you did not, because he didn't pay the bill, well, I've got the judgment that proves you are wrong on this one, at least in the US. Not conjecture, but actual legal paper which all interested parties here have seen.


Thats odd. Here I was, thinking that I said not being personally responsible for a company's debt doesn't acquit you from charges of misconduct. Tronman, not even in the US do a CEO have to pay a company's debts out of his own pockets for the sole reason of the company being out of funds. I think this must be the thrid time I'm explaining this, am I not clear enough? What part of what I'm saying is so hard to understand?

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jahc 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 7:55:05
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-May-2003
Posts: 2959
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@samface

Quote:
I think this must be the thrid time I'm explaining this, am I not clear enough? What part of what I'm saying is so hard to understand?

It's almost as if hes disagreeing with you or something. Man, I've never seen that happen on a forum before!

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AlexC 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 8:50:44
#75 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Jan-2004
Posts: 1300
From: City of Lost Angels, California.

@Darth_X

Should they? Yes. That's quite obvious, at least to those who are honest and honorable.

Could they? Yes. They can afford it now.

Will they? No. That's quite obvious too, as they aren't honest nor honorable.

Ripping people of can be dangerous though, no piece of paper saying Delaware on it has ever stopped a baseball bat...

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damocles 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 10:31:19
#76 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@Tronman

Quote:
Technically, yes, what they did is somewhat arguable to be legal. However it is also very easily arguable to be not legal, and for sure not ethical, but the reality is that (unless Hyperion pursues their line of legal logic and wins) it would take more time and money to attorneys to prove this than the value of their IP will likely ever be, making it unlikely for anyone to want to take the time/spend the money. So essentially they took this gamble knowing there was a pretty good chance they'd get away with it. This is according to my attorney, so pretty well informed conjecture


IIRC, correct me if I am wrong, please, but why didn't you go after McBill personally since he was personally found liable along with Amino in the judgement? I do not know what WA State laws are like, but I could only imagine they would be close to other states' laws. In FL you have 20 year window to collect judgements @ 10% APR.

Last edited by damocles on 07-Feb-2008 at 10:32 AM.

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number6 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 14:00:10
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@AlexC

Quote:
Could they? Yes. They can afford it now.


From my post#2:

Quote:
-Should- he pay?
I sincerely doubt -should- comes into play here. I see no ability to do so.


#6

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 15:33:12
#78 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@jahc

Disagreeing to what I meant by what I said? Well, in that case, it's not even possible for me to be wrong.

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Yo 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 15:45:52
#79 ]
Team Member
Joined: 8-Oct-2004
Posts: 2043
From: France, on an ADSL line

@samface

/me reads this, shakes her head, reads it again...

Nope... I cannot parse that.

However, I THINK it makes a swell argument. I'll just note that down...

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stew 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 15:53:11
#80 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2003
Posts: 453
From: Unknown

@samface

Here is the problem. The CEO was the company, he got paid enough to buy presents, and had health insurance yet let the employees suffer.. Goes with the new company with same job ect.. Yet he refuses to acknowledge the obligation to make it right. Is the new company off the hook? Yes, but.. It would have been different if BillMc had sacrificed to help his employees and went down with them but he abandoned them. If there had been some abiguity in them amount owed or employment contract there could be some extenuating cicumstances, but instead BillMc ,on public forums, stated that Tronman was not worth what BillMc had agreed to pay him. McBill is worthless as well as his Ainc. Unlike many here that use this fact to color the Hyperion case, they cases are totaly seperate. Tronman needs to be payed by McBill nless McBill is in the street homeless from paying all his obligations. Tronman did not try to sue for extras to get rich but just what he was owed. McBill could'nt even be bothered to show up in court!
I employ several people in my construction company. They get paid before all other bills include myself. If there is hard times they are told they will have to be let go or when they will be paid, never strung along. If things are going bad it is on me to take the hit not them, just as when things are going good the benefits are mine. I can never see not paying employees. Changing company names to get out of debt free is wrong (and for Billsey unchristian) and this showed what Ainc was about long before this law suit mess came about.

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