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      /  [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
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Poll : Pay off former employees before hiring new ones?
Yes
No
 
PosterThread
fairlanefastback 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 16:23:59
#81 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@Yo

Quote:

Yo wrote:
@samface

/me reads this, shakes her head, reads it again...

Nope... I cannot parse that.

However, I THINK it makes a swell argument. I'll just note that down...


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logicalheart 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 19:01:08
#82 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Dec-2003
Posts: 696
From: Sandy, Utah. USA

Well said Stew.

Also, the comparison that was made to the stock market is incorrect. When you buy stocks, there is no agreement for returned value. When you buy products, or buy service, there is.

The United States laws which deny that corporations are created and operated by people, and excuse debt instead of satisfying it, are wrong. As long as citizens are complacent with unjust law, we will eventually reap the consequences.

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 20:23:09
#83 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@Yo

Quote:
@jahc

Disagreeing to what I meant by what I said? Well, in that case, it's not even possible for me to be wrong.


Quote:

Yo wrote:
@samface

/me reads this, shakes her head, reads it again...

Nope... I cannot parse that.

However, I THINK it makes a swell argument. I'll just note that down...


It's actually rather simple. You cannot disagree to what I mean. Noone knows what I mean, ie the thoughts behind my statements, better than me. It's like telling me I'm wrong when I say that I like the color red. See?

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 20:25:58
#84 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@stew

Again, if you read the statements of Gary Peake, we don't know what really happened and shouldn't be so quick to judge who is morally obliged to do anything. I see no point in discussing this any further.

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 20:35:34
#85 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@fairlanefastback

Simply couldn't refrain from jumping the gun and let the world know how crazy my arguments are, eh? Oh well, make a strawman out of your preconcieved notions all you like, maybe you should become an editor at WrongPlanet? Imagine all the debate's you'd "win"...

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pixie 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 20:39:40
#86 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3115
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@samface

Quote:
It's actually rather simple. You cannot disagree to what I mean. Noone knows what I mean, ie the thoughts behind my statements, better than me. It's like telling me I'm wrong when I say that I like the color red. See?


Who cares if you like talking to yourself? Why not keep those thought to yourself then? No one likes them better then you after all, you might as well keep them.

And no, I cannot be wrong on this one...

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fairlanefastback 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 21:04:06
#87 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote:
@fairlanefastback

Simply couldn't refrain from jumping the gun and let the world know how crazy my arguments are, eh? Oh well, make a strawman out of your preconcieved notions all you like, maybe you should become an editor at WrongPlanet? Imagine all the debate's you'd "win"...


All this for a smiley directed at a post from Yo? I think you were already directed by a mod to take this stuff to a Moderator Lite thread they have. But thats your own business.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 21:23:27
#88 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@samface

Quote:
shouldn't be so quick to judge who is morally obliged to do anything


Who is being quick after all these years given the overall history we have seen with the Hare lawsuit, the Thendic lawsuit, the Kent affair, the ACK machines BS, the coupons, etc. You choose to side more with Amiga as far as benefit of the doubt despite this. The majority gives the benefit of the doubt instead to people like Bolton because of the totality of what they have seen makes that a more rational choice for them. You are not preaching neutrality, you actually wrote that Bolton should be happy Amiga still exists even after what he says they did to him. You've decided in favor of the other side. Thats not neutral. Don't be so quick to point a finger when you do the same thing, just in the opposite direction. Lets also remember a court of law decided in Mr. Peck's favor. We all have to deal with imperfect information to make the best decisions we can. You have decided to favor Amiga with that info, others choose the opposite, the majority in fact, from this poll. I actually think it was good you quoted Gary Peake's posts. Its a good thing to keep in mind, but that dosen't change the fact that Bolton has a judgement personally against Bill and Amiga still chooses to employ Bill and let him embarass the brand with stuff like "much better than OS X from Apple" and to announce ACK machines and then nothing, not bother to show at Amiga show events, waste months on some outlandish deal with Kent. Do you really think Bill is just some tremendous magnet for bad luck? I'll say it again Sammy, the world is not only black and white, there are many shades of grey.

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Moxee 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 7-Feb-2008 21:59:59
#89 ]
Team Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 6291
From: County Yakima, WA State, USA

@logicalheart

Quote:

logicalheart wrote:

The United States laws which deny that corporations are created and operated by people, and excuse debt instead of satisfying it, are wrong.


Darn right! I am fed up with the likes of: "Enron says", "Amiga, Inc./Amino says". BULL! Enron or Amiga, Inc./Amino can't say anything nor make decisions! People do this! It is about time we hold these people accountable for their actions and decisions instead of letting them hide behind incorporation.

Quote:
As long as citizens are complacent with unjust law, we will eventually reap the consequences.


I am all for making them more responsible.

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 1:00:21
#90 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@samface

Quote:
It's actually rather simple. You cannot disagree to what I mean. Noone knows what I mean, ie the thoughts behind my statements, better than me. It's like telling me I'm wrong when I say that I like the color red. See?


Who cares if you like talking to yourself? Why not keep those thought to yourself then? No one likes them better then you after all, you might as well keep them.

And no, I cannot be wrong on this one...


Sure you can. You chose to speak for not just yourself and portrayed the situation as if noone could possibly agree with me. For this reason, you may very well be wrong. In fact, I'm quite sure you are.

Last edited by samface on 08-Feb-2008 at 01:04 AM.

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 1:01:57
#91 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@fairlanefastback

More character assasination rethorics from fairlanefastback, how surprising. Please stop portraying your beliefs about me as facts. Even better, I'd appreciate if you dropped the character assasination rethorics completely.

Last edited by samface on 08-Feb-2008 at 01:08 AM.

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pixie 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 1:24:38
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3115
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@samface

Quote:
Sure you can. You chose to speak for not just yourself and portrayed the situation as if noone could possibly agree with me. For this reason, you may very well be wrong. In fact, I'm quite sure you are.


No, no, no, Sam... you simply don't understand. At all...

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fairlanefastback 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 1:40:46
#93 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@samface

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 1:57:41
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@Moxee

So, would you say running out of cash, regardless of the circumstances, is a crime? Look, I understand the frustration from someone ending up not getting payed for the job he has done and all, but to put the blame on an individual for no other reason besides his title is wrong. Even a CEO has rights and should not be held responsible for anything more than the proven to be direct consequences of his own actions like the rest of us.

To be fair, the successrate of a company depends on not just the CEO but just as much on the job of his employees. From the point of view of someone with several years working experience and now running his own business, I must say that few workers wait to ask for a raise when the company does well while few are willing to accept a pay cut when things doesn't go so well. Alot of people simply demand more than what they are willing to be held accountable for.

As another interesting aspect, in the beginning of the IT-revolution, few CEO's had the competence to know a good programmer from a bad one. In fact, there were so many "bad programmers" hired that some people believe it was a major contributing factor to the burst of the great IT-bubble. Sure, one can blame the CEOs here like people usually do. It's a joint responsibility if you ask me.

If we take a deeper look into the historical aspect, lots of company's goes down and many people ends up without pay in times of depression. Imagine the CEO hunt there would have been during the great depression in the 1930's, there would probably have been a "CEO scare" instead of the "red scare".

However, I'm not trying to defend anyone here. I'm just worried about the "which-hunt"-like mood that seems to be stirring up here. If Bill McEwen actually did commit misconduct, well, that's an entirely different matter. Focus on what we know.

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 1:58:55
#95 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@fairlanefastback

Exactly, *I* am not the topic here.

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number6 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 1:59:23
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11540
From: In the village

@samface

Quote:
More character assasination rethorics from fairlanefastback, how surprising. Please stop portraying your beliefs about me as facts. Even better, I'd appreciate if you dropped the character assasination rethorics completely.


Yo:
Quote:
@samface

Look. I just want the silly bickering to stop, that's all, ok?

NO ONE looks mature, clever or on-form if you are throwing mud and insults around. Links to 'humour sites', which are ancient anyway, I can't see how I can be held responsible for, honestly. If you have a problem with it, let me know in a PM and I will gladly remove all links.

I KNOW you have tons of knowledge and experience to share, but can you PLEASE just try to NOT let others troll and bait you, please? If they try, I WILL be on top of them, I promise.

Reasoned arguments are something else. People discussing their points of view in a calm, rational manner is what I would love to have happen. I am sure that can't be too much trouble. It just requires the liberal use of thought, consideration and refection before you hit the enter key.

If you feel an injustice against you has occurred, hit the AR button, and follow up, if you think it describes the problem more thoroughly, with a PM to one of us. We cannot mind read and what offends one person, may humour someone else. Every AR is reviewed by staff and appropriate action is then followed.

Going forward, can we simply either keep to the topic on this thread, take it to Moderation Lite... or if you have further things to say to a member, take it to PMs?

Thank you.


wegster:
Quote:
@thread
Slight additon to Yo's post.

Contrary to seeming popular belief, we do not always read every single post, let alone in a long thread. I'd gone looking for this link Samface mentioned without spotting it in the first place.

PMs should be used to other users in the event you BOTH feel like it, and are unable to follow the TOS in your postings, or regarding any moderation against _yourself_ that you may take issue with. ARs should be used on posts you have issues with, and want brought to Staff's attention. A PM to Staff about an AR already filed is fine, assuming it needs explanation.

Additional flames in this thread belong in the Mod Lite thread or in private PMs between the individuals involved, or will be dealt with as TOS violations, period.


Erm..what part of these moderators' requests did you NOT understand?

#6

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gary_c 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 2:09:11
#97 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@samface

Quote:
You never were an Amiga employee and has at the most heard the statements of someone who was or someone who knows someone who was


No, actually there is more evidense, and its about as objective as can be: Tronman sued Amiga and won. I'm willing to accept the judgement of the US judicial system on this matter.

Quote:
You mean they have somehow lessened the quality of people's lives by instead of being dead, acting like they were dead?

That's my opinion, yes. They have further eroded the brand we all value. They have continued to lead people on with false promises, etc., etc. I don't really see what good the company (in any of its corporate manifestations) had done, and don't see any purpose for it to exist. Yes, surely the assets would have been better off with an owner that a) truly understood them and appreciated them, and b) had the business acumen to do something constructive with them. Maybe such an owner existed, maybe not, but we're talking "what if" here in any case, so, yes, I think almost any other fate for the Amiga brand and Amiga as a company would have been better than what did happen.

Quote:
Who made you, or anyone else not involved with their business, the ones to decide what would be a dignified ending?

It's hard to believe that after all these years of participating in forum discussions, you still don't understand the basic idea that people submit their opinions because they simply want to share them and have them considered. Of course none of us "decides" what would be a dignified ending, or anything else. We just give our opinions on the topic. You don't have to agree, but it's appropriate for people to voice opinions. That's fundamental to having a discussion, right?

Quote:
Well, not unlike you have argued in the matters of Genesi's obligations to pay their former employees and contractors,

I've always said Genesi should pay what is rightfully owed. But the topic here is Amiga, Inc. As far as I know, whatever Genesi did or didn't do has no bearing on Amiga, Inc.'s obligations to pay employees, so is off-topic here.

Quote:
Not saying we should trust Gary more than Tronman, just pointing out that there are different stories told depending on who you listen to.

And again I'm just saying an objective outsider -- the court -- heard both sides and decided Tronman had a legitimate claim (i.e., was the one to be trusted), so respect that decision or not, as you like.

-- gary_c

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Moxee 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 2:54:06
#98 ]
Team Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 6291
From: County Yakima, WA State, USA

@samface

Quote:

@Moxee

So, would you say running out of cash, regardless of the circumstances, is a crime?


Yes, I am saying that manipulation of your corporation for your personal gain and to the detriment of employees and/or stock holders is wrong. It is an epidemic now.

Corporations and governments are being portrayed as sentient beings. They are not. People are the ones making the decisions. People should be held responsible.

Also, I don't think we are getting anywhere in this discussion. It's the same old "us" against "them" throwing mud pies at each other.

Last edited by Moxee on 08-Feb-2008 at 03:19 AM.
Last edited by Moxee on 08-Feb-2008 at 03:06 AM.

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 3:13:22
#99 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@gary_c

Quote:

gary_c wrote:
@samface

Quote:
You never were an Amiga employee and has at the most heard the statements of someone who was or someone who knows someone who was


No, actually there is more evidense, and its about as objective as can be: Tronman sued Amiga and won. I'm willing to accept the judgement of the US judicial system on this matter.


Great. Legal action taken and ruled upon. So, why are we discussing like the matter wouldn't be settled? That's right, we're discussing the moral issues here. It's much easier to discuss if we are consistent in this regard, ok?

Furthermore, you are leaving out is the fact that it was a default judgement, which just confirms my claim that you don't know the "other side" of the story. Amiga Inc. had no funds to defend themselves at that point, not uncommon for companies unable to pay their employees, and unfortunately that doesn't prevent a US court from ruling.

A person without money would have gotten legal representation assigned to him/her by the court by the right all US citizens has, a company is simply screwed in the same situation. Although, it seems Bolten got legal aid from his new employer. Who was it again? Nevermind, that's another discussion.

Quote:
Quote:
You mean they have somehow lessened the quality of people's lives by instead of being dead, acting like they were dead?

That's my opinion, yes. They have further eroded the brand we all value.


You know what? That's just as stupid as saying that your favorite hockey team would owe you for losing in their latest game. Guess what? They owe you nothing and play their games in any way they like.

Quote:
They have continued to lead people on with false promises, etc., etc. I don't really see what good the company (in any of its corporate manifestations) had done, and don't see any purpose for it to exist.


1. Changed plans and outcomes that differes from announced plans and expected release dates happen all the time. Companies like micosoft do it on a regular basis. Get over it.

2. Companies doesn't have to do you "good" nor provide you with a purpose to justify it's existence. What you do as a consumer is vote with your wallet. Just don't buy their products if you don't like them or what they do. That's capitalistic justice, for you.

Quote:
Yes, surely the assets would have been better off with an owner that a) truly understood them and appreciated them, and b) had the business acumen to do something constructive with them.


Yet, neither is a factor for who gets the assets. Money rules this world, Gary.

Quote:
Maybe such an owner existed, maybe not, but we're talking "what if" here in any case, so, yes, I think almost any other fate for the Amiga brand and Amiga as a company would have been better than what did happen.


I disagree. Without them, like if Gateway would have simply put the IP away in their IP-vault down in their darkest basement instead of selling it to Amino, we would have had nothing. It would have been a certain death, not sure if there is such thing as a dignified death, but just plain and simple end to the Amiga saga. With Amiga Inc., we got AmigaOS4, the AmigaOne, the AmigaDE and now AA2 which has yet to show it's full potential. I really don't think we would be better off with nothing, even if there have been some regretful events on the road to where we are today.

Quote:
Quote:
Who made you, or anyone else not involved with their business, the ones to decide what would be a dignified ending?

It's hard to believe that after all these years of participating in forum discussions, you still don't understand the basic idea that people submit their opinions because they simply want to share them and have them considered. Of course none of us "decides" what would be a dignified ending, or anything else. We just give our opinions on the topic. You don't have to agree, but it's appropriate for people to voice opinions. That's fundamental to having a discussion, right?


Well, if you just wanted to voice your opinion and not have it challanged by, let's say, a different opinion, then avoid public forums and especially avoid challanging other people's opinions.

Quote:
Quote:
Not saying we should trust Gary more than Tronman, just pointing out that there are different stories told depending on who you listen to.

And again I'm just saying an objective outsider -- the court -- heard both sides and decided Tronman had a legitimate claim (i.e., was the one to be trusted), so respect that decision or not, as you like.


I actually agree and stated the same thing earlier. The question is however if the new Amiga Inc. which does not have a court ruling against them for unpaid salaries should they have to pay Amino's owed salaries or not.

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samface 
Re: [Poll] Should Amiga inc pay former employees?
Posted on 8-Feb-2008 3:18:38
#100 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2003
Posts: 1161
From: Norrköping, Sweden

@Moxee

Quote:

Moxee wrote:
@samface

Quote:

@Moxee

So, would you say running out of cash, regardless of the circumstances, is a crime?


Yes, I am saying that manipulation of your corporation for your personal gain and to the detriment of employees and/or stock holders is wrong. It is an epidemic now.


Ehh... "manipulation of your corporation for your personal gain and to the detriment of employees and/or stock holders" is NOT "regardless of the circumstances". It's in fact very specific circumstances. We're not discussing the same thing. I'm glad you do seem to agree with me, though.

Quote:
Corporations and governments are being portrayed as sentient beings. They are not. People are the ones making the decisions. People should be held responsible.


What I'm saying is that CEOs should of course be held responsible for their actions, which we all do no matter if we are CEOs or not, but not the ones to blame for everything whenever something goes wrong for the company. Some things happen outside of their control, would you atleast recognize as much?

Last edited by samface on 08-Feb-2008 at 03:18 AM.

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