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ChrisH 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 17-Feb-2008 9:27:15
#101 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@SpaceDruid
Sorry if you don't like what I say, but that's how I feel, based upon what little has been said so far by others & by Fleecy. If someone wants to change my mind, please posts some facts, otherwise my opinion won't be changing.

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SpaceDruid 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 17-Feb-2008 10:49:56
#102 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@Troels

Quote:

Supporting an existing Amiga operating system wouldn't be to much to ask IMHO. It would also be beneficial for Amiga inc as it would ensure at least some sort of support from the community. Should have been done already with AA/DE and would probably have made 10x more content available for.


Aye, totaly agree with you. I suspect polictics and inflexible policy is to blame.

Since the major selling point of OS5 (all those years ago) was the inclusion of the DE/AA, giving it to an earlier version of the OS would reduce the appeal of OS5 and of course, giving Hyperion (their major competitor) access to their flagship technology would further reduce the appeal.

Of course this is #### for the reasons you gave. Cutting their own noses off to spite their face.

I look forward to fleecy or McBill correcting me on this. Until then, that is my theory.

Oh and the loops of fire you have to jump through to get hold of the SDK doesn't help matters either. It reminds me of my first time on stage when I was lacking in confidence so badly that I turned my amps down after the sound check so that I wouldn't draw attention to myself. Of course it had the opposite effect since no bugger could hear me and people had to pay extra attention to me.

If you guys (Amiga) have confidence in your product, don't make it so hard to get.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 17-Feb-2008 10:54:49
#103 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Don't worry!
About a year or so You have plenty of AA2 developer and they go to the market with plentiful of tools, libs, and maybe own "helpcompiler" to port AA2 to other computer/OS.

You see, it's bee a good product to Amiga Inc to make money. More money giv us more good products.


Last edited by linnar on 17-Feb-2008 at 10:56 AM.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 17-Feb-2008 11:09:45
#104 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown


AA2 defined platform's:

WIN32
_WIN32
_WIN32_WCE
__CEGCC__
__MINGW32CE__
__MINGW32CE__
__MINGW32__
__linux__
__CYGWIN__
and
__AMIGAOS4__

I don't think they have a definie OS4 if they don't think port it.


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opi 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 17-Feb-2008 11:21:26
#105 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@linnar

Quote:
About a year or so You have plenty of AA2 developer and they go to the market with plentiful of tools, libs, and maybe own "helpcompiler" to port AA2 to other computer/OS.


Why no one wants to answer mine (Or Wegster, or mjg59, or ChrisH) question? I don't know how you get this "plenty developers in a year" statement -- any facts instead of gut feeling? So, to re cup our question:

Why should anyone, as a developers, pick up or consider picking up AA2? It has less features that other offerings, it makes you jump the hoops to obtain it, it has only C bindings, it can compile for one platform, there's no public road map, there's no information on exit strategy (Think QT, TrollTech signed deal with contributors that states "If we dump this code in future, it goes to you guys), company record is weak.

If anyone else in this world would put something like that on the web -- non of you guys would notice -- "Ah, some library. Better focus on something tested, well documented, and with community" -- but since it carry "Amiga" sticker, you start do give it more credit than it deserves.

So, convince me? I'm one of the people who you should get! I know what Amiga is and I'm a programmer. If you can't convince me, your chances outside are weak at best.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 17-Feb-2008 11:38:50
#106 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@opi
I can't convince You!
Only the future convince You!

I only can say wath I think!

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opi 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 17-Feb-2008 11:45:09
#107 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@linnar

Quote:
I can't convince You!


OK...

Quote:
Only the future convince You!


Ah, future. You see, I need to have solution for today. Or at least something that will keep my eye on projects as it evolves.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 6:18:52
#108 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote:

Oh and the loops of fire you have to jump through to get hold of the SDK doesn't help matters either. It reminds me of my first time on stage when I was lacking in confidence so badly that I turned my amps down after the sound check so that I wouldn't draw attention to myself. Of course it had the opposite effect since no bugger could hear me and people had to pay extra attention to me.

If you guys (Amiga) have confidence in your product, don't make it so hard to get.


This is an good example of the problems Amiga, Inc. has faced for years. Members of the public having to state the obvious to them. Especially since this AA2 middleware only officially supports Windows operating systems (and seems close on Linux) interest is likely to be quite low in the first place. Let alone if they are getting the word out in software developer circles much. The last thing they need is some programmer with some interest just giving up at the website when he or she sees they can't just click a simple link with a standard software user agreement to get the SDK. Hopefully they won't be too prideful (or stupid) to not listen to your good advice.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 6:33:38
#109 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@opi

Quote:

opi wrote:

Why should anyone, as a developers, pick up or consider picking up AA2? It has less features that other offerings, it makes you jump the hoops to obtain it, it has only C bindings, it can compile for one platform, there's no public road map, there's no information on exit strategy (Think QT, TrollTech signed deal with contributors that states "If we dump this code in future, it goes to you guys), company record is weak.

If anyone else in this world would put something like that on the web -- non of you guys would notice -- "Ah, some library. Better focus on something tested, well documented, and with community" -- but since it carry "Amiga" sticker, you start do give it more credit than it deserves.

So, convince me? I'm one of the people who you should get! I know what Amiga is and I'm a programmer. If you can't convince me, your chances outside are weak at best.


This pretty much says it all unless Amiga makes a MAJOR change in how they handle business going forward. So come on Fleecy, address what opi said here. This is a good opportunity for you to show the community, and the programmers within it, that you guys are serious this time and mean business. If Amiga can't show leadership in this way the programmers are not too likely to materialize.

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Leo 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 8:27:03
#110 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

Why no one wants to answer mine (Or Wegster, or mjg59, or ChrisH) question?

Plain, simple: anything that would lead to a negative answer is simply ignored... This is the Amiga in 2008.

Why would anyone choose AA2 ? - ignored

:)

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-pekr- 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 8:55:18
#111 ]
Member
Joined: 29-May-2007
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@opi

Opi, what answer do you want to hear? Your post is spot on. There are more cross-platform APis out there of course. Qt, SDL, etc. But to form a real platform, you also need things like networking, tasking, unicode, etc.

So far, what I can see from API structure, it has some basic features. I ask to myself, why they did not choose e.g. AmigaE and port it elsewhere?

The good thing is, that it is nice to see Amiga did some real job But I have to ask myself - is it enough? As I said - I am a REBOL promoter. For last 7 years we bugged Carl to create new architecture, extensible one, to allow comunity to extend REBOL at native level. We are finally getting there - most of host OS parts will be open-sourced. I really don't understand all that need for NDA etc. - they should really promote it, instead of keeping it hardly reachable.

I still worry about many missing parts. E.g. with R3, just adding Unicode layer, it took 3 months of work and nearly a rewrite of what was done. I have to ask in regards to AA2 - where is the network stack (not to mention abstracted stuff like web services etc.), where is the unicode, where are db connectors, where are UI classes? I really wonder how one could use it for anything like forms with fields, grids, focusing, resizing, etc.? Should AA2 be only games oriented?

Thru those questions I can finally see, how far R3 design goes. Carl is a genius. He has a platform, a language, the Amiga way - keeping simplicity in mind. R3/View compositing uses AGG library, and we can see three times or more performance for simple gfx stuff. Hundreds to thousands small gfx objects (GOBs) on screen are possible. It will be interesting, how AA2 does with its bobs & sprites.

In one year, you guys will get AA3 onto your Amigas - it will be called REBOL 3. The circle will be connected once again.

From strategic pov, I can understand AInc. - they want to have some revenue stream. I think that maybe it would be better, if they would sublicense Antix, or R3 and actually add some value to it. This is imo question of control of ownership. I think that AInc. screwed the situation in the past already, departing from QNX. We could have modern OS these days, with new Workbench, if we wished for. The obsession to own and control, killed the effort. It killed even OS4 effort. No need to repeat all the details once again

I wish AA2 would attract some developers, I wish Amiga computing would be fun once again. But AInc. would have to unify, communicate, etc., not to hide and separate. AA2 might be a good start to the new direction - the question is - isn't it too little too late?

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Pleng 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 9:35:55
#112 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Nov-2005
Posts: 458
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
One tiny thing you can do to get around this by writing the flowing lines on your top of your program

#define IF if (
#define THEN ){
#define ENDIF }
#define DO for(;;){
#define LOOP }
#define NEXT }



So, to make syntax similar to BASIC I have to add 6 extra lines of code to the beginning of my project? Where as AMOS worked like basic 'out of the box'. As I didn't know about the #define code (having never touched 'c' in my life other than the hello world application in C for DOS), and wouldn't have had you not told me about it, that doesn't sound particularly 'easy' to me.

Let's talk about libraries too, while we're here. If I want to print some text, or a sprite screen, I can just use a command in AMOS. No need to load a library to handle it at the beginning of my code. Can the same be said to be true of AA2?

And can we take the 'Hello World' challenge? Here is some code I knocked up in AMOS to display 'hello world' on the screen:



Quote:
Print "Hello World"


Would you be so kind as to show me the AA2 equivalent?

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GregS 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 10:12:08
#113 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: Perth Australia

@-pekr-

Being a REBOL fan my-self, and folks it is a technology we all need. REBOL 3 really needs something like ANTIX or AA 2.

REBOL cannot rely on independant compiles to run across the systems. Porting is not just cumbersome and with inherent problems of keeping all versions consistant, it virturally excludes thrid part developers contributing their own code.

Put REBOL 3 ontop of a portable base system, and it solves problems all round.

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Leo 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 10:25:27
#114 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

The obsession to own and control, killed the effort. It killed even OS4 effort. No need to repeat all the details once again

I wish AA2 would attract some developers, I wish Amiga computing would be fun once again. But AInc. would have to unify, communicate, etc., not to hide and separate. AA2 might be a good start to the new direction - the question is - isn't it too little too late?

True... But why using QNX when AmigaOS is so much better than anything else (well.. is it ?) ?

The only problem is that they would have to accept their errors... Something no one seems to be ready to do.

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-pekr- 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 10:29:25
#115 ]
Member
Joined: 29-May-2007
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@GregS

Greg, it is just question of deployment. On one hand, you favor AA2/Antix way, where you can have xy separate exes, on the other hand, ppl here miss VM kind of aproach (Java, .Net), which otoh requires you to have your VM "preinstalled" or awailable in order for your cross-platform app to be usable.

I think that R3 is mixture of all possible aproaches:

- REBOL as a language is just cross-platform compillabe library. No platform dependency inside. Don't forget that R3 is statically and dynamically linkable to your app.
- Then there is OS-host part - open-source part we need to port to each platform. That can be community effort already. That layer contains OS specific parts.
- And finally we will get encapper, which will allow you to pack various components and generate final exe for your platform. And that is your AA2 aproach.

I am sorry but I properly don't understand what you mean by portable layer and by "excluding third party developers ....".

Please look once again into R3 architecture explained: http://www.rebol.com/docs3/architecture.html

Remember - .exe is not a solution. How will you distribute it? I can't wait for my antivirus to directly deleting any .exe from my email when I receive that small app (some do remove .exe even if packed inside archive So you need VM, and then you need to somehow get it to ppl. The least obtrusive way is to go via browser plug-in ... and we will get there ....

Last edited by -pekr- on 18-Feb-2008 at 10:30 AM.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 12:08:36
#116 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@Pleng

It's more hard do learn C than Basic but it's more easy to programming after You learn it. With C You can do EVERYTHING You need to do with programming.

Take the time to learn, it's worth it!!

Amiga is very easy to programming in C but MS Windows is not easy.
When You learn to programming Windows it's easy to (but it's need mutch more cod to the windows own components).

With #define You can build up Yor own design of C.

it's not difficult to do this 'Print "Hello World"' in C.

You can't do this "GOSUB"
You can do this "GOTO" but You don't never use it.

Begin to learn C!
It's easy!
It's fun!
You can do everything!
You have many of C-compiler out there, for free!
You have plenty of libs out there, for free!

Last edited by linnar on 18-Feb-2008 at 12:12 PM.

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Pleng 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 13:15:13
#117 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Nov-2005
Posts: 458
From: Unknown

@linnar

Linnar. I do not need to do 'everything'.

I was told that AA2 was easier than AMOS. This is what I am contesting.

Don't get me wrong I am no AMOS fan, not by a long shot. But I think it's far too easy for the accomplished developer to forget the struggles they faced when learning. This is why none of the "game creation" languages are 'easy'.

For instance, I just started to learn (and have since given up) PLAY Basic. PLAY Basic talks about powerful mapping functions. So I find a routine to load a map and display it on the screen. I load in a map and plot a sprite on the screen. Now I need to find a way to stop that sprite from falling if it hits certain blocks on this map. Perhaps I can detect if a sprite has hit 'solid' block? Some way in the map editor to label blocks as solid. and a simple

If SPRITE(player) collide SOLIDBLOCK = FALSE
SPRITE(player).x = SPRITE(player).x+1
EndIF

Of course, none of this is possible. Firstly you have to use a command to move the sprite, it doesn't have a list of properties (like for, example, a VB object does),so you have to call a command to MOVE the sprite. This is not a difficult task but the big problem is that the mapping system doesn't HAVE such a collision system built in. Instead a custom routine needs to be written to place vectors all over the map. This, to the casual wanabe game-programmer is too much of a put-off. Certainly the reason I've invested time in so many game-programming systems is because I've wanted to concentrate on designing and making the game, not working out how to plot vectors on top of maths.

Anyway I'm going waaaaaay off topic.

I'd still like proof that AA2 is easier than AMOS. Hello world is a fair example. It took one line in AMOS. If a working compilable application hello world application can be created in one line of code then I'll start to believe it could be easier than AMOS.


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GregS 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 13:30:41
#118 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: Perth Australia

@-pekr-
"I am sorry but I properly don't understand what you mean by portable layer and by "excluding third party developers ...."."

I am sorry I did not express myself well at all.

The problem as I see it, is that REBOL core plus its plugins, can be cross platform recompiled by the REBOL organization.

However, if you have a product that needs some compiled code to run under REBOL, you, the third party, have to see to all the cross platform porting which is a major problem.

Whereas, put REBOL 3 on a crossplatform base like ANTIX/AA 2 then any compiled code runs with whatever ANTIX/AA 2 supports, which is rather neat.

How far ANTIX/AA 2 can be made into VM-environment is problematic.

If seen as a division of labour, ANTIX/AA 2 looking after platform hosting and one-off games etc.,. and REBOL 3 being a more generalisied application environment - it theoretcically looks like a very good and strong combination.

I don't know much about NET, and I positively dislike JAVA, so a more contained approach actually appeals to me very much. Of course the idea would be to unite these into a future Wildman/OS5 solution which hopefully would be a very minimalist OS approach.

Of course I am probably overlooking killer restrictions.

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opi 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 14:10:02
#119 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Pleng

Quote:
I'd still like proof that AA2 is easier than AMOS. Hello world is a fair example. It took one line in AMOS. If a working compilable application hello world application can be created in one line of code then I'll start to believe it could be easier than AMOS.


Well, C has to have "entry point" so unless you consider #include [..] void main(){ [...] } one line, it can't be done. But that's not the point. Hello world just gives you a hint how to put stuff on stdout. This is nothing. Can someone post example with:

Constructing: arrays, hash, datastructures

Looping over it: for, foreach, while (or whatever is implemented over ANSI C in AA2)

Conditions: if, switch

Can I use additional data types, like ranges? (myRange = 1..5;)

Do I have to relay on pointers?

How is memory managment made? Do I still need to malloc()? And track all memory I allocated?

C is great. But I expect that framework should take some chores from my hands.

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-pekr- 
Re: Amiga Anywhere 2.0 SDK
Posted on 18-Feb-2008 14:13:55
#120 ]
Member
Joined: 29-May-2007
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@GregS

ah, now I understand. The thing is, that "REBOL" has to exist for particular platform. Now what is REBOL with R3? It is interpreter DLL, which is cross-platform (no platform dependant code) and compillable rather easily by RT. Then there is "REBOL host" - surrounding OS specific mappings - those will be open-sourced. So yes, basically what you need is to port a rebhost to your platform of desire, and ask RT for rebol library.

The rest is a tradeoff. You either create app, which is fast enough, using plain REBOL code, and then you are cross-platform. Or you take rebcode (virtual assembler), and you speed some things up in a still cross-platform way. Or you create a plug-in - and then, of course, you are responsible for porting such plug-in libraries to other platforms. But - even plug-in code is here to simply extend default REBOL environment.

I prefer direct porting of things for particular platform (we are not talking about tens of megabytes of bloat instead of creating another layer, e.g. porting REBOL to .Net, JAVA, LLVM, Parrot - although you can expect, that some developers already expressed their will to experiment even in that area ...

Well, we got ourselves pretty off-topic here. If you are on AltME or ML, we could talk there. So far, R3 is pretty much vapor for Amigans, unless it is ported to AmigaOS/MorphOS

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