rouge: when will we get this dev cd ? and how to obtain it? , and i hope its not far away...

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@Rogue

Just a quick question...

H&P ditched the asm includes...

Will there be some all new PPC asm includes to use?

@Rogue

Quote:

Think of the XML file as a replacement for an FD file, only with a clearer definition. FD files (or rather, SFD files) try to pretend some C-like synax. That makes them rather difficult to parse. XML is well defined in this respect, and much more extensible, so we chose to use it instead.

Please forgive me for being probably the only one questioning all this, but I really can't see the point in what you say. You say that SFD files are difficult to parse, yet a parser exists already and you even had to write your own to translate SFD's to XML files.

I must be missing something, but I can't see how this tool to automatically generate header files and library's scheletons required XML files, when all that was needed was there already.

Besides, such XML files are certainly more difficult to write than a bunch of function prototypes, and a lot more difficult for an human to parse: those files need to be written by humans, hence it would make sense to make life easier for humans than for the computer, but that's probably just my opinion...

Again, sorry to spoil the brot

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@falemagn

Envy is a terrible thing.

@Rogue

How about g++?

@Uncharted
Quote:

Envy is a terrible thing.

Probably, but envy's got nothing to do with what I wrote: AROS build system, thanks to Staf Verhaegen, makes life even easier for writing libraries than those xml files could ever do.

You might want to try to write something that makes sense, next time

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@falemagn
Quote:

falemagn wrote: @Uncharted Quote: Envy is a terrible thing. Probably, but envy's got nothing to do with what I wrote: AROS build system, thanks to Staf Verhaegen, makes life even easier for writing libraries than those xml files could ever do. You might want to try to write something that makes sense, next time

I was talking about the fact that you feel the neeed to "spoil the brot", because AmigaOS gets far more attention from developers than AROS does.

I'll say it again you're not "spoiling anyone's broth" that bitter taste you detect is your own sour grapes.

@falemagn

If you dont like using XML I will happily supply you with a link so you can use the Xeena graphical editor and even a Xeena profile to give you nice pretty point and click graphics to do it with.

Ah the power of XML.

@Uncharted

Quote:

I was talking about the fact that you feel the neeed to "spoil the brot", because AmigaOS gets far more attention from developers than AROS does.

Hum... well, I wonder how I could I reply to that? I mean, you've made your mind up already, of course telling you that that's not how it is won't work, right? O course not.

But fact is, that's not how it is. I don't "envy" AOS4, I've much better things to do in my life than be envious of the "attention from developers" AOS4 gets, I'm simply a developer myself and I think I'm free to expose my opinions on the matter. When there's something good to say, I say it, when I feel there's some critics to do, I do them.

Now, if you have anything meaningful to say about the issues I raised, I will gladly reply, but if your only purpose is to start a flamewar with me, I will have to stop replying to you, as I have lots of better things to do than getting dragged in a flamefest because of some fanatics.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@DaveP
Quote:

If you dont like using XML I will happily supply you with a link so you can use the Xeena graphical editor and even a Xeena profile to give you nice pretty point and click graphics to do it with.

And how would that be easier than writing a bunch of prototypes? And how would that answer to the question: why reinvent the wheel?

Quote:

Ah the power of XML.

XML is nothing more than a bloated way to describe structured data, NOT made to be used/read by humans but rather by machines. And the example given by Rogue shows this latter point very well.

There are far more efficient ways of representing structured data, XML is one of the worse ones. And that's, of course, not just my opinion.

But anyway, I wasn't interested in debating about XML per se, let's not hijack the discussion

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@falemagn
Quote:

falemagn wrote: @Uncharted Quote: I was talking about the fact that you feel the neeed to "spoil the brot", because AmigaOS gets far more attention from developers than AROS does. Hum... well, I wonder how I could I reply to that? I mean, you've made your mind up already, of course telling you that that's not how it is won't work, right? O course not.

Is that because I hit the nail on the head?

Quote:

But fact is, that's not how it is. I don't "envy" AOS4, I've much better things to do in my life than be envious of the "attention from developers" AOS4 gets,

Judging from the quantity and quality of your posting on the net, that's pretty damn hard to believe.

Quote:

I'm simply a developer myself and I think I'm free to expose my opinions on the matter. When there's something good to say, I say it, when I feel there's some critics to do, I do them.

It's just suspicious how often you "Don't want to spoil the broth" and that it's always related to development on AmigaOS 4.

Quote:

Now, if you have anything meaningful to say about the issues I raised, I will gladly reply, but if your only purpose is to start a flamewar with me, I will have to stop replying to you, as I have lots of better things to do than getting dragged in a flamefest because of some fanatics.

Ah, the standard Fabio "I'm not playing anymore" reply. Shame. I was going to ask why AROS's system was so much better seeing as you brought it up.

@Uncharted

I snipped on the rest because, as said, I don't want to engage a flamebait, which you seem to be so willing to do. you should try to chill down a bit.

Quote:

Quote: Now, if you have anything meaningful to say about the issues I raised, I will gladly reply, but if your only purpose is to start a flamewar with me, I will have to stop replying to you, as I have lots of better things to do than getting dragged in a flamefest because of some fanatics. Ah, the standard Fabio "I'm not playing anymore" reply. Shame. I was going to ask why AROS's system was so much better seeing as you brought it up.

Eheh, I just said that I would reply if you sticked to the issues I raised, rather than flaming at all costs, I didn't say I wouldn't reply at all.

Unfortunately you don't seem to be willing to entartain a normal discussion, and prefer using sarcasm and slanders...

Ask all the questions you want about AROS, but do it in another thread, as I do not want to transform this thread into something it wasn't made for. If you can stick to the issues I raised, I'll answer. That's my last word.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

I agree XML can be a a slightly more visually confusing form of writing text files however it is very very easy to create other tools that write parseable XML. So fabio if you want to use a different file format you can write a conversion utility. There is therefore no problem.

Also XML is to be used everywhere in OS4 so users will be use to it after a short time (and a nice XML editor could be included)

CnlPepper - Believing this to be a very small issue at most....

@CnlPepper
Quote:

So fabio if you want to use a different file format you can write a conversion utility. There is therefore no problem.

The point is, that different file format already exists, and it's now being replaced by XML. I just don't see the point, really. Can someone please explain to me the point? I see only disadvantages, and no advantages whatsoever in doing this.

Unless, of course, I missed something, which could be the following: such xml files are only used by the tool for generating scheletons and header files (which would make sense, since it's indeed easier to write such a program using an existing xml library *), but programmers are still supposed to use SFD's.

I agree it's a minor issue, though, I was mainly interested in knowing the rationale behind this decision.

* But then I could argue that there are better formats than XML, although I agree that since XML has to be there anyway, for other reasons **, it makes sense to use it in this case too.

** Only one main reason, actually: the rest of the world uses XML, hence, doesn't matter how crappy it is, every OS is better off supporting it as well. As long as only seldom and non user-visible tasks make use of XML, everything is fine, in my opinion, but as soon as XML is used for tasks that either involve direct user interaction or tasks vital to the system and hence performed very often, I'd have to question the sanity of whoever took the decision of using XML in those cases

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@Rogue

Are you going provide the AmigaOS GCC diffs and compile instructions to the earlybirds? I'm not saying this as an GPL troll, it's just that since the "final" GCC 3.4 is likely not going to be the one on the developer CDs, I'd like to be able to compile a final version when it does come out.

@falemagn

Can you give me a link where to find one of these better data representation ? The better one in your opinion (just curious) !

IMHO, i would like to know if a binary format version i.e. a "compiled" version of the XML language exist.

@Hombre

Quote:

Hombre wrote: @falemagn Can you give me a link where to find one of these better data representation ? The better one in your opinion (just curious) !

If you just want to represent hierarchical structures, IFF will do it. I and one of the Hyperion guys have had a lenghty discussion about this topic some time ago on ANN.

The main objection to IFF is that it's not "human readable", to which one would reply that nothing is human readable as is, you always need a tool that does a certain amount of operations to let you see and modify the content of a file, be it a text editor/viewer or an IFF editor/viewer.

Then the next objection is that IFF, or any other binary representation, needs a certain amount of endianess conversions, which are deemed to be problematic and time consuming. The obvious answer to such claim, paying attention at not laughing too much for the blatant stupidity of the claim, is that endianess conversions are certainly less of a problem and much much less time consuming than binary <-> decimal (or any other kind of textual representation) conversions, not to mention that not all systems would need them, whilst all systems would need binary <-> decimal conversions.

Then, the last-resort objection is that IFF doesn't support named "chunks" and doesn't have such things as schemas. This is the only objection that makes some sense, to which, however, one would simply reply: true, so lets extend IFF to support such things.

But IFF is just an example, all in all what counts is that the requirements of fast processing and low overhead are met, and XML meets none of them.

Quote:

IMHO, i would like to know if a binary format version i.e. a "compiled" version of the XML language exist.

It does, but only for Java as of now. The concept is very simple, though, and the specifications are open. Go here, and also have a look at the benchmarks.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@falemagn

Yeah, you're right. Its the use of schemas with XML that makes sure that you have all the correct datatypes in your XML. At least that is something that you want to do with data in XML format. It would probably be overkill for what we're talking about however.

I've been working with XML for the last 4 years. I can't tell you how many business apps I've worked on that have XML configuration files. It is human readable, in the same way HTML is.

This is the Amiga's welcome to the 21st Century.

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Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@Rogue


OK. Please excuse my immense ignorance with the whole purpose of the XML file in question which is defining an interface.

I've written IDL files(Interface Definition Language) on windows for DLLs(Dynamic Link Libraries) or COM objects. Do these libraries we are talking about get linked dynamically too?

And if so, I imagine that XML include file is part of the compile and nothing to with the linking at run-time.

Or maybe I've just gone way off the tracks and exposing my ignorance here.
This is a whole new world for me.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

As far as I understand it (from Rogue's previous answers), the XML file will get read by a program that will generate C header and source files, which will then be compiled with the rest of your source code.

The idea is that you don't have to worry about generating the interface code yourself, instead you write the XML file, which is supposed to be simpler than a bunch of C code, and the special SDK program will generate the C for you. You then edit this C code to add the stuff that does all the actual work of the library.