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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 12:28:17
#121 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Yssing

Quote:
What have you been drinking??


LSD Vodka, quite a nasty one ! ;)

All the best,

D.

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BigD 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 13:53:45
#122 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4455
From: UK

@Thread

Why is there a general consensus that no new PPC chips will be forthcoming? Surely SoC AMCC chips will continue to be built? Why would they suddenly stop R&R now? Their embedded business is going well isn't it?

I don't personally think the outgoings on porting OS4.x to x86 architecture is worth it! It would no doubt bankrupt Hyperion and would not open up a vastly increased user base. I don't see people trying AmigOS 4.x on their PCs unless it was free and Hyperion would need to charge. They are better off developing AmigaOS until it has more innovative features & apps and porting it to more exotic PPC based chip like the IBM Cell and the AMCC 460EX etc.

I really don't think CPU selection has led to the current state of the Amiga market as much as licensing issues and dinosaur speed/bad business decisions from Amiga Inc.

Give Hyperion a break and if you like AmigaOS buy a Sam440EP or Flex. If not keep dreaming that Commodore was more like Wintel, but I really don't think the Amiga was ever boring enough to be a generic business machine! It would have had to have made a 040 or 060 based CD32 like games machine with 3D hardware or gone for premium market early on (instead of the PC clone market ) with heavily marketed TrueColour Graphics/internet enabled hardware like Apple eventually did to survive past 1994.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 14:19:43
#123 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1585
From: Unknown

Quote:

Why is there a general consensus that no new PPC chips will be forthcoming?

Because it is the case ?
The only PPC produced in high quantites are the one used in today's game consoles.

Other are targetted at specific markets, and are produced in such low quantity.

There's no need to talk. If you want to produce a desktop OS, you go x86. Now the price of the OS matters, but this also matters on any processor anyway. And people that today pay for a motherboard (overpriced !) *and* OS4 would also pay if it was available on the PC instead of this overpriced low speced motherboard. So what's the difference ? Actually, people would pay no matter what the motherboard would be... and history shows that: a buggy PPC board, an under-powered board,.. and would be the same for a powerfull cheap PC.

Now rewritting the OS for x86 (or any other architecture: thinking about something paltform independent, as Unix, would be a *good* idea...) represents a huge work, for sure. So what ? Either we stay in the past, either we move forward.

If that move forward was done I'd be happy to contribute, no matter if it works or fails in the end... but I don't contribute to something that's living in the past and has no potential of evolving into a fully-featured *modern* OS...

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BigD 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 14:40:42
#124 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4455
From: UK

@Leo

Quote:
Either we stay in the past, either we move forward.


A contribution from a few thousand AmigaWorld members is not enough incentive for this to get off the ground! We have the Sam, we could have faster Sam. We could have OS4.x on the PS3 of YDL PowerStation, but this x86 pipedream is not going to do us any favours!

I recently learnt that RiscOS is available to run as an emulation layer on x86. Would I try it? Answer: probably not! If I've got x86 hardware then I'm better off using Windows to get the most out of it use the most widely available drivers etc!

I don't personally own a PC and just because AmigaOs is available for PC hardware wouldn't necessarily change my mind. I have a iBook (PPC hardware), AmigaOS is NOT currently available for it! I really don't think that MANY PC hardware configurations would be supported if AmigaOS WAS ported to x86! We'd still be in a situation where we'd have to shell out for specific x86 hardware!

Some ex-Amigans would no doubt try pirated versions of OS4.x and be annoyed that it wouldn't work on their set up or was not able to play A500 games!

The future of Amiga is a Cell system with built in Minimig board, not an over ambitious x86 proting program. The way I see it, if Power PC is as dead as you say it is i.e. AMCC is doomed for bankruptcy, IBM will only sell the Cell in big volumes to TV & console manufacturers, etc then the Amiga Next-Gen is dead! There is no Apple style converting over to Intel strategy that can save us. WE HAVE TO HAVE 680xx emulation for us to be considered a next gen Amiga! The Mac has had all its major software rewritten for Universal binaries - do we have the resources to do the same - NO!!

So basically it's put up or shut up! The Sam/OS4.1 project is in its infancy and if it doesn't sell enough units I doubt AmigaOS will get to version 4.2 never mind end up on x86!!!

Seriously, these arguments are stupid. We made our bed, now sleep in it!

_________________
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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 15:00:46
#125 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9247
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Leo

Quote:
If you want to produce a desktop OS, you go x86. Now the price of the OS matters, but this also matters on any processor anyway. And people that today pay for a motherboard (overprice


That's the thing, AmigaOS isn't being "produced", it's not a new OS. It is, well, AmigaOS and what programs run on AmigaOS. Even AROS fails and falls short because although it was a "new" creation made in the image of AmigaOS, it misses out on modern POSIX compatibility AFAIK and FireFox doesn't compile straight out of the box.

Reagrdless of hardware, the funcionality of any Amiga based OS is limited if standard apps like web browsers and other useful GUI tools can't be cross compiled to work on it using the native GUI and no workarounds. Cygnix is a workaround, it works, but the apps run on a "Linux" screen and not under AmigaOS directly as they should.

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 15:10:12
#126 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9247
From: Greensborough, Australia

@BigD

Quote:
We'd still be in a situation where we'd have to shell out for specific x86 hardware!Some ex-Amigans would no doubt try pirated versions of OS4.x and be annoyed that it wouldn't work on their set up or was not able to play A500 games!


Hence my point about AROS. AROS is a good comparison because it's a real example of an Amiga-like OS. And they don't support all PC hardware, only a restricted few. It's also unreliable, one build can boot on your PC, thenext will just hang. My friend has to boot an older version, swap CD's and then reboot into the newer version. What a mess! Are there any more OS4 developers than AROS developers?

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Manu 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 18:38:05
#127 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@Hypex

It's not that hard to boot AROS. and it's not a mess. Things are getting sorted out everyday. And if only more coders would join AROS we could have them fixed faster. With AROS you can make a difference yourself. If you want you can now buy the Imica. Aros doesn't have to support every PC out there. OS4 doesn't run on every PPC board out there either does it ?

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 18:56:57
#128 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1585
From: Unknown

Quote:

We could have OS4.x on the PS3 of YDL PowerStation, but this x86 pipedream is not going to do us any favours!

What's the use of having an OS of 1985 running on a PS3 ? No memory protection, no resource tracking, no multi-processing, no 64bit, and so on...

What favour does it do ?

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QuBe 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 18:59:13
#129 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1063
From: Dunes of Uridia

@Manu

Its going to be a long long wait!

Q!

"i am home"

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 19:06:49
#130 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1585
From: Unknown

Quote:

AMCC is doomed for bankruptcy,

AMCC is working for Apple now.
Quote:

IBM will only sell the Cell in big volumes to TV & console manufacturers, etc

Isn't it what they are already doing ?
Quote:

then the Amiga Next-Gen is dead!

What next generation Amiga ? The latest Amiga was released in 93. Custom hardware doesn't exist anymore! Hello ?
Quote:

There is no Apple style converting over to Intel strategy that can save us.

Well, it's the only way.. But you have to be humble and stop spreading the stupid "ppc rulez, x86 sucks" crap...
Quote:

WE HAVE TO HAVE 680xx emulation for us to be considered a next gen Amiga!

Why is that ?
To have a next generation Amiga you first should have something that's "next generation"... And I'm sorry but rewritting for PPC an OS designed and thought in 1985 won't magically turn it into a next generation OS...
Quote:

The Mac has had all its major software rewritten for Universal binaries - do we have the resources to do the same - NO!!

You're talking about the second transition when the first one isn't finished... or hasn't even started. Apple first designed a complete new NG OS. Implemented an emulation virtual "box" because by the time there wasn't much software and a lot of users of older software (ie: millions of users).
Then they made the second one you are referring to. Universal binaries are important because there is a *huge* user base of PPC macs (ie: millions).

Now do we have millions of AmigaOS4 users ?
I don't think so.

UAE is enough to have some software... And it's supposed to be dumped later anyway... Much like OS9 legacy is now past !

It's just evolution...

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Manu 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 19:32:32
#131 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@QuBe

I don't know what which of the many waits you are refering to, but I joined in 2004 and I have waited and hoped since(5 years) for OS4 to appear on someting that I could justify spending 800 on but I finally gave up and I know I will never look back.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 20:12:30
#132 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4876
From: New Zealand

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

We could have OS4.x on the PS3 of YDL PowerStation, but this x86 pipedream is not going to do us any favours!

What's the use of having an OS of 1985 running on a PS3 ? No memory protection, no resource tracking, no multi-processing, no 64bit, and so on...

What favour does it do ?


You're looking at it the wrong way. We wouldn't not doing Sony or the PS3 any favours by running OS4 on the PS3; it would give us Amiga OS 4.x users much more powerful hardware than we currently have. It would give people who would like to try out Amiga OS 4.x plenty of hardware to try it out on.

@all

Threads like these are kind of pointless really. Only Hyperion knows what resources they have available for Amiga OS; only they know how much they are likely to achieve with those resources. They have a business plan, and they have most likely already decided what hardware they will be targeting next.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 21-Mar-2009 at 08:13 PM.

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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BigD 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 20:41:05
#133 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4455
From: UK

@Hans

Quote:
You're looking at it the wrong way. We wouldn't not doing Sony or the PS3 any favours by running OS4 on the PS3; it would give us Amiga OS 4.x users much more powerful hardware than we currently have. It would give people who would like to try out Amiga OS 4.x plenty of hardware to try it out on.


That's the point. Ex-Amiga owners are likely to have consoles now (maybe the PS3) and as the PS3 only runs Linux, I think people might be interested in running OS4.x instead! Giving it a go! And checking out the A500 emulation for sure - so the JIT emulation must be good!

I don't see x86 owners necessarily giving it a go! Plus there's to much choice already on the PC!

The PS3 is the better option for ex-Amigans and current users wanting more power!

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bison 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 20:50:38
#134 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1143
From: N-Space

@BigD

Quote:
Seriously, these arguments are stupid. We made our bed, now sleep in it!

Well, Amiga Inc. made their bed, but I didn't climb in!

The Amiga intellectual property has to pass on to a new owner before any significant progress can be made.

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bison 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 20:55:03
#135 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 1143
From: N-Space

@Leo

Quote:
And I'm sorry but rewritting for PPC an OS designed and thought in 1985 won't magically turn it into a next generation OS...

Yep. Most people can get by with a pretty basic OS: no virtual memory, no journaling file system, etc. But memory protection is a necessity, and their's no way to just "bolt" this on to Amiga OS, due to its user mode jump table based system call implementation. It needs a complete rewrite.

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Rob 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 21:50:23
#136 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5712
From: S.Wales

@Leo

Quote:
AMCC is working for Apple now.


Are you getting mixed up with Apple's acquisition of P.A. Semi. The only connection I could find between the find between the two companies was that a few years ago AMCC made RAID solution that was compatible with Apple's G5 workstations.

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whatelse 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 21:57:55
#137 ]
Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2008
Posts: 12
From: Germany

@eXec
this discussion is a waste of time.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 22:27:21
#138 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1585
From: Unknown

Quote:

It would give people who would like to try out Amiga OS 4.x plenty of hardware to try it out on.

~150 Millions x86 computers are sold each year, ~2-3 millions PS3 are sold each year... Again, if there is plenty of hardware to try it on, it's PC...

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 0:02:40
#139 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4876
From: New Zealand

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

It would give people who would like to try out Amiga OS 4.x plenty of hardware to try it out on.

~150 Millions x86 computers are sold each year, ~2-3 millions PS3 are sold each year... Again, if there is plenty of hardware to try it on, it's PC...


True, there are millions more x86 PCs sold each year than PS3s. What's missing are the resources to port the OS to x86 in a reasonable time-frame without going bankrupt in the mean-time. The PS3, on the other hand, uses an PowerPC processor, which would make a port much easier and quicker. There are more than enough PS3s to go around.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 22-Mar-2009 at 12:08 AM.
Last edited by Hans on 22-Mar-2009 at 12:05 AM.

_________________
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BigD 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 0:12:49
#140 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4455
From: UK

@Hans

Quote:
The PS3, on the other hand, uses an PowerPC processor, which would make a port much easier and quicker. There are more than enough PS3s to go around.


I also think PS3 owners are more likely to try a PS3 build of AmigaOS than your average PC owner.

1) PS3 Owners are rich gamers, and twenty-something+ - they remember the Amiga and probably have fond memories of the A500, Psygnosis (Sony Liverpool) and Team17(about to release a new Alien Breed for download) & Stardust (HD version on PS3).

2) PC owners are generally dimisive of the benefits of the Classic Amiga and AROS is not looked on favourably by the computer press (Micromart comparison of alternative x86 operating sysrems).

Last edited by BigD on 22-Mar-2009 at 12:14 AM.

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