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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 20:32:11
#201 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4842
From: New Zealand

@VidarL

Quote:

VidarL wrote:
@Hyperionmp

Quote:

And no, it's not a port to x86, that would not be "ambitious".


No, but it would be the sensible thing to do..

No, it wouldn't be.

Quote:
You've said before that an x86 port would require too many resources, but now you're trying to something even more ambitious.. Call me sceptical, but you haven't shown that you can deliver anything ambitious within a reasonable timeframe. And your bet on PPC hasn't exactly paid off, has it?

I don't remember Hyperionmp ever saying that; I did say that myself, but then I'm not Hyperionmp. Also, I'm not sure that the decision to go PowerPC was their's either.

Quote:
While the OS4/OS4.1 projects produced decent results, it took WAY too long. What has changed that will enable you to deliver your most abitious project to date in a timely maner?


And now you want to wait much longer?

Quote:
And without any details, it's just words. Show us some real plans of what you want to achieve and how you intend to achieve it, or please keep silent. We've had enough of the "believe in us" crap in the last decade.


Businesses don't give out business plans to the public.

Hans

_________________
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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 20:46:08
#202 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Hans

Quote:

Whether it would work or not isn't really an issue. I'm sure that it would be quite good; definitely better than AGA. However, the development time and effort required is rather big for what you get in return. The costs of development vs. developing something else do not stack up in its favour, at least in my opinion.


Fair enough. If the Picasso96 DDK were available without an NDA and compatible with GPL, it wouldn't be an issue.

Then again, there are millions of PS3 systems out there, and you can pick one up from any electronics store. If Hyperion marketed a port properly, they could certainly recover the costs. They could even resell PS3 systems, either directly or through third parties, depending on the target market. Linux and HPC vendors do it, why not Hyperion? OS4 itself would have to be compelling enough to make it work, though, and that means an SPE library for parallel processing. From my perspective, that's the real barrier to entry.

Last edited by Trev on 22-Mar-2009 at 08:51 PM.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:01:53
#203 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Hans

Quote:

Businesses don't give out business plans to the public


That's the problem with the Amiga community--everyone thinks they own a piece of it. However, anyone committing to Hyperion's products on a large scale, i.e. an industrial automation firm, would need some assurances that Hyperion itself is sustainable. In a sense, customers are no different. Why buy into an operating system if there's no reason to believe you'll receive future support?

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:06:10
#204 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 705
From: Arizona

@Hans

The people on here pointing out why a port to x86 CAN'T happen all use the same lame argument. They constantly say the endianess issues can't be overcome, yet they ignore that OSX moved from PPC to x86 and the endian issues were resolved. They sound like a bunch of parrots who only know one phrase and keep stating that endianess or the inability to overcome endianess is fact. It isn't fact. These very same people also swore that OS4 would never be ported to the PegII for issues revolving around NIC and OpenFirmware drivers. Well, they were proven wrong there too. And I never said that porting OS4 to x86 would be quick, painless or cheap. I did point out that Michal Schulz ported AROS from x86 to PPC in his spare time and overcame many of the same issues that the "parrots" on this board keep repeating. And it took Michal a matter of months on his own to complete the port. I would expect that Hyperion could do the same since they have more than one programmer at their disposal, provided that Hyperion WANTS to port OS4, which they may or may not.

Hyperion can continue to seek out overpriced and inferior architectures to support such as PPC to increase their hardware base quickly, but that means they've chosen to confine themselves to a very small base of hobby users, and hence low-volume sales/revenue. That won't keep the lights on for very long because most of the hobby users who can afford to buy a SAM have already done so. Nor will it provide enough revenue to keep any further development going. No bank would support such a venture. They would support a business plan based on a sound strategy which showed future growth, and the PPC line isn't it. PPC is the end of the line for Amiga as we know it. People can keep clinging to "console dreams" or their false beliefs that endianess can't be overcome. That won't pay any bills either. AmigaOS will have to move to something new soon.

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VidarL 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:07:59
#205 ]
Member
Joined: 16-May-2003
Posts: 75
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
Businesses don't give out business plans to the public.


No one is talking about the whole business plan, but it is normal for product companies to provide a roadmap(with estimated dates) and provide some details surrounding the roadmap.

Vidar

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VidarL 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:09:40
#206 ]
Member
Joined: 16-May-2003
Posts: 75
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Well said!

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VidarL 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:21:01
#207 ]
Member
Joined: 16-May-2003
Posts: 75
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:

Quote:

While the OS4/OS4.1 projects produced decent results, it took WAY too long. What has changed that will enable you to deliver your most abitious project to date in a timely maner?


And now you want to wait much longer?


Who says anything about waiting much longer? The Friedens have estimated an x86 port to take ~6 months. This of course depends on the route taken towards an x86 version. It could be quicker if Umilator is used as the basis(even though it appears to be a bit out of date according to Bernd Meyer), or it could take longer if they added memory protection and other much needed features at the same time.

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:23:05
#208 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 705
From: Arizona

@Metalheart

Why would you need a "sandbox" for 68k applications? Just use UAE.

Actually programming across the various Amiga platforms isn't that bad. I wouldn't call it a mess at all. Have you used AmiDevc++ ? It's a great cross-compiler and most of my code can be compiled with no changes to run on MorphOS, AROS, 68K and OS4. But I agree that people should move on and use newer operating systems and quit whining that 68k backward compatibility has to be maintained. Apple dropped it and so should Amiga.

These very same issues you're talking about are the same ones that Apple and their userbase encountered when the switch to x86 was made.

And the old saying comes to mind, you get what you pay for. If some users are too cheap to buy new hardware and software, then they shouldn't complain. That's like my great-grandmother complaining that her Model T Ford is too slow for today's highways and that she can't find anyone who knows how to repair it but she's too cheap to buy a new car. The times change......

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:36:17
#209 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

Quote:

I personally think that Hyperion's bet bet is to get it working on more hardware, quickly. That last word (in bold) is the key; an x86 port would NOT be quickly.

You can quickly port it to any hardware you want, it won't magically sell ouside Amiga fans.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:38:56
#210 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

You can port it to PS3 as well... There are millions of PS3 users, true: either movie watchers and/or gamers.

Give me one reason why they would pay 120 euros for running a 15 years old OS on their TV...

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:42:19
#211 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 705
From: Arizona

@Leo

Well said Leo.

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:48:04
#212 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4842
From: New Zealand

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@Hans

The people on here pointing out why a port to x86 CAN'T happen all use the same lame argument. They constantly say the endianess issues can't be overcome, yet they ignore that OSX moved from PPC to x86 and the endian issues were resolved. They sound like a bunch of parrots who only know one phrase and keep stating that endianess or the inability to overcome endianess is fact. It isn't fact. These very same people also swore that OS4 would never be ported to the PegII for issues revolving around NIC and OpenFirmware drivers. Well, they were proven wrong there too. And I never said that porting OS4 to x86 would be quick, painless or cheap. I did point out that Michal Schulz ported AROS from x86 to PPC in his spare time and overcame many of the same issues that the "parrots" on this board keep repeating. And it took Michal a matter of months on his own to complete the port. I would expect that Hyperion could do the same since they have more than one programmer at their disposal, provided that Hyperion WANTS to port OS4, which they may or may not.


Sigh. In case you haven't noticed it, Apple has a lot more money and developers than we do. And stop bringing up Michal's port. I have told you time and time again why Michal had a much easier job doing that port than the task of porting OS4 to x86, and yet, you keep on repeating it.

BTW, I never said anything about a PegII port not being possible/feasible, but I am saying that an x86 port isn't a good idea.

Quote:
Hyperion can continue to seek out overpriced and inferior architectures to support such as PPC to increase their hardware base quickly, but that means they've chosen to confine themselves to a very small base of hobby users, and hence low-volume sales/revenue. That won't keep the lights on for very long because most of the hobby users who can afford to buy a SAM have already done so. Nor will it provide enough revenue to keep any further development going. No bank would support such a venture. They would support a business plan based on a sound strategy which showed future growth, and the PPC line isn't it.


I don't see people flocking to buy OS 4 if it were on x86 either. It would still be hobby users. In the mean time, gaining access to those extra users would have taken a significant amount of resources and time that could have been spent on other things, such as enhancing the OS.

Quote:
PPC is the end of the line for Amiga as we know it. People can keep clinging to "console dreams" or their false beliefs that endianess can't be overcome. That won't pay any bills either. AmigaOS will have to move to something new soon.


I should point out that I'm not one of those people that thinks that the endianness can't be overcome. I have no "console dreams" either. I just think that the available resources can be better spent doing something else.

Hans

_________________
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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:50:12
#213 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4842
From: New Zealand

@VidarL

Quote:

VidarL wrote:
@Hans
Quote:

And now you want to wait much longer?


Who says anything about waiting much longer? The Friedens have estimated an x86 port to take ~6 months. This of course depends on the route taken towards an x86 version. It could be quicker if Umilator is used as the basis(even though it appears to be a bit out of date according to Bernd Meyer), or it could take longer if they added memory protection and other much needed features at the same time.


Where and when did they say that? Got a link? Would that include the ability to run existing software too? Or would we be stuck with an OS that has zero apps?

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 22-Mar-2009 at 09:50 PM.

_________________
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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:52:39
#214 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@ferrels

If only Hyperion could fund OS4 development with the profits from iPod sales.

On a side note, I don't have a Model T, but I do have a Model A. With the right transmission, it keeps up on today's highways just fine.

I still think that OS4 needs more than just a platform change. The technology behind OS4 was state of the art in 1985. The changes made by Hyperion and others have brought the system up to circa 1997, a little better if you include the support for Radeon (sadly, still on outdated cards) and Cairo (which I believe probably uses code borrowed from the AROS port--the timing was highly suspicious).

None of this, however, prevents anyone from continuing to have fun developing for and using OS4. The only real problem is the cost of entry.

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:53:14
#215 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4842
From: New Zealand

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

I personally think that Hyperion's bet bet is to get it working on more hardware, quickly. That last word (in bold) is the key; an x86 port would NOT be quickly.

You can quickly port it to any hardware you want, it won't magically sell ouside Amiga fans.


And would it magically sell "ouside Amiga fans" (sic.) if a time consuming port to x86 were done?

Hans

_________________
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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 21:58:29
#216 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

Quote:

And would it magically sell "ouside Amiga fans" (sic.) if a time consuming port to x86 were done?

Of course not. You have to write something new, modern, and give people a reason to buy it... You could also give it for free (I would), but this wouldn't make them magically use it (see AROS indeed).

It's clearly the end of line, both for the current old OS architecture, and for the PPC.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 22:01:11
#217 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Hans

Quote:

And would it magically sell "ouside Amiga fans" (sic.) if a time consuming port to x86 were done?


No, but we *need* support for stone circle-based systems if we want druids and leprechauns to adopt OS4. And we could get Spinal Tap to promote it. Aww yeah.

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 22:05:17
#218 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 705
From: Arizona

@Hans

I think we are in violent agreement on most points! LOL

The only area where I disagree with you is in the area where I believe Hyperion should focus their efforts and resources if they want AOS to have a long-term future. Eventually, all the SAMs, PegIIs and A1s will fail and there won't be any way to replace them. If Hyperion continues to focus only on OS4 enhancements and bug-fixes, they'll end up with one highly polished OS that no one can use because there won't be any systems left to run it on.

An yes, Apple has many more resources at their disposal than Hyperion. No one would argue that point. I want very much to see Hyperion succeed and grow and I also want AOS, no matter what CPU is used, to have a long and viable future. I was probably one of the first to buy a copy of OS4 for the PegII when it was released. But even then, my PegII had been in storage for two years because it simply couldn't keep up with more current hardware.

I also agree that I don't see people flocking to buy OS4 if it were ported to x86, but at least x86 will be around longer than PPC. PPC is taking its last gasp even now.

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 22:16:36
#219 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4842
From: New Zealand

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@Hans

I think we are in violent agreement on most points! LOL

I agree.

Quote:
The only area where I disagree with you is in the area where I believe Hyperion should focus their efforts and resources if they want AOS to have a long-term future. Eventually, all the SAMs, PegIIs and A1s will fail and there won't be any way to replace them. If Hyperion continues to focus only on OS4 enhancements and bug-fixes, they'll end up with one highly polished OS that no one can use because there won't be any systems left to run it on.

True, that is a possible issue, but I don't see PowerPC just disappearing overnight. I have no idea what ACube are working on at the moment, but I'd expect them to be working on another board.

I'd also expect to see an ARM port before an x86 port just because I think that it would be easier to do than x86. ARM processors are sold in huge quantities; just not in desktops.

We'll have to wait and see what this ambitious project of theirs is; I hope that it's good.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 22:25:12
#220 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 705
From: Arizona

@Trev

Yes, I agree that OS4 needs more than just a port to a new architecture. OS4 has serious deficiencies in the areas of javascript, 3D graphics, h.264, and the lack of a decent office suite. And I also agree that the cost of entry is too high....exploitive if you ask me for what one gets in return for his money.

I wonder if the MorphOS boys are planning to use a new CPU any time soon?

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