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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 22:28:17
#221 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 705
From: Arizona

@Hans

Yes, I'm anxious to see what Hyperion is working on too. I was totally surprised when they announced support for PegII, pleasantly so. I hope that the next surprise is even better!

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tonyw 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 22:31:37
#222 ]
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Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3132
From: Sydney (of course)

Can any of the X86 parrots name ONE (just one) X86 motherboard that is available with any programming documentation? The motherboard manufacturers don't release their info to anyone, so how on earth would Hyperion be able to port OS4 to any X86 motherboard?

And, as Rogue has said many times, the existence of a Linux or other open-source port is NOT the manufacturer support that they would need.

Last edited by tonyw on 22-Mar-2009 at 10:33 PM.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 22:34:18
#223 ]
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Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@ferrels

I think work is taking place re: 3D graphics, but those other things are the responsiblity of application developers, not Hyperion. I was referring to kernel and operating environment features--modern synchronization primitives, memory protection, etc.

At the time of its release, the Amiga 1000 and Kickstart/Workbench brought workstation-like features to consumers at an amazing price. As a consumer, I'd be happy if OS4 did just one of those things. At the moment, it's doing neither. Where's my transactional memory? Where's my relational file system? Where's my [insert bleeding edge computer science buzzword here]? As a hobbyist, I'm still having a blast on my classic systems, though.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 22:39:11
#224 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@tonyw

Almost every x86 motherboard on the market uses off the shelf parts, e.g. chipsets from NVIDIA or Intel, NICs from Marvell or Intel, etc. But I agree that Hyperion would have a tough go of it. Hardware vendors do most of the work certifying their devices for Windows. I have a feeling it's not so much an issue of resources or knowledge within Hyperion (there has to be some x86 knowledge there to port games from the platform) as it is hardware vendors completely ignoring Hyperion's inquiries.

Regardless, you're sort of overlooking the fact that the x86 platform is everywhere because every board supports PC BIOS interfaces (and now/soon EFI) for basic access to hardware. We can all thank IBM for that.

Last edited by Trev on 22-Mar-2009 at 10:55 PM.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 22:42:06
#225 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Trev

And to myself, it would be cool, fun, etc. to see OS4 running on an ARM-based board from the One Laptop Per Child project.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 22:57:58
#226 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Hans

Quote:
Remember how development slowed down at one point because they needed to do other work that brought in money?

I honestly don't know where their money has been coming from. However, I don't think that doing something that would delay getting a return on all that OS4 work for another few years would make much business sense.


Just quoting because many seem to be entirely overlooking this, and seem to think we're all instead arguing over a basic port, or endianness, vs 'the big picture, including finances and resources.'

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 23:02:00
#227 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Trev

Quote:
Then again, there are millions of PS3 systems out there, and you can pick one up from any electronics store. If Hyperion marketed a port properly, they could certainly recover the costs. They could even resell PS3 systems, either directly or through third parties, depending on the target market. Linux and HPC vendors do it, why not Hyperion? OS4 itself would have to be compelling enough to make it work, though, and that means an SPE library for parallel processing. From my perspective, that's the real barrier to entry.


Well, there's certainly a resource issue there, and may be others, like selling a commercial OS on the PS3. Totally unknown on that point - I'd *like* to see it, myself, but the court case still ongoing, as well as funding *may* be what's preventing that. We don't know.

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DrBombcrater 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 23:04:41
#228 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@tonyw

Quote:
Can any of the X86 parrots name ONE (just one) X86 motherboard that is available with any programming documentation? The motherboard manufacturers don't release their info to anyone, so how on earth would Hyperion be able to port OS4 to any X86 motherboard?

None of the hardware on an x86 motherboard is designed by the board manufacturer, it's all standard off-the-shelf parts. There are a few companies that are very secretive about their hardware and won't release documentation (NVidia, for example) but most will. AMD does, Intel does, VIA does. And for much of the hardware there are pre-defined compatibility modes anyway, so documentation isn't always necessary. USB, SATA, IDE, etc, all adhere to published standards that can be used to create a 'class' driver that will cope with all or almost all hardware of that type.

Anyone using the tired old argument that an x86 OS4 wouldn't work because it's impossible to support enough of the hardware on x86 boards is a) wrong, and b) completely missing the point that one mainstream x86 board would still be orders of magnitude better than any even remotely affordable custom PPC board.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 23:06:29
#229 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@ferrels

Quote:
The people on here pointing out why a port to x86 CAN'T happen all use the same lame argument. They constantly say the endianess issues can't be overcome, yet they ignore that OSX moved from PPC to x86 and the endian issues were resolved. They sound like a bunch of parrots who only know one phrase and keep stating that endianess or the inability to overcome endianess is fact. It isn't fact.


I think you're the one using the same lame argument, but worse, without actually re-reading what's been posted. Neither Hans, Rigo, myself or others have brought up the endianness issues as a real 'show-stopper,' but there are resource issues as well as $ to consider, and whatever Hyperions' business plan may be.

It's also been pointed out it is not the same as porting AROS to a new platform at this point. My numbers may or may not have been inflated, but OS4 would need a new JIT as well, and any business expects a return on their investment, as well as hopefully something aligning with their own plans as well as finances.

I'd *like* to see OS4 on x86. I'd like it on my MacBook, please. And an Ibook. But, because I'd like, doesn't alter reality making it an 'obvious plan' for Hyperion to pursue. Nor does perhaps a few thousand sales with the current OS functionality - and it's certainly their right to determine where to go next, you acting like a few hundred OS4 users (and worse, those NOT OS4 users) will somehow 'make a market,' justifying the expenses and time involved, when it simply may not be the case.

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Cheese 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 23:10:53
#230 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 217
From: Unknown

@DrBombcrater

Quote:
Anyone using the tired old argument that an x86 OS4 wouldn't work because it's impossible to support enough of the hardware on x86 boards is a) wrong, and b) completely missing the point that one mainstream x86 board would still be orders of magnitude better than any even remotely affordable custom PPC board.


...but who will code the necessary drivers and such? Given the current amount of interested and capable amiga coders, it sounds pretty impossible to support to me

Last edited by Cheese on 22-Mar-2009 at 11:13 PM.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 23:13:03
#231 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@Trev

Yes, I agree that OS4 needs more than just a port to a new architecture. OS4 has serious deficiencies in the areas of javascript, 3D graphics, h.264, and the lack of a decent office suite. And I also agree that the cost of entry is too high....exploitive if you ask me for what one gets in return for his money.

I wonder if the MorphOS boys are planning to use a new CPU any time soon?


Nothing public, anyways, AFAIK...

Again, it really comes down to resources vs benefit. Without knowing what Hyperion has planned (and sadly, we do not, if we want to or not), while most of us really would like OS4 on x86, right now, it may not be the right time for several reasons.

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DrBombcrater 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 23:14:50
#232 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@Hans

Quote:
I'd also expect to see an ARM port before an x86 port just because I think that it would be easier to do than x86. ARM processors are sold in huge quantities; just not in desktops.

An ARM port would very much be a good thing (strange as that comment may sound from someone as pro-x86 as me). ARM wouldn't solve the performance deficit to x86 but at least it has a future because it is specifically designed to target markets where x86 cannot currently go. PowerPC is dying because it failed to compete with x86 on performance and with ARM on power use and ease of cutomisation. There's almost no niche left for it to hide in now.

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DrBombcrater 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 23:18:44
#233 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@Cheese

Quote:
...but who will code the necessary drivers and such? Given the current amount of interested and capable amiga coders, it sounds pretty impossible to support to me

Any new hardware will need drivers written, no matter if its x86, PPC, ARM, or something else. I suspect there are a few coders like me who have the skills to write drivers and hang around the peripheries of the Amiga world but won't get involved doing any actual work because the PPC platform is a dead end and it would be a waste of time.

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opi 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 23:31:56
#234 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@tonyw

Quote:
And, as Rogue has said many times, the existence of a Linux or other open-source port is NOT the manufacturer support that they would need.


Not only that! Port for Apple HW can't be made because it lacks of documentation, too!

Oh wait, there's MorphOS port comming and AmigaOS 4.x port that was canned.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 22-Mar-2009 23:50:37
#235 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

Quote:

Can any of the X86 parrots name ONE (just one) X86 motherboard that is available with any programming documentation?

Can any of the PS3 parrots tell me where I can find the programmning documentation of the PS3 motherboard ?

Last edited by Leo on 22-Mar-2009 at 11:52 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 22-Mar-2009 at 11:51 PM.

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walter 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 0:29:16
#236 ]
Member
Joined: 12-Apr-2004
Posts: 52
From: Takoma Park, MD, USA

Hyperionmp said:
Quote:
Please re-read the press-release issued when Hyperion relaunched its website:

"Hyperion Entertainment wishes to thank its loyal customer-base for its continued support as it embarks on its most ambitious project to date - watch this space for further information."

And no, it's not a port to x86, that would not be "ambitious".

I suspect a robust, quick port to x86, combined with a manufacturing/marketing partnership
that enlarged the user base and made a profit, would be ambitious, but...

I bet it ain't a desktop project at all. A reliable, complete cellphone OS would be
darned ambitious.

The deal-making and bizness stuff required to get OS4 on to somebody else's mass marketed
device (phone, ebook, GPS, console, STB, inflatable-object-of-affection, Idono) would be
pretty impressive too.

Again:Quote:
as it embarks on

Does that mean they were just getting started on the project when the website went up?
Could be a while before we hear a muffled peep.

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 0:52:32
#237 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 705
From: Arizona

@Leo

Thank God! Someone in this thread finally has a sense of humor!

It really is beginning to resemble a bunch of raucous, squawking parrots in here.

Let me know if any PS3 or game console parrots even bother to answer your question. I'm betting they won't since Nintendo and PS3 systems are closed systems requiring licensing. Sony and Nintendo want a cut of every game sold for their systems and aren't about to open them up to the world. It costs a fortune for the development packages for these consoles, signing a non-disclosure agreement, and agreeing to pay a license fee for every game/application you write and sell. This model would never work for AmigaOS. The user base is just too small to cover development costs and license fees.

And we all know that Yellow Dog Linux runs on the PS3 but it is crippled because it doesn't have access to the PS3s 3D graphics capabilities for the same reasons mentioned above.

Maybe now the console parrots will quit squawking!

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Rob 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 3:08:20
#238 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5650
From: S.Wales

@ferrels

Quote:
It really is beginning to resemble a bunch of raucous, squawking parrots in here.


Pieces of 80x86, pieces of 80x86.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 4:20:30
#239 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Leo/@ferrels

Is parrot the latest pundit safeword? What happened to apologist? All I see are a group of consumers voicing their desires. The parrot nonsense hearkens back to the days of adolescence and responses equivalent to "Yeah? Well you're stupid!"

Re: PS3 hardware documentation, no you're not likely to find legitimate documentation outside Sony's licensed development kits; however, documentation for the PS3's hypervisor is readily available. If it happens to be in a language you can't read, whether it's English, French, German, C, or SPE assembly, well, that's your problem, right? And if you can't teach yourself, many universities now offer Cell/BE development courses based on the PS3. Besides, who needs documentation? Real men reverse engineer.

Assuming the Amiga, Inc. contracts are out of the picture, no one but Hyperion is stopping Hyperion from porting OS4 to the PS3 or any other platform.

EDIT:

Quote:

And we all know that Yellow Dog Linux runs on the PS3 but it is crippled because it doesn't have access to the PS3s 3D graphics capabilities for the same reasons mentioned above.


"Crippled" is entirely subjective. Obviously, Sony doesn't unlicensed or "free" games that rival or better their price-fixed (as opposed to fixed-price) counterparts. Dog save us all re: Blu-Ray. We'll all be paying Sony licensing fees for the next fifteen years.

Last edited by Trev on 23-Mar-2009 at 04:24 AM.
Last edited by Trev on 23-Mar-2009 at 04:24 AM.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 5:02:47
#240 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

@Trev

The same goes for x86. That was my point...

@ferrels: yeah, you're right about that, but the first problem is that's it's a game console/movie player anyway... So where does AmigaOS fit in here ? Especially knowing the high price of the machine, how are you going to make people spend an extra 120E for something that won't be hardware-accelerated because Sony doesn't want you to take advantage of it (and they are damn right since it would then come into competition with their own software, which is their main source of income :))

So from the start this cannot work, not mentionning any technical difficulties/nonsenses... which are also there. And not mentionning the fact that Sony would lock down its console if this started working anyway: by developing an OS, you have to choose hardware that's kinda opened to foreign OS and not regulated in any way. And again x86 is perfect for that. Consoles (and phones, if that's what the "ambitious" project is about) are locked hardware, and we all no why: companies loose money by selling it at low price... allowing third party OS/Applications is a direct risk to their own business, do you really think they would allow that ?

Last edited by Leo on 23-Mar-2009 at 05:05 AM.

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