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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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KimmoK 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 9:02:17
#241 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5101
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@anyone

How fast is emulated PowerPC on a ~3Ghz Core2 with 6Mb L2 cache?

Does PPC-JIT exist yet for x86 CPUs?


How fast is 68k JIT on a ~3Ghz Core2 with 6Mb L2 cache?

Would it be sane to port AOS4 to emulated 68k?

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 9:30:11
#242 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
[quote]
I personally think that Hyperion's bet bet is to get it working on more hardware, quickly. That last word (in bold) is the key; an x86 port would NOT be quickly.

You can quickly port it to any hardware you want, it won't magically sell ouside Amiga fans.


And would it magically sell "ouside Amiga fans" (sic.) if a time consuming port to x86 were done?

Hans
[/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. It's hardly selling now, are they making much money? I know the hardware isnt' usefull to a lot of people. If it were on a hardware base that was vastly supported, easy to manufacture for, parts were as easy as you local computer store, cheap, maybe people would.

Non mainstream Hardware is a bad choice for increasing your user base esp when that H/W is so few and far between that no one realy knows about it or can see any reason for porting stuff to it. I maen, it's underpowered, expensive and low volume. Why would that be good to develop a program or hardware for. I don't see more users being attracted to that.

At the moment your argument is AMIGA only fans are the only ones going to buy AMIGA OS, when clearly, AMIGA fans are saying, they are not going to buy it, they don't want to develop for it because it's too slow and expensive. Seems to me that you just argued to get LESS AMIGA fans.
Unless those reducing fans are vastly wealthy have a lot of time to wait for new products that have slower performance and do less cause that's what we are talking about here.
I quite frankly are amazed there is still any development.

Even Dave Haynie (ex AMIGA designer) said x86 would be the way now and that was yeas ago.

Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 09:41 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 09:31 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 09:31 AM.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 9:37:31
#243 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@ferrels

Quote:
Hyperion can continue to seek out overpriced and inferior architectures to support such as PPC to increase their hardware base quickly, but that means they've chosen to confine themselves to a very small base of hobby users, and hence low-volume sales/revenue. That won't keep the lights on for very long because most of the hobby users who can afford to buy a SAM have already done so. Nor will it provide enough revenue to keep any further development going. No bank would support such a venture. They would support a business plan based on a sound strategy which showed future growth, and the PPC line isn't it. PPC is the end of the line for Amiga as we know it. People can keep clinging to "console dreams" or their false beliefs that endianess can't be overcome. That won't pay any bills either. AmigaOS will have to move to something new soon.




Yeah!!

That`s the thing I am talking the whole time about! Even there are mean people out here
who are spitting onto any constructive idea and forcing their own perception of distorted
reality, the basic facts remain themselves, even it is embarrassing to some, self called
- "elite" members.


All the best,

D.


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Hammer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 9:43:24
#244 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3928
From: Australia

@KimmoK

Quote:
Does PPC-JIT exist yet for x86 CPUs?


There are two free usable PowerPC based emulators for X86/X64 PCs i.e.
1. Dolphin Nintendo GameCube/Wii emulator.
2. PearPC-JIT "new world" PowerMacintosh emulator.

PearPC-JIT is practically pointless (unless if you are developing PowerPC embedded devices) since Apple released MacOS X for X86.

From memory, PearPC-JIT 0.4pre amd MacOS X 10.2 was quite usable on AMD Mobile Athlon 64 3000+(1.8Ghz). I haven't set-up PearPC on any of my Core 2 machines.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 9:44:36
#245 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@ferrels

Quote:
I also agree that I don't see people flocking to buy OS4 if it were ported to x86, but at least x86 will be around longer than PPC. PPC is taking its last gasp even now


Yep, in desktop versions it has it`s leading future for the next decade... Specially wit the
upcoming Larabe integration... It looks promising... Too bad that some "elite" people
can`t see it... But i am sure by the time those technologies become mass produced and
available we`ll see the posts -"Oh, how cool would it be if we only could have it
supported" ... ;)


All the best,

D.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 9:47:52
#246 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@tonyw

Quote:
Can any of the X86 parrots name ONE (just one) X86 motherboard that is available with any programming documentation?


There are Intel dev. boards....


All the best,

D.

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Hammer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 9:48:18
#247 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3928
From: Australia

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

Can any of the X86 parrots name ONE (just one) X86 motherboard that is available with any programming documentation?

Can any of the PS3 parrots tell me where I can find the programmning documentation of the PS3 motherboard ?

Good luck in breaching PS3’s hypervisor. The closest you get to NVIDIA RSX GPU is via NVIDIA’s LibCGM i.e. think of NVAPI or CUDA for NVIDIA G70 type GPU.

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Hammer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 9:51:58
#248 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3928
From: Australia

@tonyw

Quote:

tonyw wrote:
Can any of the X86 parrots name ONE (just one) X86 motherboard that is available with any programming documentation? The motherboard manufacturers don't release their info to anyone, so how on earth would Hyperion be able to port OS4 to any X86 motherboard?

And, as Rogue has said many times, the existence of a Linux or other open-source port is NOT the manufacturer support that they would need.

First, contact Intel or AMD, not mainboard manufactures. Intel or AMD governs/leads/dicates the hardware X86 clone army.

Last edited by Hammer on 23-Mar-2009 at 09:59 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 9:54:58
#249 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3928
From: Australia

Quote:

eXec wrote:
@tonyw

Quote:
Can any of the X86 parrots name ONE (just one) X86 motherboard that is available with any programming documentation?


There are Intel dev. boards....

All the best,

D.

Intel reference mainboards are manufactured by …. Foxconn.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 9:59:18
#250 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

Can any of the X86 parrots name ONE (just one) X86 motherboard that is available with any programming documentation?

Can any of the PS3 parrots tell me where I can find the programmning documentation of the PS3 motherboard ?


*squark (sorry my parrot is still bad).

There is plenty of documentation on the Internet on how to program for x86 platforms. PCI and PCI express and countless chipset designs are all made for the x86 platform and will continue to evolve and get better because there is a huge userbase for them.

Linux is free distro Ubuntu has heaps of code available for D/L with HAL documentation etc. how do you think they made the OS work on x86?
Regardless, there is plenty of information on how to get it to interface. Heck even the pre-boot code (initalization) for current AMIGA Hw is x86 from memory. It's no longer going to be some engineer has a brainwave of how to make a better PC on re-designed non x86 platforms. They are already doing it(creating new hardware) for an extensivly supported platform that just happens to use the x86 code base. It's cheaper for them to improve their products or invent new ones on and unless you have billions, I doubt u will re-invent the wheel now.

Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 10:03 AM.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 10:03:47
#251 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Trev

Quote:
@Leo/@ferrels Is parrot the latest pundit safeword? What happened to apologist? All I see are a group of consumers voicing their desires. The parrot nonsense hearkens back to the days of adolescence and responses equivalent to "Yeah? Well you're stupid!"


There is hope that someone points onto a mass insulting machinery of those who's
world view incompatibility ends up with those defamatory substantives.

Although a few, but the well mannered people do exist, indeed...
For those that walk on the other side of decency and solidarity with
other people˙s opinions and suggestions - a few extra hours of suavity repetition
would not be a bad idea at all...


All the best,

D.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 10:08:29
#252 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Hammer

Quote:
Intel reference mainboards are manufactured by …. Foxconn.


The point of my post was that they are available...



All the best,

D.

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SpaceDruid 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 10:15:10
#253 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2007
Posts: 1748
From: Inside the mind of a cow on a planet that's flying through space at 242.334765 miles per second.

@Hans

Quote:

And would it magically sell "ouside Amiga fans" (sic.) if a time consuming port to x86 were done?


In addtion to what SHADES said, heres my hat thrown into the ring.

I brought around 30 or so friends into the world of Amiga from non computer backgrounds. They all had to move onto other platforms when their hardware died out or they found they hit a brick wall with the Amiga capabilities.

Recently, I've been showing them vids on youtube of OS4 doing its thing and all of them got as exicted as I did and asked when they could get hold of it. After explaining the rather complex reason why they'd have to spend 500 quid on just a motherboard that really wasn't any good, they lost interest immediately. None of them wanted an underpowered computer, regardless of how responsive OS4 was in the demos because they all understand that means nothing when it comes to using the applications (which mostly are of the artwork and video fields).

Give me something I can give them that runs of the hardware they are already using (or has equal performance) and thats 30 sales right there. I'm sure this story is repeatable by many other former Amigans.

Keep with the existing hardware and the community will continue to deminish in size as clearly its been stated time and again, that a lot of us are simply not interested in the current options.

Whatever this announcement is thats coming up, if it still involves hardware that is inferior to x86 performance then its not really changing anything unless its so cheap (like the Mac Mini) that people don't mind paying.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 11:15:50
#254 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

Quote:

Recently, I've been showing them vids on youtube of OS4 doing its thing and all of them got as exicted as I did and asked when they could get hold of it.

Sorry, but AmigaOS is nowhere ready for the average user... So many things aren't intuitive, so many simple applications are lacking...

Let these users one day alone with AmigaOS, whithout having ever used it. And I'm pretty their excitment will quickly vanish and let the place to something else a lot less positive ;)

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 11:25:43
#255 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

And would it magically sell "ouside Amiga fans" (sic.) if a time consuming port to x86 were done?

Of course not. You have to write something new, modern, and give people a reason to buy it... You could also give it for free (I would), but this wouldn't make them magically use it (see AROS indeed).

It's clearly the end of line, both for the current old OS architecture, and for the PPC.


Again, maybe, maybe not.

If it's about survival, we need our best chance at it.
I would say as realistic as your comment about realising the old AMIGA H/W is no longer wanted for use. just as the Apple IIe h/w or the ATARI 600

As I see it, AROS is just a port of the old AMIGA OS, there is nothing really new and no one sees any point.
Development and funding of a newer updated OS like 4.1? ..... Well, yes, there is the reason in the sentance itself, mainly because it's new, better, updated to work with better x86 hardware or at least some of it lol faster, funded and developed for, does things or the same things faster more efficiently.

If we were to use your reasoning about AMIGA OS / AROS has failed to attarct more users and that AMIGA is dead and not useful then I would like to put a counter argument we should also say make Windows 98 MK2 and see how many people would buy that and develop for it now. Fact is XP/Vista and the new Windows 7 is superior to Windows 98 and it's on the x86 H/W platform too. AMIGA OS 4.1 is superior to OS 3.9 legacy which is what AROS is ported from and to be comparable with. It's on their website.

The point is, development is hardly going to continue on a platform that no one but wealthy enthusiants can afford to have. At least on the x86 hardware that can be bought for under $50 (2nd hand), people could (if ported) enjoy the AMIGA experience and using mainstream hardware that is actively developed for.
It surely gives the best oppertunity to increase the userbase. I very much doubt there is much room for growth the other way.
Show me the stats if I am wrong. I doubt the AMIGA userbase has grown much of late. It's too expensive and slow. ;)

Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 11:50 AM.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 11:30:22
#256 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

Recently, I've been showing them vids on youtube of OS4 doing its thing and all of them got as exicted as I did and asked when they could get hold of it.

Sorry, but AmigaOS is nowhere ready for the average user... So many things aren't intuitive, so many simple applications are lacking...

Let these users one day alone with AmigaOS, whithout having ever used it. And I'm pretty their excitment will quickly vanish and let the place to something else a lot less positive ;)


Would be a whole lot less again/on top of what you just said if you also had to say you need to buy a $1000 PC mainboard that won't run current graphics H/W models or memory speeds or sound cards and it's CPU power is 10x less than a PC equiv. That was his point or part of it I believe.

AMIGA OS 4.1 may not be ready for everyone but it's being improved and if it is to gather further improvement and development, it makes sense to bring it to a platform that will enable all those developments to take place and be affordable to the userbase.
People might even port Firefox, they did for Linux. Linux is still developed and is now ready for mainstream use. It wasn't always the case.

Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 11:41 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 11:35 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 11:33 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 11:31 AM.

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bernd_afa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 11:39:49
#257 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2006
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

Do a OS only for a expensive and slow Hardware only and make a OS not easy portable to other CPU as AROS or Linux and all newOS, is the stupidest thing a OS developer can do.

>It was "time to go x86" in 2001 when this ride started; the thing is, Hyperion never >had a mandate from Amiga, Inc. or whoever they are to do so. If Amiga, Inc. had >said "Port this to Intel/AMD architecture," then they would have by now.

Haage&Partner detect it right, and do amigaos xl and sell Amithlon.
Later can aos port in parts more and more to native X86, it is possible same way Mac do it or AFA.

it seem only when ainc get a more better looking contract they change.

Seem on this, ainc let Hyperion work on OS4 until ack want release it and announce. then the contract is going to cancel.

but inside see here, ainc seem not very happy with the job Hyperion do, because OS4 get lots of delay.

http://merlancia.us/amiga-hyperion/Time-LineOfChangesInAmigaIPOwnership.pdf

after the cebit 2003 they want buy back, read text on April.

I think with no OS4, amiga have more Users because AOS run then on faster and cheaper Hardware.

but now PPC is here and it was the false horse that is trained and financiate.

So we should look what we can do.

A way is, when the OS4 developers release there code that is ainc free, or Hyperion do not pay them, or they get for free from a leaving developer.

then other can make easier a OS4 simular OS on good Hardware, if Hyperion want stay forever on PPC

Last edited by bernd_afa on 23-Mar-2009 at 11:41 AM.

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 11:47:58
#258 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9291
From: Greensborough, Australia

@VidarL

Quote:
It could be quicker if Umilator is used as the basis



Erm, why would they bother using an emulator for the basis of an x86 AmigaOS? I thought, the same as for the PowerPC, that the whole point of it was to run the OS native?

Umilator? Just install WinUAE to your PC and you have fast Amiga emulation with AGA alongside Windows. More than Umilator could offer. There's your new OS.

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whose 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 11:50:10
#259 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 893
From: Germany

@SHADES

Quote:
Show me the stats if I am wrong.


Nobody needs to, as you have invalidated your pro arguments yourself. You wanna see? Here:

Quote:
At least on the x86 hardware that can be bought for under $50 (2nd hand), people can enjoy the AMIGA experience and using mainstream hardware that is actively developed for.


That is definetly not the target of all these fruitless pro x86 discussions. You propose to buy "old" hardware, which is at best half heartedly developed for, when most of the x86 supporters dream of brand new, absolutely actual hardware with "best" speed for a "moderate" price. You propose to buy old hardware, and that´s nothing else as the counter argument used in this diskussions ("PPC is dead, old slow..."). So, you have proven yourself the pointless argumentation used in such threads again and again.

Not to speak of all the other "supporters" who chose to constantly ignore the problems we will get with x86 hardware by referencing to Linux etc. without regarding to the fact that many drivers are still closed source and an effort from businesses interested in the Linux market (but in no way interested in endless discussing more-or-less Amiga interested people as customers!).

Regards

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 23-Mar-2009 11:51:01
#260 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9291
From: Greensborough, Australia

@tonyw

Quote:
The motherboard manufacturers don't release their info to anyone, so how on earth would Hyperion be able to port OS4 to any X86 motherboard?


I may be pointing something obvious here, but wouldnt't they bend over backwards showing the info to Windows?

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