@Leo

Quote:

...Except for Server (that's expensive and not that competitive when compared with the new intel processors), consoles (that's custom chips you probably cannot buy anyway) and Embed...

So, you have proven that it´s still alive and kicking. The "desktop" argument doesn´t count. There is no argument that really speaks against e.g. the embedded devices. As SAM proves, it works quite fine for a desktop yet. There is no really usable software that needs the raw power you actually demand. There will be hardware that gives you more power, sooner or later. It will be more expensive than any x86 hardware, but you will have AmigaOS running on it and you will have software, that actually utilizes this power in the sense of AmigaOS (well, I still hope so, some tendencies regarding OS development make me quite anxious about this!).

Sometimes I have the impression that not AmigaOS itself is the real topic here, but the wish of some people to get something "new" to play with for some months and not being forced to pay real money for it...

@SHADES:

Quote:

You haven't answered my question.

Other people did, many times now...

Quote:

Please explain anywhere in my posts where I said AMIGA OS "IS" Linux.

This is nut-picking and you know it You compared repeatedly with Linux, setting AmigaOS in an equal state as long as it´s running on x86, which is equal to "AmigaOS can be handled like Linux" which is equal to "AmigaOS is just like Linux".

Last edited by whose on 23-Mar-2009 at 01:41 PM.

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: Quote: AMIGA OS4x is not a dinasaur, it has a lot of new features that make it interesting to look at buying, but it's not SO INTERESTING that it also mandates you have to spend $500 more than current H/W just to buy a OLD pc H/W base with obscure PPC chip just run it. That's where I disagree. Windows 95 brought multitasking, plug and play, multimedia,... Windows XP finally ditched the old MS/DOS 16bit kernel base and added full memory protection, multi user,.. That's huge limitations that has been corrected. And these have changed the usage anyone can make about the OS. You may now run Windows for weeks/months without worrying about loosing your work because application xx has crashed. You may use it in school environments where multiple users can have their own accounts. Now what does OS4 brings when compared with OS3.9 ? What has changed in the use you can make of the OS ? I don't see anything but speed. New themes won't change it. Neither will ExecSG has it has the same limitations of the first one. Neither will compositing. Neither will the WB, as it's the same anyway ;) I'm sorry but I don't find any. And I am an OS4 user so it's not like I hadn't tried it...

What advances has AOS made from 3.9? have a look on the hyperion website. AOS is making huge advances in memory arcitecture too. Oh, yes, speed is good! that's a huge development. It does the same things much more effectively!, that's a huge plus. A Lot like Multi tasking was in the Win NT devs.

Look, AOS has much less resources available to it for development than Windows so you can't expect the same level of development, but that's what obsuce, expensive H/W on a very small userbase will do.
Too expensive=Not a lot of interest=Not a lot of funds=Not a lot of development.

AROS on the other hand is just a port of the OLD standard, much like your MS DOS being ported to AMIGA would be.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@whose

Quote:

whose wrote: @Leo Quote: ...Except for Server (that's expensive and not that competitive when compared with the new intel processors), consoles (that's custom chips you probably cannot buy anyway) and Embed... So, you have proven that it´s still alive and kicking. The "desktop" argument doesn´t count. There is no argument that really speaks against e.g. the embedded devices. As SAM proves, it works quite fine for a desktop yet. There is no really usable software that needs the raw power you actually demand. There will be hardware that gives you more power, sooner or later. It will be more expensive than any x86 hardware, but you will have AmigaOS running on it and you will have software, that actually utilizes this power in the sense of AmigaOS (well, I still hope so, some tendencies regarding OS development make me quite anxious about this!). Sometimes I have the impression that not AmigaOS itself is the real topic here, but the wish of some people to get something "new" to play with for some months and not being forced to pay real money for it... @SHADES: Quote: You haven't answered my question. Other people did, many times now... Quote: Please explain anywhere in my posts where I said AMIGA OS "IS" Linux. This is nut-picking and you know it You compared repeatedly with Linux, setting AmigaOS in an equal state as long as it´s running on x86, which is equal to "AmigaOS can be handled like Linux" which is equal to "AmigaOS is just like Linux".

I fail to see that logic. It is nit-picking as I never used the statement AMIGA "IS" LInux, nor did I try and portray such a statement. That was entirly you. That I know.

I used Linux as an example because it IS an Os that is able to "hold it's own" in the majority Windows OS enviroment prooving that there is room for OTHER OS's to be used as an alternative on the x86 platform.

Where have other people answerd my questions and why do you keep trying to escape from answering them yourself.

Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 02:09 PM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@whose

Quote:

So, you have proven that it´s still alive and kicking. The "desktop" argument doesn´t count. There is no argument that really speaks against e.g. the embedded devices. As SAM proves, it works quite fine for a desktop yet.

You say it works fine, thousands of people say its slow and expensive. (I made up that figure for effect)

Quote:

There will be hardware that gives you more power, sooner or later.

What hardware is this? The PPC's biggest market is the chips that go into engine management in automobiles. They are not interested in the desktop market anymore and have not been for many years.

There is no secret chip on the horizon that will transform things. The PPC desktop market is dead. Nobody is interested in making the situation change.

We are scrambling around to find hardware that we can use. The situation is not going to improve. The longer this goes on, the more of us still here will go and you'll all be hooking keyboards upto your satellite TV boxes in a deperate attempt to continue flogging the skeletal remains of the horse.

Quote:

Sometimes I have the impression that not AmigaOS itself is the real topic here, but the wish of some people to get something "new" to play with for some months and not being forced to pay real money for it...

Then you'd be wrong. The demand is very simple. Performance and cost not being so fantasticaly out of touch with the real world.

Edit: A PC gaming magazine recently showed how to build a PC capable of playing the very latest games in high detail thats total costs, including keyboard, mouse and monitor, cost less than a barebones Sam board.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 23-Mar-2009 at 02:36 PM.
Last edited by SpaceDruid on 23-Mar-2009 at 01:55 PM.

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: @whose Quote: So, you have proven that it´s still alive and kicking. The "desktop" argument doesn´t count. There is no argument that really speaks against e.g. the embedded devices. As SAM proves, it works quite fine for a desktop yet. You say it works fine, thousands of people say its slow and expensive. Quote: There will be hardware that gives you more power, sooner or later. What hardware is this? The PPC's biggest market is the chips that go into engine management in automobiles. They are not interested in the desktop market anymore and have not been for many years. There is no secret chip on the horizon that will transform things. The PPC desktop market is dead. Nobody is interested in making the situation change. We are scrambling around to find hardware that we can use. The situation is not going to improve. The longer this goes on, the more of us still here will go and you'll all be hooking keyboards upto your satellite TV boxes in a deperate attempt to continue flogging the skeletal remains of the horse. Quote: Sometimes I have the impression that not AmigaOS itself is the real topic here, but the wish of some people to get something "new" to play with for some months and not being forced to pay real money for it... Then you'd be wrong. The demand is very simple. Performance and cost not being so fantasticaly out of touch with the real world. Edit: A PC gaming magazine recently showed how to build a PC capable of playing the very latest games in high detail thats total costs, including keyboard, mouse and monitor, cost less than a barebones Sam board.

Ahh SpaceDruid. *sigh
I agree.

Now, why not just use the PC base and run AMIGA OS? I don't see why it would stall any further development. At least people would already have the hardware to write stuff for it. The hardware is no longer real bad like ISA slots or VESA. Why would a developer not want to write AMIGA OS programs just because it uses an x86 CPU? Motorolla gave up on their 68x cpu, we had to re-write code for PPC anyway. So what if Windows was the onbe pushing x86 development forward. I don't like Windows regardless of it being on x86 or PPC or my mobile phone. lol

If AOS is going to die, then it's going to die. Making people pay a premium and offereing them something much much slower and non compatible is only going to hurry a death up up in my opinion.

Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 02:04 PM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@Rob

That's a good one! Made my day!

@Leo

We're on the same sheet of music. There's no legal way that I can see Hyperion porting OS4 to a console.

@SHADES

Quote:

I used Linux as an example because it IS an Os that is able to "hold it's own" in the majority Windows OS enviroment prooving that there is room for OTHER OS's to be used as an alternative on the x86 platform.

You didn´t say anything about "room for other OS" or "as an alternative". You said that AmigaOS can evolve just like Linux did, and this is setting it equal to Linux, which is an inadmissibly comparison IMHO. That´s what I said.

And you keep on nit picking. I am not in charge to do your very own homework within this thread to remember the arguments pro the expensive, special and lame PPC machines. The arguments are spread all over this thread, free for you and all other people here to read and remember.

Btw., it shouldn´t matter if AROS is/was technically behind OS4, because it´s running on the cheapest hardware available for years now and is being "supported well". So it should have evolved very much faster, gaining thousands and thousands of users and developers, more than OS4 or MOS did ever, according to the x86 supporters.

But it didn´t and still doesn´t, so this example won´t fit to your argumentation so far. You should accept this fact rather than neglecting it again and again.

@exec:

That´s no excuse. I am a PPC supporter, but definetly NOT working with the tool of propaganda like Goebbels did. I do not use the way of personal insults or accusations of any kind, nor "propaganda", and so I´m not ok with the way you choose to express your protest against some childish people here (and they are not PPC supporters only!).

What about using the appropriate button for those childish people´s insults instead of using very... well, strange comparisons?

@eXec

You're right about the elitist attitudes on here. I actually had one guy contact me who told me that since I had fewer than 100 posts at the time, that I obviously didn't know much about Amigas!!! Nevermind that I bought my first Amiga 1000 in 1985 and still have several running.

It got even worse when I pointed out that the SAM was over priced and underpowered. You'd think I had set a nursery school on fire or something!

@Manu

Or maybe some more crackers for the parrots!!! LOL

@SpaceDruid

Additional to my earlier post about 500 quid PC's I never found the magazine I was looking for but I found a booklet from PC gamer with the same idea. This option does NOT come with mouse keyboard and monitor but is of a higher spec

"Build A Killer DX10 PC For Under £500"

Motherboard (Asus P5B) £75
Hard Drive (Western Digital 1600AAJS) £30
Memory (OCZ PC6400 800MHZ 5-5-5-12) £25
CPU (INTEL CORE2 DUO E2180) £55
3D CARD (SAPPHIRE RADEON HD 4850) £155
CHASSIS (ANTEC NSK 6000) £60
PSU (OCZ StealthXStream 700W) £100
DVD-RW (NEC AD-7170A-OB) £20

(It comes to over 500 quid in my book, the liars! )

Take away the universal parts and you have
£75 Asus P5B
£25 Memory
£55 Intel Core2 Duo E2180

£155 for a motherboard and CPU that are several magnitudes faster than the Sam (and the memory as well) and I could come up with large saving on even that if I shopped around.

Or I can go to AmigaKit and buy a SAM440ep (600Mhz)
for £455.


I remember having a conversation with a chap called Jim Somebodyorother (I forget) about his madness in spending a fortune on a PC so he could play Doom when he had loads of games on the A1200 he sold to me (so he could help pay for the PC). I still think he was mad, but he got quite a lot of horsepower in the day for that money.

Now the situation has changed to where we are being asked to pay fortunes for kit that is considerably slower and less powerful. The situation has swapped regrading cost, but not performance. Its madness.

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@whose

Quote:

whose wrote: @SHADES [quote]I used Linux as an example because it IS an Os that is able to "hold it's own" in the majority Windows OS enviroment prooving that there is room for OTHER OS's to be used as an alternative on the x86 platform.

Quote:

You didn´t say anything about "room for other OS" or "as an alternative". You said that AmigaOS can evolve just like Linux did, and this is setting it equal to Linux, which is an inadmissibly comparison IMHO. That´s what I said. And you keep on nit picking. I am not in charge to do your very own homework within this thread to remember the arguments pro the expensive, special and lame PPC machines. The arguments are spread all over this thread, free for you and all other people here to read and remember. Btw., it shouldn´t matter if AROS is/was technically behind OS4, because it´s running on the cheapest hardware available for years now and is being "supported well". So it should have evolved very much faster, gaining thousands and thousands of users and developers, more than OS4 or MOS did ever, according to the x86 supporters. But it didn´t and still doesn´t, so this example won´t fit to your argumentation so far. You should accept this fact rather than neglecting it again and again.

I didn't have to, that was just what I was inferrring to and there is no reason as to why AOS can't evolve like Linux. AOS is evolving now, just like Linux is also continuing to evolve. It is a vaiable OS just as Linux is. It works and can be further developed. It is a valid comparison.

I never said AOS was Linux however and I wasn't refering to AOS turning in to Linux distro or I would have also said that, I never did. My comparison is valid unless you can prove that it is not.

AROS is a port to obtain 3.1 AMIGA functionality. AOS 4.1 has moved on to do it better and differently but thank you for confirming my point about the x86 platform. AROS is very much alive and moving to x86 hasn't killed it. That in itself should proove that the improved version of AOS 4.1 shoulc also continue to improve and at leats everyone will be able to afford it. I can see that only as a positve step to increase user numbers.

As for "homework" that's a slack response, where's yours? your going to use every other persons debate in the entire thread instead of proove your own theorys? Perhaps that's because you don't have any that can disproove my own.
C'mon mr homework, out with the quotes.

Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 02:40 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 02:39 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 02:36 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 23-Mar-2009 at 02:35 PM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@whose

Quote:

@exec: That´s no excuse. I am a PPC supporter, but definetly NOT working with the tool of propaganda like Goebbels did. I do not use the way of personal insults or accusations of any kind, nor "propaganda", and so I´m not ok with the way you choose to express your protest against some childish people here (and they are not PPC supporters only!). What about using the appropriate button for those childish people´s insults instead of using very... well, strange comparisons?

As long as my "selective" memory allows...I can`t remember me pointing with
a finger onto you and saying that you are the guy with such type of replying methodology.
You are the one who founded himself insulted and who reacted with such a strength
as in the last post above. I`m sorry because you got such a impression, but...there
are some people here which are spitting onto all other alternatives outer PPC/SAM.
That is in my opinion, stupid. This is democracy, everyone can say what he want.
It looks that here is a community inside community, a extreme fraction/cell of
the people with the same opinion.
.
If you like apples and I like oranges, it does not mean that I need to talk about your
affinity on the worse possible way. I just wrote my opinion here on this forum,
actually I kind of a asked about the whole "situation".



All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

@ferrels

Quote:

You're right about the elitist attitudes on here. I actually had one guy contact me who told me that since I had fewer than 100 posts at the time, that I obviously didn't know much about Amigas!!! Nevermind that I bought my first Amiga 1000 in 1985 and still have several running. It got even worse when I pointed out that the SAM was over priced and underpowered. You'd think I had set a nursery school on fire or something!

Well, you can`t do anything against morons. They were always present, since the
beginning of time and they`re going to be a bit of more time with us present.
Those self called "elitist" are nothing else than people with a problem.



All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

Quote:

So, you have proven that it´s still alive and kicking. The "desktop" argument doesn´t count. There is no argument that really speaks against e.g. the embedded devices.

You can't even play a DVD at full speed right now... Come on !

And I won't dare speaking about Blue-ray/HD videos...

Cause on an embed device you don't care about playing DVD... but you may need to have an FPGA onboard (I'm talking about the Sam), and any sort of things...

@Shades: redesigning the way memory is allocated doesn't improve the overall experience of the OS... Yes, you have less fragmentation and allocation/deallocation will be faster. But this isn't groundbreaking as adding memory protection...

Look, I didn't say no work had been done... I said that all limitations that have been there in AmigaOS from day 1 (yes, back in 1985) are still there today. And that's what prevents the OS from evolving, and interesting new people...

Quote:

Sometimes I have the impression that not AmigaOS itself is the real topic here, but the wish of some people to get something "new" to play with for some months and not being forced to pay real money for it...

Sometimes I have the impression than no matter how outdated, old the OS can be. It will still be better than anything else, just because it's called "AmigaOS". As if the competition was stuck in 1985... The only problem is that AmigaOS only seems to be stuck 24 years in the past... Others are moving, and quite well. Not matter the CPU they are running.. 68k is dead ? well let's switch to PPC.. PPC isn't developed for the desktop anymore ? well, let's switch to x86, cause x86 has many resources being put in the desktop market.

It was good in 1985. Compared with today's standards, it's outdated. Booting in 20 secs (and crashes in as little) won't make it modern...

Last edited by Leo on 23-Mar-2009 at 05:30 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 23-Mar-2009 at 05:27 PM.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@eXec

As i always said x86 is the way to go but dont understand why amiga community want to go back & they want to buy cheaply done & bugy hardware for £700 or more just the sam it self costs about £500 pounds but we can buy 3ghz x86 ready system for £500 or DIY it your self for less than £500.

I never had any chance to buy any sound/graphic card from my local shop and stick that in my amiga bacouse my amiga was never design to take any cards like pc`es.

WHY do we amigans have to order parts from special online shops and wait for ever them
to arrive. maybe thats makes amiga an amiga (thats not fun at all)

WHY do we have to get tighdown to One HW company or few when rest of the is WORLD
producing HW for x86 everyday or minute).

WHY do you still use Windows and you have SAM + OS4.0?

WHy this small community wants (expensive) PPC? &(ppc market nearly dead)
and they want to sell amigans the unselled mac boards or out of dated ppc`es.

OS gives the amiga feeling not HW.


I`m an amigan since i was 7 and right now i`m running Amiga via WinUAE till HW side
sorted and i dont want to buy a limited HW (which we have it today & we dont have any tomorrow)


this is my view please do not point out (Yet an other x86 thread) and i agree @eXec all the way.

_________________
http://aros-exec.org/

http://serk118.blogspot.com/

@serk118

Quote:

OS gives the amiga feeling not HW

The Real Amiga feeling is given by The OS and hardware

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@Fransexy

Quote:

The Real Amiga feeling is given by The OS and hardware

thats your view matey ()

than use Amiga 500/600/1200/etc they are the very REAL old time computers and today 2009
not 1980`s any more & why people with SamPPC boards are who are alway agains this x86 HW on amiga.


dont you want to walk in your local pc shop and buy parts by looking at it not pictures from internet.

i personaly dont care what HW i use but OS must be Amiga not Windoz.

Last edited by serk118 on 23-Mar-2009 at 05:53 PM.

_________________
http://aros-exec.org/

http://serk118.blogspot.com/

@Leo

>AROS is easy to get, is free and you can get some information for it... But it's based >on an outdated architecture. That's the main problem as I see it.

In AROS is put much less money than in OS4.AROS is the unloved OS.bashed by all PPC lovers, because when users dont buy PPC then PPC maker get no money, so they are motivate to promote their OS. AROS is make as hobby so no promotion.nobody explain that AROS is far more than 3.9 have skin features as OS4 and other new important features as AA.

OS4 is the loved future OS.

And what can see, look on aros archive

http://archives.aros-exec.org/

there are 347 files for AROS and for OS4 2227 files currently
AROS run on much more HW native than OS4.

so i think when AROS technoligy was the loved future OS and there was invest this much money instead in OS4, in AROS, i think there was much more here for AROS and more developers etc.

but maybe OS4 Components get released for free, so they can port to add in AROS then we can see, a OS with fast and cheap hardware is used much more than a OS with expensive and slow Haardware

Last edited by bernd_afa on 23-Mar-2009 at 06:02 PM.
Last edited by bernd_afa on 23-Mar-2009 at 06:00 PM.

@ferrels

Quote:

We're on the same sheet of music. There's no legal way that I can see Hyperion porting OS4 to a console.

Huh? You don't need anything other than the console itself to legally develop for it. If we're using Sony as an example, and you want to make things easy for yourself, you can buy a PS3 dev kit (~11,000 USD in Europe last time I saw numbers). You don't need to use Sony as your publisher for an "Other OS" release.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603