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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 1:27:43
#321 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 801
From: Arizona

@Trev

$11,000 USD per seat is outrageous. Hyperion would have to buy a copy of the dev kit for each programmer on the dev team unless you expect them to stand in line and wait for the one workstation that it's licensed on. So multiply 11000 by the number of programmers Hyperion would leverage on the porting process. And the dev kit is only good for game development, not porting an OS.

And Sony's reference documentation conveniently leaves out how to properly gain access to the 3D hardware on the PS3, essentially forcing you to use the display in dumb frame-buffer mode. That's why Yellow Dog runs like a slug on the PS3 when doing anything other than web browsing.

And the PS2 nor the PS3 are not open systems, not now, and not in the forseable future. Sony's idea of an open platform is completely different to the open source community's idea of an open platform. If it were an open platform, the dev kit would be free......or rather cost free.

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 3:42:10
#322 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4896
From: New Zealand

@Trev

Quote:

Trev wrote:

$11,000 is not a lot of money. It's not like the Friedens are financing OS4 via day jobs at McDonald's (or the Belgian equivalent). EDIT: (Dear God, I hope not.)


Or, you could pay me the $11,000 USD, and I could then work on my driver full-time for a few months and make 5-6x the progress that I do now.

Hans

_________________
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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 3:49:00
#323 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@ferrels

Well, we're not going to agree on whether or not $11,000 is outrageous, but my guess is that many smaller development houses really do share a single development system. That's not an obstacle, though:

1. Design software on whiteboard.
2. Code software using tools of choice.
3. Compile software using cross-compiler.
(Somewhere between 2 and 3, a continuous integration suite is probably compiling the project on fixed intervals or after commits, alerting developers to build failures.)
4. Test software on debug unit (much cheaper than full dev kit) or simulator.
5. Goto 2.

In the case of the PS3's Other OS feature, you're not writing code to directly access hardware, you're writing to a hypervisor, as you know. You don't need a full dev kit for that. For unit testing Cell/BE-specific code, e.g. not related to the hypervisor, you can use IBM's Full System Simulator for Cell. No PS3 necessary.

Anyway, I don't see the acquisition of a dev kit as being on the critical path of this type of project. The Friedens are smart guys (right?). I'm sure they could figure it out if they had a financially compelling reason to do so. Personally, I think a PS3 port would add just as much value as a [insert defunct PPC board here] port.

Quote:

And the PS2 nor the PS3 are not open systems, not now, and not in the forseable future. Sony's idea of an open platform is completely different to the open source community's idea of an open platform. If it were an open platform, the dev kit would be free......or rather cost free.


Three points:

1. They're open in the sense that Sony is letting folks do whatever they want in certain regions. There are no licensing restrictions (unless you copy/modify Sony's GPL code) on the Other OS feature, regardless of the region.
2. AmigaOS 4 itself is not an open system, so what's the issue again?
3. Your definition of free (as in beer) is not consistent with the generally accepted definition of free (as in speech) when used to describe open systems. Free is sharing your ideas with others. Free is reporting on security flaws without fear of reprisals. Free is insuring interoperability between disparate systems. Etc. (Trust me, I like free beer just as much the next guy, but this ain't it.)

EDIT: Here's a link to Wikipedia, because no online debate is complete without links to dubious sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_Libre

EDIT2: (Or a facetious comment.)

Last edited by Trev on 24-Mar-2009 at 04:02 AM.
Last edited by Trev on 24-Mar-2009 at 04:02 AM.

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borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 3:51:04
#324 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Hans

My worst enemy has always been boredom, not financial resources. (I did just work three weeks straight, so I guess time is sometimes an issue as well.)

EDIT: Serious question, though. Are you targeting defunct or current hardware, and are you shooting for continued compatibility with future AMD chips, assuming they talk to a bus compatible with an OS4-supported board, i.e. PCI?

Last edited by Trev on 24-Mar-2009 at 04:05 AM.

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borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 4:27:47
#325 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@AmigaHeretic

[quote]
Note that graphics drivers would still have to be rewritten for x86 since the current ones are written for big-endian machines. And yes, endianness does matter in this case. The first thing that I had to do with my RadeonHD driver was to perform endianness swapping for register reads/writes. This was followed by getting the AtomBIOS parser to work on a big-endian machine (not fun). Fortunately for me, my code has (untested) switches in it to allow it to run on a little-endian machine, if ever necessary...

I don't think that it would be a huge task to adapt the drivers, but little tasks do add up.


Yeah, but I would think that converting the drivers they have would be easier than doing all new drivers for whatever the PS3 has. I mean there people that are saying "Port to PS3", but in the same breath saying it would impossibly difficult to port to "x86". Do people really think it would be less work to port to Cell chip, all new graphics, sound, whatever type of North/South bridge type stuff the PS3 has? I mean really, people think it would be so much easier to port to PS3? I think that's crazy, but I don't write OSes so I have no idea.



Quote:

Um, this laptop has a PowerPC processor in it. Not exactly an example of a power machine, but it is a laptop.

Hans



I didn't think one actual LimePC 'actually' existed I thought they were all just SGI rendered images?

Also, I went to the link but the only Laptop I see there is MIPS based? But if nothing is for sale....


I want an AOS4 laptop!!!

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 4:50:05
#326 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4896
From: New Zealand

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
I didn't think one actual LimePC 'actually' existed I thought they were all just SGI rendered images?

Also, I went to the link but the only Laptop I see there is MIPS based? But if nothing is for sale....


The MPC5121e has an e300 PowerPC core plus other stuff. Drivers for its onboard graphics would be an issue though. As for whether they really exist, see this clip on youtube.

Quote:
I want an AOS4 laptop!!!


So do I!

Hans

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 5:01:44
#327 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4896
From: New Zealand

@Trev

Quote:

Trev wrote:
EDIT: Serious question, though. Are you targeting defunct or current hardware, and are you shooting for continued compatibility with future AMD chips, assuming they talk to a bus compatible with an OS4-supported board, i.e. PCI?


Short answer:
My goal is to support the newest cards possible, which is subject to AMD releasing the documentation, and the amount of time that I have to spend on it.

Longer answer:
Right now the driver should be able to open screens on anything from a Radeon X1300 right up to a Radeon 4800 (I can't remember if I added IDs for the 4830 or not right now). Hardware acceleration is a different matter though. Right now I'm working on HW acceleration for R5xx cards (Radeon X1000 series) and plan to move on to R6xx cards (Radeon HD 2000 and 3000 series). R7xx cards (the latest generation) don't have any publicly available documentation yet, plus there are no Radeon 4000 series PCI cards so I can't stick these into my A1 anyway.

I spent a lot of time getting the AtomBIOS parser working so that it should support newer chipsets at the basic framebuffer level. The AtomBIOS contains code for a virtual-machine that does things such as mode-setting, and provides details about what the card's connectors are etc.

Hans

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 6:55:02
#328 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@Hans

Running a PCIe graphics card in the AmigaOne has been done before, btw. You just need a bridge.

Had the A1 supported graphics cards in the PCI slot, I would have finished the bridged riser years ago. But seeing as there was next to no market for it, I gave up on the idea.

Now we're about to see the release of the flex board, which might very well benefit from having access to newer cards. So I might think about it.

Putting both PCI and PCIe on the riser is starting to look like a dead end, since the only board that could use it like that is the SAM440ep, which already has onboard graphics.

So I'm thinking people should get a 3-slot PCI riser for their EP and a simple PCI-PCIe bridge for their flex. Whatcha think? Do I have a plan?

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 8:45:11
#329 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1595
From: Unknown

Quote:

Move to another platform mean to start again from the basics.

Of course !!
From day one (back in 1985), Amiga developers knew they would have to start again from the basics in order to break the barriers of the OS (no memory protection, no resource tracking,...). It's funny we are even discussing this 24 years later !

Maybe it will take another 24 years for people to understand that... Who knows ?

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Hammer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 10:43:34
#330 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3940
From: Australia

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote:
@Hans

Quote:

And would it magically sell "ouside Amiga fans" (sic.) if a time consuming port to x86 were done?


In addtion to what SHADES said, heres my hat thrown into the ring.

I brought around 30 or so friends into the world of Amiga from non computer backgrounds. They all had to move onto other platforms when their hardware died out or they found they hit a brick wall with the Amiga capabilities.

Recently, I've been showing them vids on youtube of OS4 doing its thing and all of them got as exicted as I did and asked when they could get hold of it. After explaining the rather complex reason why they'd have to spend 500 quid on just a motherboard that really wasn't any good, they lost interest immediately. None of them wanted an underpowered computer, regardless of how responsive OS4 was in the demos because they all understand that means nothing when it comes to using the applications (which mostly are of the artwork and video fields).

Give me something I can give them that runs of the hardware they are already using (or has equal performance) and thats 30 sales right there. I'm sure this story is repeatable by many other former Amigans.

Keep with the existing hardware and the community will continue to deminish in size as clearly its been stated time and again, that a lot of us are simply not interested in the current options.

Whatever this announcement is thats coming up, if it still involves hardware that is inferior to x86 performance then its not really changing anything unless its so cheap (like the Mac Mini) that people don't mind paying.

With computing performance, it depends on the form factor i.e. PDA//smartphones, netbooks, laptops and 'etc'.

The market can accept a ~600Mhz CPU for Apple iPhone (ARM1176JZ includes SIMD) or Samsung Omnia (ARM Xscale PXA 312 includes 32KB/32 KB L1 cache, 256KB Internal SRAM, MMX2 SIMD) type PDA/smartphone.

PowerPC 440ep is abit under powered in media processing side.

Last edited by Hammer on 24-Mar-2009 at 10:49 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 24-Mar-2009 at 10:48 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 24-Mar-2009 at 10:45 AM.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 11:07:42
#331 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 636
From: Melbourne

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
Oh dear. I go to sleep and there are three to four pages of posts in this thread that are mostly the same things repeated over and over. Just when I thought that we were getting somewhere.

Ok, one more time, for those who replied to my posts thinking that I somehow missed the obvious:

First the "pro" x86 points:
- There is nothing technically impossible about porting to x86
- It is true that there would probably be some more users if a port to x86 were done because the cost of entry would be lower
- I have no technical reason why PowerPC should remain the platform of choice
- I would personally buy Amiga OS 4.x for x86 if it existed

unfortunately:
- The cost of porting to x86, both in time and money, is high
- The number of extra users would not be all that high
- Likely no income will be coming in during that time
- The OS' feature-set would be stagnant during the port, making it less interesting to potential users once it's done
- The COST of reaching those extra few users would be rather high, as would be the risks
- Lack of income could cause serious cashflow problems leading to bankruptcy, which means the port would never be finished (or it would take much longer, leading to lost sales)


finally:
- PowerPC is not as dead as some claim. People need to think a little more creatively than "a desktop needs a desktop chip"
- There are still likely to be more PowerPC motherboards produced on which Amiga OS 4 could run
- Enhancing the OS makes it more appealing
- Enhancing the OS rather than porting to a significantly different platform would take less time, have fewer risks, and a lower cost to reach customers (even if there are fewer of them

- We don't know what ambitious project Hyperion are spending their time and money on

I'll leave it at that. If people still don't understand what I'm trying to say, they never will. In the end it depends on how dead you think PowerPC is, and how easy/hard you think the port will be (I know that ferrels differs with me on these two items).

Hans


Nice thought out reply, however I still don't see your logic here.

"unfortunately:
- The cost of porting to x86, both in time and money, is high
- The number of extra users would not be all that high
- Likely no income will be coming in during that time
- The OS' feature-set would be stagnant during the port, making it less interesting to potential users once it's done
- The COST of reaching those extra few users would be rather high, as would be the risks
- Lack of income could cause serious cashflow problems leading to bankruptcy, which means the port would never be finished (or it would take much longer, leading to lost sales)
"


I can't agree on your cost statement as a con to port to x86. Although AROS is of an old standard, 90% of it is already ported to x86 and I'm sure some of this code could cut down development time drasticly. Certainly cost of obtaining a H/W base is going to come down drasticly allowing people to develop for x86 and help port if needed or at least create drivers.

Power PC boards are so few in the market place, they are not viable. If you think they will come down in procie and mass manufactured just because of AOS, think again. People are already not buying in the AMIGA community because of the cost. Our userbase is barely a drop in the ocean now so price isn't going to come down. there is no MASS market for PPC boards or desktops as you put it.

I don't see why people would leave the AMIGA community just over a x86 codebase. Why? it's so "available" and up to date and fast and there are plenty of embedded platforms on x86 too. Heck I just read about one for cars on TomsHardware.

As for your further comment on extra users, where are they now? porting to Peg didn't make any huge advance, in fact, I doubt it made much impact at all. The expense of yet another HIGH priced, underpowered non expandable AMIGA H/W platform is also only going to keep user numbers down and people will once again be forced to look at emulation to keep their hobby OS alive. The future development of that OS is now in danger as it's no longer worth porting when the users become too few. At least on x86, just about anyone can become a user even if AOS stays a hobby OS.


Last edited by SHADES on 24-Mar-2009 at 11:30 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 24-Mar-2009 at 11:14 AM.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 11:44:52
#332 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@ferrels

Amiga has no future on game consoles. The only future for the Amiga
is a jump onto x86 arhitecture.


All the best,

D.

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 13:39:32
#333 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9517
From: Greensborough, Australia

@SHADES

Quote:
Point is, you won't get more users on AMIGA OS on high priced, slower, non-mainstream H/W


What kind of users? Low hanging fruit?

Or other computer users?

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vision 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 13:57:05
#334 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2005
Posts: 472
From: Unknown

@Hans

Well answered, but I don´t agree in 2 points:

- I don´t think porting to X86 will add "just a few more" users. I think THOUSANDS will jump in, for the same reasons as us (or have you forgotten why do you like Amiga?): Quicker and responsive OS and also easier to use.

- The work needed for the change is not that impossible. It could be even some kind of agreement to use AROS as base, so starting from that it could be much easier improved, but even if it was done from scratch, it can be done.

Easy? not at all, but productive: x1000000

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 14:01:22
#335 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 9517
From: Greensborough, Australia

@All

At the Ace2k show when OS3.9 was announced some Linux dork shouted out "Why can't you just let it die?" Well, why does Linux deserve to live instead?

I am starting to think like Heigis and that we should all leave the building. Provided he has. (I never got to give my goodbye speech.)

Fact is the Amiga was the first but it won't be the last. It is the Amiga but not the Omega. The beginning and the end. Amen.

The PC hardware won. Even Apple were defeated and now have to use PC hardware. The A1 was bad for the Amigas image and insulted it in some ways. The Sam hardware is good but it still manages to insult the Amiga. Of course, PC hardware now insults OS4 hardware and Vista, even though it's still another verrsion of Windows, insults AmigaOS4.

My point? I think we should forget all this AmigaOS and x86 crap. The PC won. An AmigaOS made for x86 is an insult to the Amiga. It was the real enemy to the real Amiga. Maybe it's time to admit defeat. The PC evolved. The Mac evolved into a PC. The Amiga was left behind, what ever chances were thrown at it, were just too late. The Amiga didn't survive to be part of the big computer trilogy.
The Bizare Love Triangle that makes up todays computer platforms.

So how about forgetting about AmigaOS on modern hardware, AmigsOS is not modern anymore. Run Linux, Vista or if it takes yer fancy Mac. That's what a PC is meant to do. Fancy pipe dreams for the Amiga just are not going to happen so I see no point in arguing about it.

Last edited by Hypex on 25-Mar-2009 at 01:32 PM.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 14:47:00
#336 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1595
From: Unknown

Quote:

The PC won. An AmigaOS made for x86 is an insult to the Amiga. It was the real enemy to the real Amiga. Maybe it's time to admit defeat. The PC evolved.

You guys are really crazy !
We're talking about technology and business... And you're using verbs usually used towards people !

The Amiga was just a machine. AmigaOS is just lines of codes.

And yes, the Amiga was considered more than a machine + lines of codes. And if you ask me that's one of the problem. And that's why outside a 1000 users community of people spiting on everything else (be it themselves, with the red/blue camp), or anyone outside (be it Win, Linux,...). If Amiga hasn't had been so personnal it would still be alive.

CBM/Amiga didn't need any enemy to die...

Last edited by Leo on 24-Mar-2009 at 02:47 PM.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 15:01:23
#337 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Leo

Quote:
CBM/Amiga didn't need any enemy to die...


That`s right!

All the best,

D.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 15:03:21
#338 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@Hypex

Quote:
That's what a PC is meant to do. Fancy pipe dreams for the Amiga just are not going to happen so I see no point in arguing about it.


Amiga is doomed (hopefully not for a long time anymore) with PPC!

All the best,

D.

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Manu 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 15:55:14
#339 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:

Hypex wrote:
My point? I think we should forget all this AmigaOS and x86 crap. The PC won. An AmigaOS made for x86 is an insult to the Amiga. It was the real enemy to the real Amiga. Maybe it's time to admit defeat. The PC evolved. The Mac evolved into a PC. The Amiga was left behind, what ever chances were thrown at it, were just too late. The Amiga didn't survive to be part of the big computer trilogy.


Many moons ago I came to the conclusion that what Hypex has written here is EXACTLY why we never will see AmigaOS on x86. It is PC vs Amiga as it was in the mid 90's that is in peoples minds an thus they could never ever look themselves in the mirror if they bought an Amiga made out of x86. You would never belive it could come down to this after som many years, as Amigas survial and GROWTH should be of concern to all here.
Even Carl Sassenrath and Dave Hayine has been logged on at AW trying to explain what they should have done if they countinued building Next Gen Amigas, but it just pours off the PPC crowd like a glass of water. Carl was insulted as not having the passion or something like that. .

I have moved on long ago, I live in the real world and i SEE the PC's progress and it makes me sad because I also see all the time WHY Amiga is truly never going to be affordable anymore and run on such devices, state-of-the-art devices.

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hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 16:14:14
#340 ]
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Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
I didn't think one actual LimePC 'actually' existed I thought they were all just SGI rendered images?

Also, I went to the link but the only Laptop I see there is MIPS based? But if nothing is for sale....


The MPC5121e has an e300 PowerPC core plus other stuff. Drivers for its onboard graphics would be an issue though. As for whether they really exist, see this clip on youtube.

Quote:
I want an AOS4 laptop!!!


So do I!

Hans




I think part of the reason why people want to go to x86 is something exactly like. And I don't mean to offend you personally or anything :)

But this is the kind of thing a lot of see. Some says PPC is dieing. There is no future. And then we get something like this saying, 'Hey PPC is still a live.'

So the problem is the only laptop pointed out so far also comes with a like to the CPU it using. The MPC5121. Which going to the freescale site it looks like it used for the dashboard of car!!

Trying to turn these little embeded CPUs into full blown computers seems silly when there are already 10,000 boards/with CPU to choose from and at 1/5 the price.


I guess my question to the people that support PPC and don't want to go x86 is what makes you think it is SO much more work to port AOS4 than it is to take an embedded CPU and design you own entire system for a desktop?

PPC supporters are saying it seems like an insane task to port AOS4 to x86.

To me it seems like an insane task to keep taking PPC embeded chips and trying to turn them in to PCs.


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