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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 16:41:23
#341 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1585
From: Unknown

@Manu: indeed. You should have a look at that: http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid452319854?bctid=958764703

This is interesting.. And explains why Apple is where it is, and why Amiga is no more...

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 17:36:40
#342 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@Leo

Ok, so if Amiga is no more, why are we even having this discussion?
Why not just accept that AROS exists on x86 and therefore porting AmigaOS4 to x86 should not be considered that important.

If AROS hasn't managed to do it (it being attracting those millions of potential users everyone seems to think are out there) in a decade, then why on earth would OS4 manage it within a reasonable timeframe?

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Arnie 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 17:54:43
#343 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 810
From: Swindon, UK, Earth somewhere in the galaxy

@olegil

Quote:
If AROS hasn't managed to do it (it being attracting those millions of potential users everyone seems to think are out there) in a decade, then why on earth would OS4 manage it within a reasonable timeframe?


Going X86 now probably won't the damage to Amiga has already been done, this should have been done from the start to have stood a better chance, Amiga is still a recognizable name AROS is not and I doubt many know what it is.

Amiga OS needs to attract these people in order to survive being anything more than a hobby to a few dedicated followers. How is anything to do with PPC going to change this, Jo Public and Mr Big Developer are not going to waste there money on hardware like Sam, so if you say X86 will not help at all then what will?

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bernd_afa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 18:09:43
#344 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2006
Posts: 829
From: Unknown

@olegil

>Ok, so if Amiga is no more, why are we even having this discussion?
>Why not just accept that AROS exists on x86 and therefore porting AmigaOS4 to >x86 should not be considered that important.

OS4 have cost more money is announced as future OS and get more support, so there are more programs on OS4, because in the past see more a better future of OS4.

But AROS can port to a new platform with less cost and fast.look at the SAM bounty or efila bounty and how long it need to port it as a hobby project.

Hyperion are so extrem slow developers,they do the amiga wait for dead.

nonone can pay Hyperion per hour because they are unbelivable slow.look how long it now take until OS4 final for SAM come, or known Bugs are fixed.

If Hyperion have no money, or want not pay their slow work, per succsess and standard SOftware developer calculations, wy they make not OS4 or parts of it opensource ?

Last edited by bernd_afa on 24-Mar-2009 at 06:12 PM.

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Heinz 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 19:28:29
#345 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Oct-2005
Posts: 212
From: Unknown

While I think that it would have been a smart move, to choose x86 instead of PPC in 2001 in the first place, I now think it is no longer neccessary now to have OS4 on x86.
If Hyperion thinks they can better use some obscure low performance PPC Hardware to market OS4 on, then so be it.
There is nothing so special about OS4 that cant be done with AROS.
It just needs to mature a little more.

What would be good is to have more apps ported from OS4 (and MorphOS) to AROS and vice versa.

All sides would benefit from that, because the app developers would increase their user base and may be more motivated to further develop their apps.


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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 20:28:38
#346 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4876
From: New Zealand

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@Hans

So I'm thinking people should get a 3-slot PCI riser for their EP and a simple PCI-PCIe bridge for their flex. Whatcha think? Do I have a plan?


One of the reasons why I'm not even considering using a PCI-PCIe bridge right now is the ~$500 US price-tag (it's a "developer" board), so if you can make one of these things affordable, go for it.

I personally hope that the next motherboard that comes out after the flex already has PCIe on it.

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 20:35:17
#347 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4876
From: New Zealand

@SHADES

Quote:

SHADES wrote:
I can't agree on your cost statement as a con to port to x86. Although AROS is of an old standard, 90% of it is already ported to x86 and I'm sure some of this code could cut down development time drasticly. Certainly cost of obtaining a H/W base is going to come down drasticly allowing people to develop for x86 and help port if needed or at least create drivers.


Development costs money; that money has to be spent before a single product is sold. Where will that money come from? Don't have enough money, and it never get's finished; that's why there are so many failed ventures out there. And no, I don't think that any AROS code could be used. I don't think that the AROS source code is close to what Amiga OS 4.1 is at all.

Quote:
I don't see why people would leave the AMIGA community just over a x86 codebase. Why? it's so "available" and up to date and fast and there are plenty of embedded platforms on x86 too. Heck I just read about one for cars on TomsHardware.

I didn't say that at all.

Quote:
As for your further comment on extra users, where are they now? porting to Peg didn't make any huge advance, in fact, I doubt it made much impact at all. The expense of yet another HIGH priced, underpowered non expandable AMIGA H/W platform is also only going to keep user numbers down and people will once again be forced to look at emulation to keep their hobby OS alive. The future development of that OS is now in danger as it's no longer worth porting when the users become too few. At least on x86, just about anyone can become a user even if AOS stays a hobby OS.


I am not privy to their reasons for porting to the Peg II. Maybe the possibility of giving more developers access to a machine, combined with the fact that Peg II owners are already Amiga enthusiasts.

Hans

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 20:38:34
#348 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4876
From: New Zealand

@vision

Quote:

vision wrote:
@Hans

Well answered, but I don´t agree in 2 points:

- I don´t think porting to X86 will add "just a few more" users. I think THOUSANDS will jump in, for the same reasons as us (or have you forgotten why do you like Amiga?): Quicker and responsive OS and also easier to use.

How many people use AROS right now? How different would it be if Amiga OS 4.x were ported minus backward compatibility so that it had zero apps? Adding backward compatibility (which includes a PowerpC emulator, etc.) would take even more time and resources, which adds to the cost of reaching those users.

Quote:
- The work needed for the change is not that impossible. It could be even some kind of agreement to use AROS as base, so starting from that it could be much easier improved, but even if it was done from scratch, it can be done.

I never said that it was impossible, and no, using the AROS code is not a good idea; not if you want Amiga OS 4.x anyway.

Hans

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 20:51:39
#349 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4876
From: New Zealand

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:

I think part of the reason why people want to go to x86 is something exactly like. And I don't mean to offend you personally or anything :)


No offense taken at all. The LimeBook is pretty low spec. My one purpose in showing it was to counter your "no PowerPC laptop exists and ever will" argument.

Quote:
I guess my question to the people that support PPC and don't want to go x86 is what makes you think it is SO much more work to port AOS4 than it is to take an embedded CPU and design you own entire system for a desktop?

PPC supporters are saying it seems like an insane task to port AOS4 to x86.

To me it seems like an insane task to keep taking PPC embeded chips and trying to turn them in to PCs.


I've already covered this more than enough times. Basically you have to deal with everything that you would for a port to another PowerPC machine, plus the endianness issues and architectural differences. Pretty much everything that touches the hardware would need to reworked, even if that very piece of hardware already has drivers for the current Amiga OS. I'm working on drivers for Radeon HD cards, and I have experienced first-hand what it takes to bring driver code (the AtomBIOS parser) from a little-endian system to a big-endian one. It's doable, but it's no cake-walk. Finding the locations that have endianness issues alone is a time-consuming and drustrating task.

After all the above, you end up with a system with no apps. Still not particularly marketable (don't forget that AROS is also there, for free). Either work has to start on porting everything over that source-code can be obtained for, or backward compatibility is going to have to be added. Either way, that's going to add even more time and money to the equation.

Hans

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minator 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 21:08:26
#350 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

I think the real problem is people want the OS on cheap available hardware.

The PS3 is cheap and available, and a port to it will be a *lot* easier and a *lot* quicker than any x86 port. The performance of the PPE is variable (much better than a G4 on some things, much worse on others) but it's going to be a lot better than a 600MHz 440 with no L2.

The frame buffer is a lot faster than anyone thinks, As for the GPU, is the lack of access really going to be a problem given there are no modern 3D games to run on it?

The $11,000 dev kit is for game devs, it'd probably be helpful for OS bring up but they don't really need it. You also don't need to pay Sony to run on the PS3 as an "other OS", and even if you did, what difference does it make?

There may be problems with a PS3 port but apart from the G4 Mac mini it is by far the easiest target for any port. Oh, and there's 29 million of them...

Most importantly of all, it'll be backwards compatible.

---

x86 on the other hand is a lot harder port. It's a completely different CPU architecture so a lot of stuff will have to be completely rewritten.

Even when the basic port is done you then have the problem of the hardware. What variant/s of x86 do you support? what chipsets do you support? Lots and lots of work.

Most people seem to be forgetting that even when it's done it will only ever be a partial port. x86 processors are all multi-core these days. AmigaOS is not and never shall be SMP capable - for a similar reason to why it'll not get memory protection.

So you get a nice shiny new 12 core machine and you can only ever use 1 core, great.

However to add insult to injury you also lose software compatibility, your nice shiny new 12 core machine is not only crippled beyond belief but you'll never know because you have Zero software to run on it.

--

The biggest problem - which is really only being touched upon here - is AmigaOS is really quite decrepit compared to other OSs. You might attract a few old timers or retro experimentalists but that's it. Don't expect the hoards the x86 fans expect, there's a lot of stiff competition for users in the alternative OS scene in the x86 world and those systems don't have the limitations that AmigaOS has.

Essentially you need a completely new OS with an Amiga look and feel and emulators / sand boxes for backwards compatibility. This OS should be cross platform to begin with so there's no CPU wars to worry about.

---

There are no easy paths, no easy option.

The PS3 may have its issues but it is a relatively easy option with opportunities for growth and *no competition*.

Do that (and/or a Mac mini port) then start looking at a new OS and other platforms

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DiskDoctor 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 22:32:01
#351 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Feb-2009
Posts: 544
From: Rzeszow, Poland

Sorry, just read first and most recent post. I have a family, man!

My thoughts are exactly as @minator said.

Why that question? All I particularly want is Amiga. Actually most recent AOS. On any hardware cheaper than IBM iSeries, thus affordable for a freak with a credit card. There's no problem in it for the time being though it used to be. If x86 version boosted up OS4 sales (I doubt so), I think pros and cons would make the decision already. Face it, it's a business logic.

If I wanted x86 I'd definitely get AROS/iMica set which is great and cheap.

As for PPC - there are still tons of Macs minis (got one and waiting), also PS3. Who says one needs a brand new Amiga hardware?... I thought anyone just wants Amiga OS on whatever, working and possibly cheap.

All Hyperion / AInc wants is to sell as many OS4 copies as possible. Since the plan goes fine, is viable and secured (see above), why bother.

So my reply would be: why bother?

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 23:04:12
#352 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@minator

Ok, so the PPC440ep is too slow. Given more or less sensible values of too slow. We all know this.

Would an MPC8610 be adequate for the next 12 months or so, while we wait for something better? (let's say it had about the same price tag as the SAM440ep when similarly equipped). Or MUST the next system be on par with a Core2 Duo?

Just asking. Cause it's such a simple chip to route, it could actually be done in a couple of months.

EDIT: I know I promised to stay away, but seriously, suddenly someone starts asking sensible questions here, next thing you know it'll be a civilised discussion again.

Last edited by olegil on 24-Mar-2009 at 11:04 PM.

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Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 23:15:21
#353 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
If AROS hasn't managed to do it (it being attracting those millions of potential users everyone seems to think are out there) in a decade, then why on earth would OS4 manage it within a reasonable timeframe?



AROS has 1/2 the features of AOS4, ie. Incomplete, not as usable as AOS4/MorpOS
WHY?? Because it's free. Something people work on in their spare time. i.e. A company doesn't collect $200 for each copy sold.

You are comparing Apples and Oranges.





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AmigaHeretic 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 23:19:23
#354 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@minator

Ok, so the PPC440ep is too slow. Given more or less sensible values of too slow. We all know this.

Would an MPC8610 be adequate for the next 12 months or so, while we wait for something better? (let's say it had about the same price tag as the SAM440ep when similarly equipped). Or MUST the next system be on par with a Core2 Duo?

Just asking. Cause it's such a simple chip to route, it could actually be done in a couple of months.

EDIT: I know I promised to stay away, but seriously, suddenly someone starts asking sensible questions here, next thing you know it'll be a civilised discussion again.




Does it not seem reasonable to have a system that costs $399 for a netbook, $399 for a Laptop, $399 for a 'complete' desktop?

That what "computers" cost these days.

I can't for the life of me see why people want to 'reinvent the wheel' by designing who new motherboards!! Motherboards where they are taking this 'cell phone' esque CPUs and layoing, printing, manufacturing entire motherboards. Crazy.

I mean I think the only reason these days you would want to build a custom motherboard was if you came up with new technology like Amiga did back in 1985.

It's craziness!


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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 23:28:08
#355 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@olegil

Quote:
Ok, so the PPC440ep is too slow. Given more or less sensible values of too slow.


It is not about the speed man! it is TOO EXPENSIVE for such old technology
which has no perspective and is on farewell voyage in desktop computing!!!

Nothing more, nothing less!

All the best,

D.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 23:38:23
#356 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
@olegil

Quote:
Ok, so the PPC440ep is too slow. Given more or less sensible values of too slow.


It is not about the speed man! it is TOO EXPENSIVE for such old technology
which has no perspective and is on farewell voyage in desktop computing!!!

Nothing more, nothing less!

All the best,

D.


Right now the SAM is expensive and the OS cost itself is reasonable.

But consider for a moment that all the work that would be required for x86 conversion would simply flip around that circumstance. Now the hardware will be cheap, but the OS will be $500 a copy because the potential user base will still be small and then that would be the only way to re-coup any expenses.

And people will still bitch and not buy. Because not only is the OS then $500, but you'll need specifically an ASUS xxxx model motherboard (as an example). People will bitch about why it needs to be that motherboard and why do they need a 2nd PC now to run as their Amiga.

In the meanwhile the core loyalists who bought SAM and AmigaOnes and Peg2s to run OS 4.1 will be betrayed as development on PPC would be slowed.

Then they are left with just about nobody.

x86 is the way to go if you have the means. Hyperion does not appear to have the means.

You want x86, support AROS for x86. Thats the only realistic game in town for that.

Consider for a moment where Hyperion is at. Very very small firm. Has a good partner in a firm with PPC hardware that helps with distribution. Support is easily controlled by having limited hardware and good familiarity with it. Its very unlikely they have the resources to tell Acube they are going to up and go PC now. And why screw around with a mutually beneficial relationship?

x86 would *maybe* make sense if they were able to get a wealthy investor interested, or perhaps if they took their firm public. But you can only undertake something if you have the resources, and they appear not to.

I'm behind the idea conceptually. But we need to get our community's head out of the clouds on this. x86 will take a lot of $$$$ to make happen. Unlike AROS, Hyperion is a for-profit business.



Last edited by fairlanefastback on 24-Mar-2009 at 11:51 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 24-Mar-2009 at 11:46 PM.

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number6 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 23:42:09
#357 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10300
From: In the village

@fairlanefastback

Off-topic - noticed your sig change...

Quote:
AOS 4.1 finally arrived! Hoping to try on my Peg2 soon!


Please tell us what you think in one of the Peg2 threads.

#6

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 23:47:46
#358 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@fairlanefastback

Off-topic - noticed your sig change...

Quote:
AOS 4.1 finally arrived! Hoping to try on my Peg2 soon!


Please tell us what you think in one of the Peg2 threads.

#6


My twins were born 03/12. So I have had zero time to mess with it. But I will as soon as I do!

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 24-Mar-2009 at 11:52 PM.

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 24-Mar-2009 23:59:11
#359 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

All in all, everyone's made great points, whether for or against the move to another PPC platform or a new CPU entirely; however, given that the few non-technical, non-financial reasons against seem to carry the most weight amongst the forum's readers, I'd like to suggest a new name for the web site: Amigahubris.net.

In all seriousness, though, cheers to everyone that's contributed. Whether Hyperion takes note or not, they can do nothing but benefit from having such vocal and passionate customers--assuming we give them our money, as so many have pointed out.

Back to the techincal (and the PS3, because it's my favorite PPC platform right now): A software-based graphics subsystem running on the six available SPEs would surely be faster than any Voodoo card ever produced, and would probably compete quite favorably against the older Radeon cards.* Whether OS4 ever makes an appearance on the PS3 or not, it's worth keeping your eye on PS3 Linux development.

* I have nothing to back that up. It could be and probably is hooey, but I don't think anyone here has done any high performance Cell/BE programming, so....

Last edited by Trev on 25-Mar-2009 at 12:00 AM.

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 0:05:53
#360 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 714
From: Arizona

@Trev

Well, since you have decent financial resources maybe you could lend/give/invest money to Hyperion as an incentive to port OS4 to another platform?

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