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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 11:21:10
#401 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 708
From: Arizona

@Interesting

Wow, that is good news. Who knows, maybe we'll see AROS ported to PS3 now or even OS4.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 11:28:19
#402 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

Quote:

I agree that porting to PPC Mac is not a long-term solution and I'm also not a fan of supporting hardware which is no longer being manufactured, but the fact remains, that even if all the obstacles for an x86 port didn't exist, right now a MacPPC port would be a much better investment than going for x86.

Well, going PPC in 2002 was also not a long term solution... It took 5 years to do so... Now what ? Do we go for another not long-term solution, that will take more time than expected, won't open the OS to anyone, and finally discover we're in front of a wall ? Or just move on, *right now* ?

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itix 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 11:34:52
#403 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@eniacfoa

Quote:

I think if most people did view it as a true amiga OS, it would have received much more support.


I think it is just because nobody is interested on Amiga out there.

Quote:

Aren't the AROS people working on something else now too?
sounds like AROS doesnt even do it for them...


Some (?) developers left AROS to develop Anubis but there are still AROS developers left.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 11:39:03
#404 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
There are people who use C64's an classic amiga's everyday. just like your mac folk.
that doesnt mean I should build a new computer platform based on 6502's or 68k's. fit for the trash bin simply means - in comparison with current HW - and you know it.


So tell me, what is it that you can't do properly on Mac PPC hardware, which is so important to most people, that you can do on current PC hardware?

Quote:
if we go PPC mac, its like we've lit a torch but we are still in the dark ages plus its dead end, we will be in the same position we are now in a short period of time...the fuel in that torch will not last long.


I agree that porting to PPC Mac is not a long-term solution and I'm also not a fan of supporting hardware which is no longer being manufactured, but the fact remains, that even if all the obstacles for an x86 port didn't exist, right now a MacPPC port would be a much better investment than going for x86.

Quote:
People want horsepower. they want it for games, they want it for creative applications, they want it for many more reasons.


No, not all people want horsepower, most people care about what they can do with the machine and how nice it is to use. But now what we're onto this "horsepower" thing, give me some examples of specifically what tasks on a modern computer require the kind of horsepower, which PPCs can't provide.


yeah not 'all' people want horsepower....but the ones that dont want horsepower are NOT going to pay big $$$ for a computer that has horsepower that looked good a decade ago.

Plus - if most people didnt want horsepower?...well....theres a loooottttt of new PC's being sold...millions....mainly all on the back of this years CPU is faster than last years.

So again, I'd have to state that the vast majority of users want horsepower. They dont want excuses on why they have to pay an arm and a leg for a computer that is slllooowwww...they want to know that their machine wont be outdated in 5 minutes.
Thats a key thing customers request when buying a pc (in my experience)...

Do I seriously need to sit here and list tasks and applications that perform better with more horsepower? Im sure you can do it if you really try!

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 11:50:50
#405 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote:
@everyone


Do you still believe that if we had all the software that other platforms have we would be here arguing about x86 or PPC?




yes I do, because PPC is expensive and has no real benefit over x86 anymore.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 11:55:21
#406 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@Leo

Quote:
Well, going PPC in 2002 was also not a long term solution... It took 5 years to do so... Now what ? Do we go for another not long-term solution, that will take more time than expected, won't open the OS to anyone, and finally discover we're in front of a wall ? Or just move on, *right now* ?



Well the best for us would be to stay on the 600Mhz PPC for the next 10 years!
Now we have a financial crisis in the world , so perhaps the mainboards will
be 30 cheaper! Not the mention that the possibility of gaining some new users
is equal to an temperature of absolute zero!

All the best,

D.

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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:05:08
#407 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@eniacfoa

Quote:
yeah not 'all' people want horsepower....but the ones that dont want horsepower are NOT going to pay big $$$ for a computer that has horsepower that looked good a decade ago.


Apparently quite a lot of people have ordered Sam boards, besides Mac PPCs which I suggested would be a better investment, don't cost big $$$.

Quote:
Plus - if most people didnt want horsepower?...well....theres a loooottttt of new PC's being sold...millions....mainly all on the back of this years CPU is faster than last years


CPUs are getting faster not because people want a faster CPU every year, but because that's what drives the PC market. I don't think I need to explain to you how it works. There are a few power-crazy die-hard gamers who always want the fastest of everything as soon as it comes out, but that is not the majority, and those would not be potential users of AmigaOS anyway.

Quote:
Do I seriously need to sit here and list tasks and applications that perform better with more horsepower? Im sure you can do it if you really try!


Yes, I want to hear your opinion, I want you to tell me what it is in which you think PPC chips do not perform well enough, but x86 does. Just list a few which you think is relevant, I'm sure it won't take too much of your time.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:07:36
#408 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3394
From: Unknown

@eXec

Quote:
Well the best for us would be to stay on the 600Mhz PPC for the next 10 years!


Nah! I'm quite sure that we will have a more powerful Amiga, PPC based.

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:09:08
#409 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5887
From: Work

@COBRA

Apparently fast enough:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BT1299hgI0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUyFqpLWZgA

Last edited by olegil on 25-Mar-2009 at 12:14 PM.

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TheDaddy 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:10:49
#410 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@eniacfoa

>>yes I do, because PPC is expensive and has no real benefit over x86 anymore.

You are very welcome to start porting it over to x86 then...

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:30:27
#411 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
yeah not 'all' people want horsepower....but the ones that dont want horsepower are NOT going to pay big $$$ for a computer that has horsepower that looked good a decade ago.


Apparently quite a lot of people have ordered Sam boards, besides Mac PPCs which I suggested would be a better investment, don't cost big $$$.

Quote:
Plus - if most people didnt want horsepower?...well....theres a loooottttt of new PC's being sold...millions....mainly all on the back of this years CPU is faster than last years


CPUs are getting faster not because people want a faster CPU every year, but because that's what drives the PC market. I don't think I need to explain to you how it works. There are a few power-crazy die-hard gamers who always want the fastest of everything as soon as it comes out, but that is not the majority, and those would not be potential users of AmigaOS anyway.

Quote:
Do I seriously need to sit here and list tasks and applications that perform better with more horsepower? Im sure you can do it if you really try!


Yes, I want to hear your opinion, I want you to tell me what it is in which you think PPC chips do not perform well enough, but x86 does. Just list a few which you think is relevant, I'm sure it won't take too much of your time.


Define a 'lot'. I think thats a perception that they received more orders that they had planned for, but in reality how many machines were sold?...maybe you would have the same situation if there was an x86 AOS, where orders exceed the planned initial demand. I think thats likely. I stated it would generate the largest cash flow through sales Ainc/Hyperion have ever seen (if sold at a reasonable price- NOT $500) and I completely stand by that statement.

Sure, the crazy die hard gamers have the crazy overclocked water cooled machines, but that doesnt mean most people are still running 600mhz machines either.

I think PPC is too expensive. I never meant PPC cant do this or that... x86 can provide significant horsepower much cheaper and not only that, everyone already has one, which means we dont have to run out and buy expensive PPC machines to run AOS.. All we need to buy is the OS and some software, which dramatically reduces the entry costs to being an amiga user.

Do you think amiga has blown, squandered and pi ssed away enough money for this to have happened? I sure do.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:37:40
#412 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote:
@eniacfoa

>>yes I do, because PPC is expensive and has no real benefit over x86 anymore.

You are very welcome to start porting it over to x86 then...


am I? or would Ainc/Hyperion sue me?

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opi 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:38:17
#413 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@COBRA

Quote:
besides Mac PPC


But there's no AmigaOS for Mac PPC?

Quote:
There are a few power-crazy die-hard gamers who always want the fastest of everything as soon as it comes out, but that is not the majority, and those would not be potential users of AmigaOS anyway.


While I agree people don't need 8 core monster with a graphic card that sucks more power than my fridge there are some legitimate areas where "home user" would love some spare CPU juice.

Quote:
I want you to tell me what it is in which you think PPC chips do not perform well enough, but x86 does.


That would be PPC chips that OS4 runs on or any PPC chips? If any, I think I'd be happy with G5 box as home computer (we're talking home usage, not work, right?). Fastest what can you get currently is Pegasos G4. Playing HD content (you need to see "Five centimeters per second" in HD to understand why one need HD. I was sceptical before that ) is one thing. People are taking lots of pictures now. Dealing with 300 pictures you took at trip in RAW can take a while on slow computer. Webpages that uses lots of JS frameworks (and now are usbale thanks to WebKit ports) can sucks your CPU dry (yesterday I noticed that Blip.pl (clone of Twitter) makes my computer crawl and taxes CPU at 100% all the time. It was a bug and it was fixed, still). Reencoding movies, and I do that now and then, when my N800 is not able to play content "as is" is painful process. PII can reencode DVD quality MP4 movie in ratio 3 seconds of work to 1 second of output movie. My AMD64 desktop can crunch 30 minutes of same content in 4 minutes.

That would be my "why I need some spare cycles in my home computer" reasons.

Again, I don't think "home user" needs high end monster in daily activities, still, something above 1.6Ghz Penium M class would be nice.

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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:43:25
#414 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@eniacfoa

Quote:
Define a 'lot'. I think thats a perception that they received more orders that they had planned for, but in reality how many machines were sold?...maybe you would have the same situation if there was an x86 AOS, where orders exceed the planned initial demand. I think thats likely. I stated it would generate the largest cash flow through sales Ainc/Hyperion have ever seen (if sold at a reasonable price- NOT $500) and I completely stand by that statement.


Sure, but that's not the only way to sell a lot of copies of OS4, as I was explaining earlier, there are other ways which take much less work.

Quote:
Sure, the crazy die hard gamers have the crazy overclocked water cooled machines, but that doesnt mean most people are still running 600mhz machines either.


Nobody said most people run 600MHz machines, and remember that Mac PPCs are available up to 2+GHz Quad-core G5's.

Quote:
I never meant PPC cant do this or that...


What did you mean then, when you said that "ppc macs are almost worthy of the trash bin"? If they can handle nicely the everyday tasks people do on computers, then what makes them worthy of the trash bin?

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opi 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:45:12
#415 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@thread

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:51:28
#416 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:
Nah! I'm quite sure that we will have a more powerful Amiga, PPC based.


And by that time x86 will be 32 core with integrated Larabe, and we will get than
gforce 9800gtx support...


all the best,

D.

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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 12:59:23
#417 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@opi

Quote:
But there's no AmigaOS for Mac PPC?


Neither is there AmigaOS for x86. If you go back a page you'll see I was suggesting that getting OS4 ported to Mac PPCs would be a much simpler and more realistic option than going for x86.

Quote:
That would be PPC chips that OS4 runs on or any PPC chips?


Let's say we limit it to existing Mac PPC hardware, after all that's what was dubbed "worty of the rubbish bin" a few posts back :)

If a 1066MHz G4 can play 1080p HD content smoothly, then I'm sure a 1.7GHz G4 Mac, or a 2+ Ghz Dual/Quad G5 Mac would do even better, so as far as image or video decoding/encoding/processing is concerned, with an efficient OS and properly written code it should be able to handle the needs of most people, and more, don't you agree?

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:18:55
#418 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 622
From: Melbourne

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@SHADES

Quote:

SHADES wrote:
I can't agree on your cost statement as a con to port to x86. Although AROS is of an old standard, 90% of it is already ported to x86 and I'm sure some of this code could cut down development time drasticly. Certainly cost of obtaining a H/W base is going to come down drasticly allowing people to develop for x86 and help port if needed or at least create drivers.


Development costs money; that money has to be spent before a single product is sold. Where will that money come from? Don't have enough money, and it never get's finished; that's why there are so many failed ventures out there. And no, I don't think that any AROS code could be used. I don't think that the AROS source code is close to what Amiga OS 4.1 is at all.

Quote:
I don't see why people would leave the AMIGA community just over a x86 codebase. Why? it's so "available" and up to date and fast and there are plenty of embedded platforms on x86 too. Heck I just read about one for cars on TomsHardware.

I didn't say that at all.

Quote:
As for your further comment on extra users, where are they now? porting to Peg didn't make any huge advance, in fact, I doubt it made much impact at all. The expense of yet another HIGH priced, underpowered non expandable AMIGA H/W platform is also only going to keep user numbers down and people will once again be forced to look at emulation to keep their hobby OS alive. The future development of that OS is now in danger as it's no longer worth porting when the users become too few. At least on x86, just about anyone can become a user even if AOS stays a hobby OS.


I am not privy to their reasons for porting to the Peg II. Maybe the possibility of giving more developers access to a machine, combined with the fact that Peg II owners are already Amiga enthusiasts.

Hans


Development DOES cost money, so why put it in to boards/ports that no one/handfull will buy to use! Most can't afford them and can do it (a lot faster) with emulation on a PC running someone elses OS! Keep porting to expensive H/W that DOES require Mega$$
to sell to a userbase that is maybe 1000 ppl is making Development harder and harder and more expensive.
It makes no SENSE.

It was a statement to try and understand where you are coming from. I don't understand your thinking, I was trying to explain mine.

I would very much like to know porting to Peg II made development easier. There is no hardware other than whats out there and that can only be SMALL. imagine they applied that way of thinking to x86. Do you think that would have widened their potential user/development base???

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:21:03
#419 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 622
From: Melbourne

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@vision

Quote:

vision wrote:
@Hans

Well answered, but I don´t agree in 2 points:

- I don´t think porting to X86 will add "just a few more" users. I think THOUSANDS will jump in, for the same reasons as us (or have you forgotten why do you like Amiga?): Quicker and responsive OS and also easier to use.

How many people use AROS right now? How different would it be if Amiga OS 4.x were ported minus backward compatibility so that it had zero apps? Adding backward compatibility (which includes a PowerpC emulator, etc.) would take even more time and resources, which adds to the cost of reaching those users.

Quote:
- The work needed for the change is not that impossible. It could be even some kind of agreement to use AROS as base, so starting from that it could be much easier improved, but even if it was done from scratch, it can be done.

I never said that it was impossible, and no, using the AROS code is not a good idea; not if you want Amiga OS 4.x anyway.

Hans


When I suggested using AROS code, it was to help in development of the port to x86, not to clone it. I'm sure SOME of it is helpful, drivers or whatever. Seeing as though the old 3.x sources were used in 4.x development as a base, and also for AROS, it has got to help improve porting times and it is freely available.

Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 01:40 PM.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:21:24
#420 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

But MacPPC is past since two years now ! :)

Why would you want to use outdated and unsupported hardware ?

Can people for once look forward and not backward ?

PPC Macs aren't manufactured anymore. Why would you build a market on not manufactured anymore machines... Where is the dynamic in here ?

See ? PPC market is so well and alive that we have to bet on machines that aren't manufactured anymore...

Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 01:24 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 01:23 PM.

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