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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 15:58:27
#481 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
@SHADES
Quote:

That's very nice of you to not charge, but I have to pay for those apps anyway on the Winblowz OS, I would rather use AOS and there should be some reward. Heck i bought MUI for My 1200 and Wordsworth and countless other apps and games, AmiIRC too etc...

You don't have to pay for VLC, nor you have to pay for XChat, nor you have to pay for OpenOffice, nor you have to pay for any GUI toolkit on Windows.


Oh, don't get me wrong ;) i agree, and you are correct, I did however buy similar for AMIGA and would continue to do so. I bought MS Office not open office, just btw ;)

All I'm saying is there is still ways to get money and not do it completely for free, you are %100 correct that it won't be as much revenue than u would make on the winbloz platform, but then again, it's a much smaller userbase and even accepting that, you could still get something for your trouble from users. that's all.
i'd buy software for it.

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whose 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:00:03
#482 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Posts: 892
From: Germany

@SHADES

The problem with all your arguments is, that they rely on "would be" "should be" "may be" and a user base, that is just talking about purchases, but is in no way showing any serious interest (where is AROS now, technically? How long does it exist now?). There were no polls about the hardware that should be used for a x86 OS4 recently, if there were some I didn´t notice, I bet there is absolutely no "2nd hand machines for a fistfull of bucks!" option!

So, you constantly argue about "old, unimpressive hardware" and, in the same breath, advertise just the same! You see the problem you have? You rely on the price only, but you don´t want to see that the price that you would prefer could never be reached with OS4 on x86. In no way.

We all know that unspecific x86 hardware (not specific OS4 hardware!!!) is much more cheaper than e.g. SAM, but it is even much more cheaper than specific x86 hardware like Macs! You wanna tell us, that peeps like you would buy such hardware AND the 150$ OS on top?

Come on, get serious now and stop using this very thin arguments!

Simply show us, that PPC hardware is still in the stock of our dealers in production run quantity and we will start to believe you, that this hardware will never be sold to users. You can´t, and you know it. You can speculate about PPC sales in the future only, but only time will tell, if you are right or if the PPC people are. Regardless how often you start to argue about that.

The only result you get from this endless, fruitless and hopeless discussions is, that outside people, yet interested in AmigaOS on PPC, will very likely loose that interest forever. Even if OS4 would be running on x86 in a couple of years. Because these people want to see a clear direction, no "may be"s all the time.

Face it: You´re not the middle of the world, nor "we" (the PPC people) are. But there is a middle of the Amiga world: The machines that are actually available and that can be used to actually work with.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:03:38
#483 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 955
From: Burkina Faso

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
But so what, it stating the obvious that x86 would be the best future. But we need to be realistic that presently there is no one to hear our song and answer it with a solution realistically.


We will go x86.... perhaps in OS5, but x86 is the only future!

All the best,

D.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:05:29
#484 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@whose

Quote:

whose wrote:
@SHADES

The problem with all your arguments is, that they rely on "would be" "should be" "may be" and a user base, that is just talking about purchases, but is in no way showing any serious interest (where is AROS now, technically? How long does it exist now?). There were no polls about the hardware that should be used for a x86 OS4 recently, if there were some I didn´t notice, I bet there is absolutely no "2nd hand machines for a fistfull of bucks!" option!

So, you constantly argue about "old, unimpressive hardware" and, in the same breath, advertise just the same! You see the problem you have? You rely on the price only, but you don´t want to see that the price that you would prefer could never be reached with OS4 on x86. In no way.

We all know that unspecific x86 hardware (not specific OS4 hardware!!!) is much more cheaper than e.g. SAM, but it is even much more cheaper than specific x86 hardware like Macs! You wanna tell us, that peeps like you would buy such hardware AND the 150$ OS on top?

Come on, get serious now and stop using this very thin arguments!

Simply show us, that PPC hardware is still in the stock of our dealers in production run quantity and we will start to believe you, that this hardware will never be sold to users. You can´t, and you know it. You can speculate about PPC sales in the future only, but only time will tell, if you are right or if the PPC people are. Regardless how often you start to argue about that.

The only result you get from this endless, fruitless and hopeless discussions is, that outside people, yet interested in AmigaOS on PPC, will very likely loose that interest forever. Even if OS4 would be running on x86 in a couple of years. Because these people want to see a clear direction, no "may be"s all the time.

Face it: You´re not the middle of the world, nor "we" (the PPC people) are. But there is a middle of the Amiga world: The machines that are actually available and that can be used to actually work with.



And WHERE does the current offering get us exactly? That's a big no where, that's where.

People aren't buying them! there is no MASS AMIGA H/W take up, people can't afford it or can't justify it! It's making the community SMALLER.

the term "They" is make less and less mony with every attempt. How is that constructive? How does that proivde a future and upgrade path?
The Userbase is getting smaller and the hobby is getting harder to justify.

Maybe these "What Ifs" "would be" "should be" need a re examination and do actually hold some merrit.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:05:31
#485 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@SHADES

Quote:
if they are struggling, it's also fair to assume, low quantity, high price, slow selling H/W to run their product on is not going to help matters, it's going to make them far worse.


Spending money they likely don't have in an environment where loans are hard to get to do a x86 port helps them even less, because its unlikely they can even entertain that at this time. You are looking at the better endgame without really looking at what it would take to get there. All your argument will do I think is encourage them to quit all together. On the plus side I suppose that could finally jumpstart AROS support.

Its like saying during the start of WWII, I have a brilliant plan, we take out Berlin tomorrow! Sure thats great, but if you don't have the resources to undertake that with any chance of success its better to keep fighting smaller battles that at least keep you alive. You all want x86. Great. But no one has the means to give it to you right now.

Quote:
just give us you product, we have the H/W, we will buy it, yes it will need a lot of work to get it to run.


You keep magically thinking an x86 port means it will support whatever x86 machine you already own. Thats not the case. You likely don't have the hardware. It may not be as expensive as a SAM, but it will still cost you money to get it and the x86 OS version would cost more.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:06:15
#486 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:07:52
#487 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@SHADES

Quote:
if they are struggling, it's also fair to assume, low quantity, high price, slow selling H/W to run their product on is not going to help matters, it's going to make them far worse.


Spending money they likely don't have in an environment where loans are hard to get to do a x86 port helps them even less, because its unlikely they can even entertain that at this time. You are looking at the better endgame without really looking at what it would take to get there. All your argument will do I think is encourage them to quit all together. On the plus side I suppose that could finally jumpstart AROS support.

Its like saying during the start of WWII, I have a brilliant plan, we take out Berlin tomorrow! Sure thats great, but if you don't have the resources to undertake that with any chance of success its better to keep fighting smaller battles that at least keep you alive. You all want x86. Great. But no one has the means to give it to you right now.

Quote:
just give us you product, we have the H/W, we will buy it, yes it will need a lot of work to get it to run.


You keep magically thinking an x86 port means it will support whatever x86 machine you already own. Thats not the case. You likely don't have the hardware. It may not be as expensive as a SAM, but it will still cost you money to get it and the x86 OS version would cost more.


And your suggesting re-making the WWII gun to fire 2009 Ammo at what? the Windows Army? Linux? no?? how about Mac?

That's not competition, that's suicide for both the ammo manufacturer and the gun.
p.s. sorry for the blank reply. I got a cut finger and it's hurting a lot.

Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:10 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:09 PM.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:12:38
#488 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

Quote:

but then again, it's a much smaller userbase and even accepting that, you could still get something for your trouble from users. that's all.
i'd buy software for it.

Well, the user base is smaller indeed. But why would the users have to pay for something they would get for free in a normal market (ie: win, mac, or linux) ?

My point is that there is no market. Charging money for anything (from video players, to Linux distributions, like PegXMac) isn't a solution.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:13:08
#489 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@fairlanefastback


They DO have the cash. The money has been spent desinging the various version of SAM!


Acube, a hardware firm, is who spent cash on designing the various versions of SAM. NOT Hyperion. And SAM was made not just to be an Amiga, it was made to be an embedded market board.

Yes Hyperion needed to spend some money to port the AmigaOne version of the OS to SAM. But thats certainly a lot less of an expense as they already had a PPC version to work from.

Quote:

Why does Hyperion want their "own" hardware?? I don't get why the SAM exists? I mean certainly they are not selling SAM/OS as an embedded device or ever plan to.



SAM exists because a hardware firm called Acube made an embedded market board and as Amiga fans they decided to see if Hyperion would want to port AOS 4.x to it. For their own enjoyment and at the same time to get some more hardware sales in.

Its not like Hyperion commissioned the board or anything!

The only positive for Hyperion in limited hardware is easier to support, less drivers to write. I'm sure they wish there was a way they could easily run on more widespread, cheaper hardware. Unfortunately nothing that easy has come along like SAM did in the meantime.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:35 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:22 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:21 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:15:15
#490 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

but then again, it's a much smaller userbase and even accepting that, you could still get something for your trouble from users. that's all.
i'd buy software for it.

Well, the user base is smaller indeed. But why would the users have to pay for something they would get for free in a normal market (ie: win, mac, or linux) ?

My point is that there is no market. Charging money for anything (from video players, to Linux distributions, like PegXMac) isn't a solution.


It's a small market.
I pay for a virus killer on the Windows. i'd pay for one on AMIGA too, happily.
Most would. There are products that people still pay for. That's all I am getting at. Your efforts shouldn't go unrewarded. It's not an argument, just a statement that I, a User, Would contribute $ to your efforts. I am 1.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:17:42
#491 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@fairlanefastback


They DO have the cash. The money has been spent desinging the various version of SAM!


Acube, a hardware firm, is who spent cash on designing the various versions of SAM. NOT Hyperion. And SAM was made not just to be an Amiga, it was made to be an embedded market board.

Yes Hyperion needed to spend some money to port the AmigaOne version of the OS to SAM. But thats certainly at less of an expense as they already had a PPC version to work from.

[qoute]
Why does Hyperion want their "own" hardware?? I don't get why the SAM exists? I mean certainly they are not selling SAM/OS as an embedded device or ever plan to.


Quote:

SAM exists because a hardware firm called Acube made an embedded market board and as Amiga fans they decided to see if Hyperion would want to port AOS 4.x to it. For their own enjoyment and at the same time to get some more hardware sales in.

Its not like Hyperion commissioned the board or anything!

The only positive for Hyperion in limited hardware is easier support, less drivers to write. I'm sure they wish there was a way they could easily run on more widespread, cheaper hardware. Unfortunately nothing that easy has come along like SAM did in the meantime.


AROS is working on that cheaper H/W. There must be another reason that they haven't told us.

Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:18 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:18:47
#492 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@SHADES

Quote:
IF the community gets behind them, MAYBE we can.

There certainly would be a lot more people buying it NOW. I bet we'd all chip in too, and there is also the AROS code to grab any drivers or usefull port stuff to help minimise the dev costs. If you don't suggest alternatives, I can see the Hobby going away.


The community has suggested and screamed for this for years and years. And that was when companies were in a better position to possibly do that. They chose not to then. How can we expect them to afford to do this now? And on the volunteer front AROS moves very slowly. We simply do not have enough doers who are capable. If Hyperion got a big investor I'd be first in line to beg them to put the money to a x86 port. But short of that everyone is crying out for something no one is in a position to provide.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:23 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:21:41
#493 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@SHADES

Quote:
IF the community gets behind them, MAYBE we can.

There certainly would be a lot more people buying it NOW. I bet we'd all chip in too, and there is also the AROS code to grab any drivers or usefull port stuff to help minimise the dev costs. If you don't suggest alternatives, I can see the Hobby going away.


The community has suggested and screamed for this for years and years. And that was when companies were in a better position to possibly do that. They chose not to then. How can expect them to afford to do this now? And on the volunteer front AROS moves very slowly. We simply do not have enough doers who are capable. If Hyperion got a big investor I'd be first in line to beg them to put the money to a x86 port. But short of that everyone is crying out for something no one is in a position to provide.


I don't know.
They won't take community money or pool funds.
Surely it's going to make them less and less monsy trying to support fewer and fewer users!
How can they continue along that path! If it's hard now, what's it going to be like in 5 years when there's 50 users left!

Maybe we need to help them and they need to accept help. I don't know why it is this way, but it looks like this may end the OS development completly if someone doesn't budge or get real rich real quick.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:23:13
#494 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

The small market is being used as an excuse to charge money for developments. I don't agree. That's it. You're still free to contribute if you want to. You have the choice and aren't forced to do it.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:23:22
#495 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
the entry barrier will be so low (not having to buy an expensive computer on top of an OS) that you will find many more paying customers within the amiga community, not just the ones that have big $$$ to spend on a '2nd' computer.


This bears repeating. You would have to buy a 2nd computer. Because the chances that your PC will have the exact motherboard needed for the intial port would be very slim. The chances you'd have the supported video card already would be slim. And while that 2nd machine would be cheap, the OS would now be very expensive, probably negating any bottom line dollar savings. Yes you'd get a more powerful machine. That would be the bonus. But you'd have to wait years for this to happen, and that assuming they started today.

Quote:
but if I could spend $200 on an x86 version of AOS? no probs, Id buy it...its not going to break the budget for a hobby OS..


The current version is already $150. How could they possibly afford to only charge $200 for an x86 version that requires a specific narrow PC hardware spec that still only a small amount of people will buy?

Quote:
I have asked this question before and didnt really get a straight answer... what ARE the approx costs of building an x86 version with support for 2 cores?


I would suspect hundreds of thousands, if not more. But whether I am right or wrong is meaningless. Whats meaningful to us all is Hyperion has decided its would not be financially worth it already. Thats really the bottom line isn't it?


1-2 thousand sales of a $200 dollar x86 version would generate hundreds of thousands of dollars. Plus Ainc say they are cashed up.

again u sort of jumped into the argument i was making halfway and need to go back to uhh page 19-20 to see the start of it. I know It would take a large investment.
I know hyperion cant possibly pay for it, we all know that, it doesnt need to be said...

I am saying - and ill be brief, want more detail see earlier posts in this thread - Ainc should have gone x86 in the 1st place...PPC was a dead end then and is a dead end now as far as desktops go, paying for MAC PPC support is a waste of money coz in a few short years they will be dumpster trash plus its a dead end so we will be back to square 1 fast and Ainc could have (and if you believe them) still can afford to pay for the x86's versions costs but are too busy with money fraud, law suits and trying to steal money from investors with scam stories of AA2 and how it will take over the world.

As far as I know AOS is still Aincs property. I havent heard anything about any judgement that says otherwsie. until then I am going to assume it is Aincs property. I think that is the bottom line.

PS - you keep saying this thread is 'just' about hyperion...your not the thread police and secondly, the topic is also based on AOS and theres more to the story than hyperion, so why dont you just drop that part....if you want me to defend points, go back and read my arguments, i went through with what u are saying with cobra

Last edited by eniacfoa on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:35 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:25:44
#496 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@eniacfoa

Quote:

eniacfoa wrote:
@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eniacfoa

[quote]the entry barrier will be so low (not having to buy an expensive computer on top of an OS) that you will find many more paying customers within the amiga community, not just the ones that have big $$$ to spend on a '2nd' computer.


This bears repeating. You would have to buy a 2nd computer. Because the chances that your PC will have the exact motherboard needed for the intial port would be very slim. The chances you'd have the supported video card already would be slim. And while that 2nd machine would be cheap, the OS would now be very expensive, probably negating any bottom line dollar savings. Yes you'd get a more powerful machine. That would be the bonus. But you'd have to wait years for this to happen, and that assuming they started today.

Quote:
but if I could spend $200 on an x86 version of AOS? no probs, Id buy it...its not going to break the budget for a hobby OS..


The current version is already $150. How could they possibly afford to only charge $200 for an x86 version that requires a specific narrow PC hardware spec that still only a small amount of people will buy?

Quote:
I have asked this question before and didnt really get a straight answer... what ARE the approx costs of building an x86 version with support for 2 cores?


I would suspect hundreds of thousands, if not more. But whether I am right or wrong is meaningless. Whats meaningful to us all is Hyperion has decided its would not be financially worth it already. Thats really the bottom line isn't it?

Quote:

1-2 thousand sales of a $200 dollar x86 version would generate hundreds of thousands of dollars. Plus Ainc say they are cashed up.

again u sort of jumped into the argument i was making halfway and need to go back to uhh page 19-20 to see the start of it. I know It would take a large investment.
I know hyperion cant possibly pay for it, we all know that, it doesnt need to be said...

I am saying - and ill be brief, want more detail see earlier posts in this thread - Ainc should have gone x86 in the 1st place...PPC was a dead end then and is a dead end now as far as desktops go, paying for MAC PPC support is a waste of money coz in a few short years they will be dumpster trash plus its a dead end so we will be back to square 1 fast and Ainc could have (and if you believe them) still can afford to pay for the x86's versions costs but are too busy with money fraud, law suits and trying to steal money from investors with scam stories of AA2 and how it will take over the world.

As far as I know AOS is still Aincs property. I havent heard anything about any judgement that says otherwsie. until then I am going to assume it is Aincs property. I think that is the bottom line.


Very good point.
I'd also pay up to $400. Heck i had to for Windows almost.
Darn Ainc. Who knows what Ainc are up to other than watching the userbase dry up.

Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:44 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:43 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:27 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:28:25
#497 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
The small market is being used as an excuse to charge money for developments. I don't agree. That's it. You're still free to contribute if you want to. You have the choice and aren't forced to do it.


I agree, i do have a choice.
I also dont agree with the justification of the small market making people pay unrealistic ammounts for little use. All my debates have said just that, it's not a workable arrangement esp for a Hobby OS which is what it has become.
I never said I would pay huge ammounts of $$. I can't afford to or justify it. That being said, it also doesn't have to be free. Yes it is a hobby OS meaning a small userbase.

Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:40 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:34 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:32 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 04:28 PM.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:45:04
#498 ]
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Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@SHADESQuote:



Very good point. I'd pay $400 even. Heck i had to for Windows almost.


yeah i think people forget windows isnt cheap...they think its free lol...

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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:47:09
#499 ]
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Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@eniacfoa

Quote:
ill start with the last bit because its the most relevent...the point is to stop 'wasting' money on things that are going to get us nowhere. That includes lawyers and PPC band aids.


First of all your question was "do you think that amiga inc has blown, squandered, stolen, pis sed away etc... enough resources for this x86 version to have happened?" and it's completely irrelevant, how much money was spent on lawyers, and what that money would have been enough for, had it not been spent on lawyers. That money is gone, and how much it is, is not going to make any difference whatsoever to the future of the platform. My suggestion is to look at the "now", and "how to make the best of current opportunities" (which is what Hyperion are doing), instead of dwelling on what could have been done differently in the past.

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 16:51:17
#500 ]
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Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

This whole thing is B.S. anyway.


I mean if ACube came out with the the SAMx86 board today, being the same board but with a w/2ghz Core2Duo stuck in the middle, but for $100....

....well then you ALL be drinking the x86 Cool-Aid.

I can hear it now, "Oh, I hope Hyperion ports to the new ACube board. Oh, and, pass the Cool-Aid please!"


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