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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 15:43:10
#661 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@Leo

Quote:
Who talks about supporting two architectures at the same time ? I'm talking about porting the app for once... The goal is to *move on* to a new architecture, not to support two architectures at the same time. It's not like Apple where there are millions of PPC users that you cannot leave. We have hundreds of users. Either they switch, and they get support. Or they don't, and they do not get support anymore. Of course the Amiga can't afford to support several architectures...


So you want Hyperion to abandon their newest customers starting today then? PPC support to end immediately? All forces to bear in the x86 effort ASAP? You think really that Hyperion would be crazy enough to do that?


I'd say most of those customers have a PC regarless and how big is the AOS takeup now anyway?

Perhaps some sort of emulation/bakward compatibility like the 68k jit emulator would need to be looked at if it was a big enough userbase to seem worthwhile or at least the current OS4.x progs be re-compiled. A lot of those progs came from x86 too like 7zip etc...
Future prospects may be the deciding factor here. Potential of client base on x86 Vs Whatever else.

Like we have all discussed time and time again, this is not in our realm of decision making.
Just open discussion of the forseen alternatives and what returns you could expect. There is a lot of future potential for buyin on x86 without having to rely on a total design for H/W in small numbers to sell their OS product. Again, decision to be made by those at the top.

i understand your point, but I think it's also just as crazy to keep developing for less and less users. how long did they have to wait to sell their OS due to no H/W? that can't be good for buisness if even the clients can't buy in.

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spotUP 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 15:43:49
#662 ]
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Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 2896
From: Up Rough Demo Squad

come on people, let this thread die now... it's embarrassing... get aros or get a sam, but most of all get over it.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 15:45:26
#663 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:

Not exactly. They admit PPC is a dead end. They take necessary decisions, and move on. They have to convince people this is a good path. And current customers choose to leave or take the boat...


So yes, you would have Hyperion abandon their latest cash paying customers, in favor of your plans. Did you get them to agree yet? If not how many more posts in this forum until you think it will work?

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 15:48:00
#664 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@spotUP

Quote:

spotUP wrote:
come on people, let this thread die now... it's embarrassing... get aros or get a sam, but most of all get over it.


Meh, let everyone be free to discuss. There is no harm and perhaps more positives will arrise out of it. I am happy to continue unless someone gets too abusive to which at that time, i'll leave. :)

I see this as very positive.
At the very very least it shows an interest in the AOS product from all sides regardless of the end result. ;)

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 15:50:54
#665 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

Quote:

So yes, you would have Hyperion abandon their latest cash paying customers, in favor of your plans. Did you get them to agree yet? If not how many more posts in this forum until you think it will work?

I don't have any plans, nor want to convince anyone. I'm just saying what I'd do if I was developing & selling an OS. Maybe this wouldn't work and I'd declare bankrupt after a month. Or maybe not. So what ? This happened to a lot of companies before, this will happen to a lot of new companies. But staying with an outdated OS and a couple of fans as userbase isn't an option either.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 15:51:23
#666 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@SHADES

Quote:
I'd say most of those customers have a PC regarless and how big is the AOS takeup now anyway?


AGAIN, even if they port to x86, it does not mean it will run on any and all PCs! More than likely if would not have the drivers for what you happen to have. They'd have to announce a hardware compatibility list. It would likely be quite limited for quite some time. You'd probably need to go out a buy what is supported and build a machine based on the supported list.

Then people will say, well I'll buy it when you support Nvidia cards. I'll buy it when you support Intel NICs. I'll buy it when you support 32bit processors as well as 64 bit. Or they will be like "what! I have to buy a whole new machine to meet the limited hardware requirements!".

You'll get more users all right, just not as many as you think I believe.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 15:54:20
#667 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@Leo

Quote:
But staying with an outdated OS and a couple of fans as userbase isn't an option either.


Really? Funny, Hyperion chose that path and since the AmigaOne version have come out with three other versions since, plus a major update. Apparently its an option for them and you are dumbfounded that they've gone on so long somehow like that. Well, guess what, they may spend years more on the same path. You've said you peace it appears. Thats cool. In the meantime though there is nothing wrong with the rest of us enjoying the PPC ride right?

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 15:56:50
#668 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 631
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@SHADES

Quote:
I'd say most of those customers have a PC regarless and how big is the AOS takeup now anyway?


AGAIN, even if they port to x86, it does not mean it will run on any and all PCs! More than likely if would not have the drivers for what you happen to have. They'd have to announce a hardware compatibility list. It would likely be quite limited for quite some time. You'd probably need to go out a buy what is supported and build a machine based on the supported list.

Then people will say, well I'll buy it when you support Nvidia cards. I'll buy it when you support Intel NICs. I'll buy it when you support 32bit processors as well as 64 bit. Or they will be like "what! I have to buy a whole new machine to meet the limited hardware requirements!".

You'll get more users all right, just not as many as you think I believe.


I agree! it would be limited to a chipset or brand. Maybe Asus. Thing is, it's available, it's there, no shortage and besides, it's no different on custom built H/W for people wanting those things. The difference is, all that H/W is available to code to on x86 if there is enough interest!

If people want your 64 bit or 32bit Nics or whatever else you just put in your post, someone is going to have to design it from scratch if you choose the other way and that could take years or not at all and in that time, you don't sell your OS again.
It will cost a lot more too and have less runs due to it being custom and that keeps costs high ... agian you're back to the already debated circle with that thinking.

that's why x86 is suggested. the H/W is industry tested and available. Choose a chipset as the baseline. there is no Dev cost or waiting for that 3rd party to materialize and gage costs and returns. Yes, it will mean increased Code costs in the beginning, that may be ofset however by the buy-in and potential returns offered.

Last edited by SHADES on 26-Mar-2009 at 04:05 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 26-Mar-2009 at 04:04 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 26-Mar-2009 at 03:58 PM.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 16:05:06
#669 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

Quote:

Really? Funny, Hyperion chose that path and since the AmigaOne version have come out with three other versions since, plus a major update.

Yes, funny, hundreds of users out of hundreds of millions users worldwide used it...

If I was to develop and sell an operating system, I wouldn't be statisfied with that. Any hobby OS would do as much.

Three machines, two of which were buggy as hell. One machine where you can't even read a DVD at full speed. Two versions, none of which throw away legacy problems... And 7 years for that. Where is the establishment ?

During the same time, BeOS started from scratched (that was in 1991), saw at least 4 *major* revisions, and was made available to the most selling computers of that time: PPC Macs and intel PCs.

And attracted way more users, software, developers,... than OS4 has today...

That's funny indeed...

Last edited by Leo on 26-Mar-2009 at 04:12 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 16:16:34
#670 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@Leo

Quote:
During the same time, BeOS started from scratched (that was in 1991), saw at least 4 *major* revisions, and was made available to the most selling computers of that time: PPC Macs and intel PCs.


Which was funded by a guy made uber-rich from his days at Apple. Perhaps you can ask him for money for this AOS effort??

Somebody has to pay for this. You said its not you. If you are so gung-ho at least find us someone who can pay!

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clebin 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 17:43:26
#671 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1691
From: Cardiff

@fairlanefastback

Where's the return-on-investment for the next major PowerPC release?

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 18:20:04
#672 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@clebin

ROI for who, Acube, Freescale? (Not sure if you mean chip release?)

If you mean for Hyperion OS release, so far they seem to think the effort to make Classic, SAM, and Peg2 versions have been worth it. I'm guessing a SAM FLEX version will come out in due time. Maybe if we are lucky it will be worth their time to figure out a stable Mac Mini (PPC) port. I'd welcome any new platforms they can muster where they feel its worth their time.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Mar-2009 at 06:25 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Mar-2009 at 06:24 PM.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 18:47:09
#673 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

Quote:

Somebody has to pay for this.

You don't need to pay developers working on their spare time.

You cannot found Amiga development. Because there is not any return right now.

The only way to make big developments is to go the free way...

Or to endlessly stay with 3 users on outdated un-adapted hardware.

You choose...

Last edited by Leo on 26-Mar-2009 at 06:48 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 18:58:58
#674 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
[quote]

You don't need to pay developers working on their spare time.

You cannot found Amiga development. Because there is not any return right now.

The only way to make big developments is to go the free way...

Or to endlessly stay with 3 users on outdated un-adapted hardware.

You choose...


Leo, AROS is that OS, NOT AOS.

You are on the wrong forum site. The forum site you want for the Open Source Amiga-like OS is located here:

http://aros-exec.org/modules/news/

Since you want free free free the bounties you likely will not want to contribute to are located here (in case you have a change of heart ever):

http://www.power2people.org/projects.html

You can download your new free OS here:

http://aros.sourceforge.net/

AOS is for paying customers. And this board is AOS-centric. While many users may want to take AOS open-source, the owners don't (whether you think thats Amiga, Inc. or Hyperion). And beyond that ownership is currently being disputed in a court case in Washington State. So even if Hyperion was convinced by you and the rest of the x86 horde (the one with something against AROS??) to go open-source its unlikely that they could legally maneuver that at this time. The case itself may take years more yet.

P.S.
The forum for your free AROS on this board is here:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewforum.php?forum=28&2221

If you still think AOS should be free and open source so so bad. You can contact the major players at Hyperion here via email to voice your opinions to the actual decision makers involved:

http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=53

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Mar-2009 at 07:16 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Mar-2009 at 07:04 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Mar-2009 at 07:01 PM.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 19:22:17
#675 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

Quote:

Leo, AROS is that OS, NOT AOS.

AROS is as outdated as OS4... Both do not provide a modern kernel with needed features such as memory protection, full resource tracking, SMP, 64bit, etc..

And both cannot be updated to support it without breaking everything. This is the last time I repeat this...

There's no use in keep on using the current base as there's no way to add these features.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 19:31:31
#676 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

Leo, AROS is that OS, NOT AOS.

AROS is as outdated as OS4... Both do not provide a modern kernel with needed features such as memory protection, full resource tracking, SMP, 64bit, etc..

And both cannot be updated to support it without breaking everything. This is the last time I repeat this...

There's no use in keep on using the current base as there's no way to add these features.


So get behind Anubis then:

http://anubis-os.org/background/

Or make your own OS.

Or organize the people you expect to work for free on what you want.

Yapping here about your OS desires are not going to get the job done.

Why SPAM a board dedicated to an OS you find useless and outdated? Do you do the same thing on C64 boards or OS/2 boards?

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Mar-2009 at 07:33 PM.

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HenryCase 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 19:33:05
#677 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 706
From: Unknown

@Leo
Did you get time to look at the Anubis OS link I showed you before? If not, here it is again:
http://anubis-os.org/home/
Read the words on the 'Background' page.

EDIT: fairlanefastback beat me to it!

Last edited by HenryCase on 26-Mar-2009 at 07:33 PM.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 20:05:21
#678 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

Several attempts were made in using Linux kernel as a base for modern OS. They all failed or ended up being another Linux distribution... For now I don't see why this would be different for Anubis. Linux was written by one guy, in his room, with Unix in mind... Unix is the opposite of intuition (not the Amiga word, the definition of "intuition")... Sounds like a rather bad foundation for a desktop OS... Unless you call yourself Apple.

I don't see why this would change for Anubis... But I'll keep an eye on it.

Last edited by Leo on 26-Mar-2009 at 08:29 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 26-Mar-2009 at 08:29 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 26-Mar-2009 at 08:28 PM.

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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 21:20:20
#679 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4876
From: New Zealand

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Several attempts were made in using Linux kernel as a base for modern OS. They all failed or ended up being another Linux distribution... For now I don't see why this would be different for Anubis. Linux was written by one guy, in his room, with Unix in mind... Unix is the opposite of intuition (not the Amiga word, the definition of "intuition")... Sounds like a rather bad foundation for a desktop OS... Unless you call yourself Apple.

I don't see why this would change for Anubis... But I'll keep an eye on it.


Ok, so the current Amiga OS is a dead end for you, as is AROS. However, using the Linux kernel as a basis for a new Amiga like OS is also not what you'd want (BTW, Mac OS X uses the Mach kernel, not Linux). So what exactly would satisfy you?

Hans

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 21:40:41
#680 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1586
From: Unknown

Quote:

So what exactly would satisfy you?

A true NG Amiga ? What AmigaOS would have become if source hadn't been kept closed for such a long time ?

I know MacOSX is based upon a Mach kernel, I was generally talking about Unix...

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