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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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Hans 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 21:45:01
#681 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4838
From: New Zealand

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

So what exactly would satisfy you?

A true NG Amiga ? What AmigaOS would have become if source hadn't been kept closed for such a long time ?


And what exactly is a true NG Amiga to you?

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 21:58:35
#682 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@fairlanefastback

You are so cute!

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:06:22
#683 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:

eniacfoa wrote:
@wegster


Quote:

wegster wrote:
@eniacfoa

[quote]Ainc claim to have plenty of cash. Ainc have ways outside of OS4 of making money. All the eggs dont have to be in the one basket. Ainc doesnt need 1 million users to be commercially viable.
It never was the number one computer...you only have to carve out a niche...

I dont think it would take the miracle you speak of if Ainc wanted to do it.

If we had a talented company president who genuinely wanted to see Ainc grow as a computer platform, someone who wasn't a fradulent criminal, I dont think the situation would seem as bleak as it does now.


I do believe you're living at least somewhat in dreamland here...AInc has spent what to date on OS4 development? Somewhere around $25,000USD, plus some $ for a port to a reference PDA? They also made many promises, all broken. Kent Arena? OS5 'better than OSX'? (How about, where is it at ALL?) 'Amiga hardware?' How many on the OS4 dev team would even *work* for AInc if somehow they wound up with OS4 intact by some miracle?

Do you really think a port to x86, with working JIT, would cost so little that AInc would actually *have* the cash, and actually spend it?

Unlikely.



if you go back and read the 8 pages or so of debate we had you will find more detail.

I know they wont do anything for AOS.

its really annoying having people come in to your argument after they've read 1% of what youve said and then they give you replies that are meaningless.


edit - people who dont like the thread are actually free to ignore it![/quote]

Sadly, I have read every *page* of this thread. And yes, it *is* kind of annoying when you feel like someone hasn't read something 'already stated,' no? (I bet we could cut this thread down to 4 pages max of *real discussion* as well..sadly).

However, no, I don't recall every single post, just several posts where you seem to believe AInc would spent any money they may or may not have, which is what I responded to.

So, without clarification by you, in some what, 30 page long thread now, I still read, and respond, as I did - AInc having money or not does little for OS4, given prior history of non spending on OS4 by them. If you'd like to clarify, or even simply give a link to a post by you that should explain the above...I'll gladly read it.

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amitv 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:06:59
#684 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2006
Posts: 342
From: Unknown

@all

Update site troika:

http://www.troikang.com/projects

http://www.troikang.com/reference_design_pictures

W the powerpc

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:10:28
#685 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote:
@SHADES

>>THOSE WHO WANT AOS 4.x ON AN AVAILABLE CHEAP PLATFORM ALTERNATIVE OPENLY VOICE THEIR OPINION HERE FOR DISCUSSION.



1) Have you got a big truck full of cash?
2) Have you got a licence from Amiga Inc.?

If the answers to the above questions are a "NO" then don't bother replying.

On this site there is very small talk about what we have got available (SAM+OS4.1), how to improve it, what can be done with the available hardware, projects like the ones happening with the Minimig (www.minimig.net) and a lot of talking about Linux, OSX, AROS, MORPHOS, AOS on x86 (something that doesn't even exist) and hypothetical situations.

I find it weird, intentionally irritating and very sad.

Unless you have got something concrete to show us, like a port of Amiga OS to x86, fully functional, with loads of software to play with then I can't see the point of this discussion.
These topics have been discussed for the last 10 years, and still there is no AOS for x86.
the only people who could actually do this are Hyperion and they have said it before that it's not planned.


Please stop telling others what to do. Hit AR or contact a Staff member if you take *real* offense to something he posts.

He at least is contributing a valid point of view, not just spamming, whether you like it or not. Doesn't *everyone* want 'OS4 on an available, cheap platform'? I think we do.

And yes, the word before forum is... 'discussion.' (just not spam, and repeating the same thing ad nauseam)

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:13:14
#686 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
@wegster

Quite a nice thing when a moderator starts to speak about
the rules on forums and then between the lines insults
on the very same way it`s members. Cool!

All the best,

D.



Yes. I removed the flame part of my post, but I do hope you see the point and stop repeating the same thing without reading others.

Note - you are always free to file an AR on me as well. As I am now participating in this thread, 'as a member,' I have removed myself from the pool of people to process any ARs in the thread itself.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:15:16
#687 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
@wegster

Quote:
Do you *really* not realize how utterly unlikely even if AInc 'wins' the court case, that they would be *capable* of *ever* releasing another version of AOS? The entire set of rights to OS4 is not Hyperions to give, even if they were so inclined to do so. And it is not so simple as 'ok, we'll code for a few days,' especially for a company like AInc, with barring Jamie Krueger, no indication of any real talent existing.


Answer me on just one thing?!!!!!!

WHO is the owner of the Amiga OS??

Answer with just one , max two words !

All the best,

D.


One word:
Unknown.

Real answer, because it's pointless to ask some question and limit it to a non-answer or an incomplete one. Oh wait, the real answer was already given. Why did you not choose to understand it?

It's not up to what either, or any of us say, until there is clear ownership. And if AI were to 'win,' they would not have enough of the OS to do much of *anything* with.

Saying 'AI will save the day' while ignoring reality, just doesn't do much.

*shrug*


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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:19:47
#688 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

Switching over to a completely different architecture would be orders of magnitude more work, then there's the issue of the compatibility and emulation

This is not an issue.
- OS4 applications need to be recompiled (run faster than ever).
- 68k applications are emulated using UAE (better compatibility than ever).

The JIT was supposed to be there as a temporary solution, because there were no native applications. Now there are enough native applications. So no need to implement a new JIT. Or the transition will never end ;) And that's not really a transition ;)


I see your point and logic in the above, just don't agree. Due to the amount of time already 'lost,' losing more apps just isn't a good idea, IMHO...referring to those OS4 closed source apps that may today be abandoned.

While I agree with the idea, as you said, at some point legacy should be abandoned, I think OS4 needs all the compatibility it can have, without well, turning into AROS, and intentionally breaking even OS4 (PPC) -> OS4(any other arch) compat. I'd be quite happy to see both 68k and OS4 PPC inside a sandbox, though (or two, as the case may be), and the rest of the OS 'move onwards.' But, that's not for us to decide..

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:23:33
#689 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

An OS that takes advantage of todays and future's technologies (ie: multiple core,..). An OS that has no legacy that prevents it from evoluting, an OS that's processor independant and can be "easily" ported to another architecture if needed. An OS with inovative features, and with each version, new inovative stuff, not found elsewhere. An OS with what made the Amiga great (this wasn't the boot time, nor the fact that you could power it off just when you want ;)): simplicity, intuition in command lines, datatypes (but next generation, not limited to one pass loading,..), locale lib, Feelin (now that's targeted toward innovation, beauty, etc...). An OS easy to use, but with lots of things for the power user (DOpus 9 comes to my mind)...
An OS that's quite small but can scale if needed (of course: virtual memory for demanding applications,..): current OS doesn't scale at all and totally falls down when it's under pressure (see Haiku for the ability to give the frontmost app more priority). An OS that's stable and can run weeks/months without having to reboot. An OS that's a pleasure to watch and use (we have gfx cards that can display millions of colours, so we don't need to stick to ugly grey palettes as we had in the 90's on tv monitors).

etc... A true new generation OS.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:40:29
#690 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Leo

Quote:
So what's better ? please current hundreds of fans ? Or get 100x more people use your solutions ? (and I bet this 100x people would include these very same fans who were crying loud anyway ...)

I'm ready to bet the same would happen if OS4 was to switch to x86... The company has to drive the market, not a bunch of fans, and do whatever it takes to achieve that.


What's better? Well, depending on if you ARE one of those fans, there's the point many still seem to miss. I'd take 1000 sales over 100 any day, and don't know any business who wouldn't.

Therefore, we're stuck with - there is something we are missing, or that is preventing Hyperion from doing such a thing?

License/contract/legal? Quite possibly.
Money - cost to get to x86, even *if* they believe they'd make it up 'after it's done'? Possibly.
Some other plan to recoup some $ from OS4, that does not involved x86? Possibly.

I do agree they need to drive the market, but they also need legal rights 'solidified' as well as some $ to do so, otherwise..plans have to be 'adjusted.' I doubt the current 'hundreds of fans, in general,' are going to get a few hundred thousand together to 'help much,' either - look at the AmiZilla bounty, and that's been a LONG time. Nor will a few hundred sales be enough to cover expenses of the x86 port, at least not in a way that would allow for many new users (integrated OS4/PPC emulation + 68k emulation, etc).

Nothing a few million wouldn't solve, of course...sigh, and resolution to a certain court case, perhaps..


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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:45:01
#691 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@SHADES

Quote:

SHADES wrote:
@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
[quote]
that x86-OS4 fanboys would have cried very loud,

I bet that Apple PPC-Fans cried out loud when Apple announced the switch to x86... Yet Apple never sold so many Macs than now they have switched to x86.

And I'm ready to bet the same would happen if OS4 was to switch to x86... The company has to drive the market, not a bunch of fans, and do whatever it takes to achieve that.

Apple did that. Several times. Commodore (and any one who bought it later) miserably failed to do so. Here is the result.

Btw a lot of people cried very loud for more communication... This has yet to happen...


Completely agree. There is no communication and the already damaged userbase is now getting lost unable to pay for a product they would actually use.

This non communication is doing nothing now but hurting the existing userbase and people, like myself, are hitting their heads trying to nut out a more stable future, based on current market offerings and trends, including/like Apple.[/quote]

I don't disagree regarding communication. However, there is a limit in there somewhere - it's tough for a small company to 'please everyone on forums,' and it's also a recipe for disaster. It would be 'better' if people were aware of some roadmap, future plans as they change/if they do, etc...but the Freidens *have* shared some things with us.

And, just answer this - if *you* personally owned a business, whose primary product was in the middle of a seemingly never ending court case, which could take away your primary means for potential income...how much would *you* be sharing at a given moment on an open forum?

I would hope..not much, no matter how frustrating it is to many of us.

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:51:00
#692 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 702
From: Arizona

@all

Even though the arguments in this thread get tiring at times and yes, some of us do sound like parrots, I have to say that I admire the passion of everyone here. It really shows the love that we have for the Amiga regardless of the outcome, whether it lies in x86, PS3, ARM or whatever_________you can fill in the blank.

This has been one of the livelier debates on Amigaworld.net and even though it has been frustrating at times, I'll also admit that it has been educational for me as well. I have been shown perspectives that I hadn't even considered before. I hope it has been the same for others here as well. I also appreciate Wegster's patience with us and for allowing us to become a bit boisterous at times without shutting down the thread. I believe that debate, although ugly at times, is healthy. Nobody said that the things worth having come easily, quickly, or cheaply. This thread is proof of that!!!



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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 22:52:40
#693 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote:
@everyone

Bored of this...goodbye...


You'll be back, I believe you've said this before

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 23:02:01
#694 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@TheDaddy
Didn't take long, did it?

Post 612:

TheDaddy says he's bored and leaving
Quote:

TheDaddy wrote:
@everyone

Bored of this...goodbye...


A while TEN posts later:
Wait, I'm back...again :-/

Last edited by wegster on 26-Mar-2009 at 11:30 PM.
Last edited by wegster on 26-Mar-2009 at 11:29 PM.
Last edited by wegster on 26-Mar-2009 at 11:29 PM.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 23:05:33
#695 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote:
@SHADES

>>things are getting worse and people are not willing to invest

Are they? They seem the same to me as for the last 10 years, actually better...


Easy example, even for some to do.

Look and search old threads. Count the number of 'new user' posts when A1s were 'sort of available.'

Now, count the number of 'new user' posts for SAM.

Care to make a bet?

I'll be nice, I won't include in the bet, the percentage of SAM owners that were already OS4 users on classic or A1 already, versus REAL new users.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 23:09:30
#696 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@TheDaddy

Quote:

TheDaddy wrote:
@SHADES

Here is an advice:

If you really want OS4.1 and it looks like you REALLY, REALLY want it, sell your quad pc and buy a SAM+OS4.1

That is what I did...

see the difference?



I'm assuming you're not serious?

If you are....sigh.

Some people need to do REAL work, and other uses, for their computer.
Many could not do it on OS4 in the first place, let alone OS4 on the SAM.

The above is the exact reason SAM isn't exactly flooding the gates with new users - it only works on the truly fanatic, or those with *much* disposable income, compared to people buying $400, portable, netbooks, with more power. 'Something else is needed' if the user base is to grow.

Most of us agree on that point, at least.

The rest of us are just having various arguments over whether 'port to x86' is some magic bullet, bypassing the rules of law and finance, or not.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 23:22:26
#697 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
An OS that takes advantage of todays and future's technologies (ie: multiple core,..). An OS that has no legacy that prevents it from evoluting, an OS that's processor independant and can be "easily" ported to another architecture if needed. An OS with inovative features, and with each version, new inovative stuff, not found elsewhere. An OS with what made the Amiga great (this wasn't the boot time, nor the fact that you could power it off just when you want ;)): simplicity, intuition in command lines, datatypes (but next generation, not limited to one pass loading,..), locale lib, Feelin (now that's targeted toward innovation, beauty, etc...). An OS easy to use, but with lots of things for the power user (DOpus 9 comes to my mind)...
An OS that's quite small but can scale if needed (of course: virtual memory for demanding applications,..): current OS doesn't scale at all and totally falls down when it's under pressure (see Haiku for the ability to give the frontmost app more priority). An OS that's stable and can run weeks/months without having to reboot. An OS that's a pleasure to watch and use (we have gfx cards that can display millions of colours, so we don't need to stick to ugly grey palettes as we had in the 90's on tv monitors).

etc... A true new generation OS.


So what are you doing to organize this effort, since you feel all you need is some volunteer programmers? And why try to get the AOS 4 programmers on this through all the posts on this site? Dosen't it make more sense to post on the AROS forum to try to entice guys who already do free work to just do different free work for you instead? Why must it be the guys who do AOS 4 work?

Also I'm not sure what OS you are using currently though that only works in "ugly grey palettes" on TV screens??

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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 23:26:37
#698 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
An OS that takes advantage of todays and future's technologies (ie: multiple core,..). An OS that has no legacy that prevents it from evoluting, an OS that's processor independant and can be "easily" ported to another architecture if needed. An OS with inovative features, and with each version, new inovative stuff, not found elsewhere. An OS with what made the Amiga great (this wasn't the boot time, nor the fact that you could power it off just when you want ;)): simplicity, intuition in command lines, datatypes (but next generation, not limited to one pass loading,..), locale lib, Feelin (now that's targeted toward innovation, beauty, etc...). An OS easy to use, but with lots of things for the power user (DOpus 9 comes to my mind)...
An OS that's quite small but can scale if needed (of course: virtual memory for demanding applications,..): current OS doesn't scale at all and totally falls down when it's under pressure (see Haiku for the ability to give the frontmost app more priority). An OS that's stable and can run weeks/months without having to reboot. An OS that's a pleasure to watch and use (we have gfx cards that can display millions of colours, so we don't need to stick to ugly grey palettes as we had in the 90's on tv monitors).

etc... A true new generation OS.


So, how do you fund such an OS to be delivered in a timely fashion, when even porting 'just poor old AOS' (or MOS, or AROS), a simpler task, has taken this long?

I don't think we're all in massively different 'wants', for the *most* part, but whether it's:
- legal (keeping the name etc)
- compatible, not, or sandboxed for back-compat
- feasible
- wise, from a user standpoint
- able to develop into a business with any return

The last one of course, is optional, depending on your OS 'base' of choice.

How's Haiku coming? Others?
(haiku actually I DO want to try, but it's 'been a long time coming,' similar to OS4, etc..and 'not done yet.' )

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 23:39:25
#699 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@wegster

Leo already answered how it would be funded in a previous post, basically, it would not be:

Quote:
You don't need to pay developers working on their spare time.


Quote:
The only way to make big developments is to go the free way...

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Mar-2009 at 11:39 PM.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 23:39:42
#700 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1578
From: Unknown

Quote:

- legal (keeping the name etc)
- compatible, not, or sandboxed for back-compat
- feasible
- wise, from a user standpoint
- able to develop into a business with any return

- legal: what do you need the name for ?
- compatible: what for ? It's not compatible at all. You may have APIs quite close, but that's it. You have fast beautifull native apps though, including UAE.
- feasable ? why wouldn't it be ?
- there's no business to be made using the Amiga right now. So forget about it.The goal would be to create a true AmigaOS NG. There's no money involved. After all people keep saying they develop and use their Amiga only for fun, right ? Now this wouldn't be different. There's no way you may finance any development on the Amiga right now. This doesn't mean there's no way to develop a new OS.
If the project ever comes to an end and meets the expectations, then business could be imagined... But we are far far from it... So let's forget about it.

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Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle