@Leo

Quote:

There's no money involved. After all people keep saying they develop and use their Amiga only for fun, right ? Now this wouldn't be different. There's no way you may finance any development on the Amiga right now. This doesn't mean there's no way to develop a new OS.

So you are trying to evangelize here that we should discontinue support of Hyperion so that they give up any hope of AOS 4.0 as a commercial product, and then, with the Friedens having more spare time on their hands we try to convince them to donate time to your OS instead??

Isn't the better approach to setup a website with your design goals and then post in Alt Amiga Operating Systems for volunteers for the project (that I assume you'll manage for free)?

Personally I don't see you getting any more support than AROS has, in which case your Next Generation OS will be likely antiquated by the time it comes out.

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @wegster Leo already answered how it would be funded in a previous post, basically, it would not be: Quote: You don't need to pay developers working on their spare time. Quote: The only way to make big developments is to go the free way...

Leo wants an NG Amiga OS that's basically built from scratch. This would take a team of full-time paid programmers years to do. If a rag-tag bunch of people were to take this on as a spare time project, it would take eons, unless you can somehow convince a huge number of people to work in a coordinated fashion (and hope that they don't make a mess due to "too many hands spoiling the broth").

The same applies to porting Amiga OS 4.x to x86. Unless you can somehow motivate a huge group to spend all their free time working on it, you'll be waiting for a ridiculously long time.

How is the Firefox port to Amiga OS going?
How is the OpenOffice port to Amiga OS going?
Has anyone started working on Ignition since the author open-sourced it?
While we're at it, JAmiga is open-source and is something that some people desperately want. When was the last time that any activity on that project was seen?

What is the thing about this open-source NG Amiga OS (or Amiga OS on x86) that will have developers flocking to take part, for free? What is it, that will ensure that progress is fast enough that it's still an "NG" OS by the time that it's done?

Hans

EDIT: I see that you don't think that this is all that feasible either

Last edited by Hans on 27-Mar-2009 at 12:10 AM.
Last edited by Hans on 27-Mar-2009 at 12:08 AM.

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

Quote:

How is the Firefox port to Amiga OS going? How is the OpenOffice port to Amiga OS going?

Why do you think there is no such port ?

I'm not trying to evangelize anithing.. I'm just saying that if the problem is the money, then there is a solution. If the problem is Amiga Inc. retaining the rights, then again there is a solution...

Waiting in the hope that within a year new hardware will magically appear, that a firefox port will magically appear and that memory protection, that has been said was impossible to implement correctly would also apear is useless... Cause this won't appear...

Now for the hardware, there is a solution: x86. For the lack of modern features: there is a solution: a new modern OS. And I bet having something modern, better tools (memory protection helps development quite a lot), better support for Unix stuff (ie: threads,...) would help a lot in porting such monsters. etc..

_________________
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@Hans

Quote:

Has anyone started working on Ignition since the author open-sourced it?

I didn't even know Ignition had been open sourced until I googled it earlier on.

@Leo

So, your solution has a name: Anubis. It fulfills all your points! Support them and see, what will be reached in the end. Maybe an AmigaOS followup on x86 hardware or... maybe nothing really useable.

But, please, let the poor PPC people do, what they like to do, and let them do it with AmigaOS 4.x and following.

Regards

@Leo

Quote:

Waiting in the hope that within a year new hardware will magically appear, that a firefox port will magically appear and that memory protection, that has been said was impossible to implement correctly would also apear is useless... Cause this won't appear...

What exactly are *you* doing besides waiting BTW? This is what i don't get. You keep playing conceptual mastermind of the next generation future, but without any tangible resources so far as I can tell (free or otherwise). Who are going to be your minions in doing this? Or do you just like to talk about something you don't even plan to organize?

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@Leo

Quote:

Now for the hardware, there is a solution: x86. For the lack of modern features: there is a solution: a new modern OS. And I bet having something modern, better tools (memory protection helps development quite a lot), better support for Unix stuff (ie: threads,...) would help a lot in porting such monsters. etc..

I'd rather see development time being spent on developing or updating original, memory efficient apps for OS4, than porting resource hogging apps from one x86 OS to another x86 OS.

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: Quote: - legal (keeping the name etc) - compatible, not, or sandboxed for back-compat - feasible - wise, from a user standpoint - able to develop into a business with any return - legal: what do you need the name for ? - compatible: what for ? It's not compatible at all. You may have APIs quite close, but that's it. You have fast beautifull native apps though, including UAE. - feasable ? why wouldn't it be ? - there's no business to be made using the Amiga right now. So forget about it.The goal would be to create a true AmigaOS NG. There's no money involved. After all people keep saying they develop and use their Amiga only for fun, right ? Now this wouldn't be different. There's no way you may finance any development on the Amiga right now. This doesn't mean there's no way to develop a new OS. If the project ever comes to an end and meets the expectations, then business could be imagined... But we are far far from it... So let's forget about it.

Ok, well, in that case, what you're really saying is two companies, that both believe they have interests, financial and IP, should shut down, and open source it?

Is THAT one really likely?

And how is the above different than Anubis, then?

(not saying I wouldn't like open source OS4, but..it is what it is..)

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster


Quote:

wegster wrote: @Leo And how is the above different than Anubis, then? (not saying I wouldn't like open source OS4, but..it is what it is..)

Leo said this in post #678:

Quote:

Several attempts were made in using Linux kernel as a base for modern OS. They all failed or ended up being another Linux distribution... For now I don't see why this would be different for Anubis. Linux was written by one guy, in his room, with Unix in mind... Unix is the opposite of intuition (not the Amiga word, the definition of "intuition")... Sounds like a rather bad foundation for a desktop OS... Unless you call yourself Apple.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 27-Mar-2009 at 01:12 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 27-Mar-2009 at 01:12 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 27-Mar-2009 at 01:12 AM.

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: Quote: How is the Firefox port to Amiga OS going? How is the OpenOffice port to Amiga OS going? Why do you think there is no such port ?

Because there hasn't been enough interest from developers in order to do the job, which is exactly the same problem that this NG OS of yours would have.

Quote:

Now for the hardware, there is a solution: x86. For the lack of modern features: there is a solution: a new modern OS. And I bet having something modern, better tools (memory protection helps development quite a lot), better support for Unix stuff (ie: threads,...) would help a lot in porting such monsters. etc..

You've totally missed my point in bringing up these open-source projects. Where are you going to get the developers to work on your brand new open-source OS? People aren't going to come on board just because it's open-source.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote: @SHADES Quote: SHADES wrote: @Leo [quote] Leo wrote: [quote] that x86-OS4 fanboys would have cried very loud, I bet that Apple PPC-Fans cried out loud when Apple announced the switch to x86... Yet Apple never sold so many Macs than now they have switched to x86. And I'm ready to bet the same would happen if OS4 was to switch to x86... The company has to drive the market, not a bunch of fans, and do whatever it takes to achieve that. Apple did that. Several times. Commodore (and any one who bought it later) miserably failed to do so. Here is the result. Btw a lot of people cried very loud for more communication... This has yet to happen...

Completely agree. There is no communication and the already damaged userbase is now getting lost unable to pay for a product they would actually use.

This non communication is doing nothing now but hurting the existing userbase and people, like myself, are hitting their heads trying to nut out a more stable future, based on current market offerings and trends, including/like Apple.[/quote]
Quote:

I don't disagree regarding communication. However, there is a limit in there somewhere - it's tough for a small company to 'please everyone on forums,' and it's also a recipe for disaster. It would be 'better' if people were aware of some roadmap, future plans as they change/if they do, etc...but the Freidens *have* shared some things with us. And, just answer this - if *you* personally owned a business, whose primary product was in the middle of a seemingly never ending court case, which could take away your primary means for potential income...how much would *you* be sharing at a given moment on an open forum? I would hope..not much, no matter how frustrating it is to many of us.

I agree however, they don't have to diclose too much.

I'd be satisfied with as an example..
"The current issues are now understood, we also have seen this data in the adoption of our product and the ideas discussed by the product userbase and AMIGA community for AOS future production have been read and are solid. Price is one such area seriously being considered. We are looking at solutions and believe we have found one and this soultion will be explained if all goes well within x months. We thank you for your continued support and interest in the AOS product and have welcomed your ideas and suggestions. It has not fallen of deaf ears."

Just something to know that investment is continuing and in the right direction, and that the community that is interested in helping them sell/develop their product is taken seriously. (even if the community may pee them off with constant debate, it at least prooves interest.) Oh, and STICK to that dealine. Come back in x months and give updates!!! People stick around when they see progress even if it minimal

Last edited by SHADES on 27-Mar-2009 at 03:16 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 27-Mar-2009 at 03:15 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 27-Mar-2009 at 03:13 AM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@All

Do you guys believe a man should be arrested for farting in public?

"When you feel one and you start to set it free, but quickly discover that it had a bunch of friends that want out too."

I haven't read much of this thread, but this is on topic, right?

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

Want an x86 Amiga OS get AROS or wait for Anubis. Check out Syllable . . .

No one is making the kind of PPC hardware that people want or are willing to buy. SAM is overpriced and under-performing. Game consoles and Mac hardware is the next logical choice. Many already have the game consoles and PPC macs. But, the world of OS4 moves slowly. Think how long it would take to do an x86 port with all the drivers . . .

X86 is a bad move for OS4 . . . And all the yammering is a pipe dream . . .

_________________
Avatar babe - Monica Bellucci.

Quote:

Because there hasn't been enough interest from developers in order to do the job

How about this one ? It's not possible and represents too much work because the OS doesn't provide the necessary tools to do that (this includes development tools/facilities: no memory protection,... and system APIs: threads, correct GUI).

[/quote]
Where are you going to get the developers to work on your brand new open-source OS? People aren't going to come on board just because it's open-source.
[/quote]
No, of course. Some people will come because they wanted a beautiful OS. Some others will come because they liked the new functionnalities, some will come because of both. Some will come because it's AmigaOS... but put in the twentith century.. some will come simply because it's no Unix nor Windows. There would just be a dynamic there isn't now.

The thing is: there will be reasons for people to come. Reasons we can't find now (let alone the fact that the OS is outdated, I would even had, there is one reason why people won't come, and you know it all: expensive outdated hardware).

_________________
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@everyone

Maybe I got bored of reading all these posts and I missed it but where does it say that PowerPC is dead?

Link please?

_________________
www.loriano.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: Quote: Because there hasn't been enough interest from developers in order to do the job How about this one ? It's not possible and represents too much work because the OS doesn't provide the necessary tools to do that (this includes development tools/facilities: no memory protection,... and system APIs: threads, correct GUI).

But it is possible. It's a lot of work, but it's possible. Come on, Risc OS lacks full memory protection too, but they have a Firefox port. Don't try to tell me that it's not possible.

Quote:

No, of course. Some people will come because they wanted a beautiful OS. Some others will come because they liked the new functionnalities, some will come because of both. Some will come because it's AmigaOS... but put in the twentith century.. some will come simply because it's no Unix nor Windows. There would just be a dynamic there isn't now. The thing is: there will be reasons for people to come. Reasons we can't find now (let alone the fact that the OS is outdated, I would even had, there is one reason why people won't come, and you know it all: expensive outdated hardware).

So porting Firefox is too much work, but creating a new OS from scratch is not? Or do you mean an x86 port of the existing Amiga OS? Either way, the amount of work is orders of magnitude more than a Firefox port.

If you're so convinced that developers will come flocking to this project, why don't you set it all up?

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 27-Mar-2009 at 09:10 AM.

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Leo
If you object so much to the Linux kernel in Anubis OS, why not wait until it gets into a usable state then fork the project and build a brand new Amiga kernel for use with the rest of the Anubis OS code. That's less work than doing everything from scratch, but I doubt you'll get many people supporting such a venture.

Just a suggestion.

Quote:

But it is possible. It's a lot of work, but it's possible. Come on, Risc OS lacks full memory protection too, but they have a Firefox port. Don't try to tell me that it's not possible.

Guess it would have been done if it was possible...

Quote:

So porting Firefox is too much work, but creating a new OS from scratch is not?

It's much work, but it's much interesting/more fun creating a new OS than porting 15+ libs to be able to run FireFox... And I say porting but a lot of libs would need to be adapted to work on AmigaOS.

I guess this + the hard tasks explains quite well why it hasn't been done.

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@Hyperion

Don't listen to these nutters!

If PPC is still being developed stick to it! If not then port it to x86. It's simple.

Hyperion, Acube and OS4.x FOREVER!

MUWAHAHAHA!

Last edited by TheDaddy on 27-Mar-2009 at 09:32 AM.

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Quote:

If you object so much to the Linux kernel in Anubis OS, why not wait until it gets into a usable state then fork the project and build a brand new Amiga kernel for use with the rest of the Anubis OS code. That's less work than doing everything from scratch, but I doubt you'll get many people supporting such a venture.

Less work ? Ask OS4/AROS/MorphOS developers how less work it is to rewrite something so that it behaves exactly like something else...

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