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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Jun-2009 17:30:34
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@NoelFuller

Many good watches at :
http://www.uctv.tv/search-details.aspx?showID=13459

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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Jun-2009 17:41:05
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@TMTisFree

Quote:
a reply to my #27 post dealing with the Steig's paper of Jan 2009. I see nowhere a 1 Jun article either from Dandy, you or Dandy.
To clear it up my #30 read your #29 as the defensive post from your #27 where you judged serious issues of the 1.June by Real Climate. I neither expected Dandy nor me to have posted a 1 Jun article.

Quote:
If it is no worth the discussion, why pointing to it?
Because I wanted to get the thread back on discussing the science and stop the personal attacks before they go up again. I was responding respecting the requests of the AW Overlords to stay on topic and not get bogged down into this sort of tit for tat morass. I'm not sure why you pointed out another user's actions. Clearly adding an ad homimen to another ad homimen adds nothing to the a debate on the topic at hand. So even if you feel someone else made a poor arguement/statement adding your own poor statement neither forwards the discussion on the topics at hand.



Last edited by BrianK on 21-Jun-2009 at 06:33 PM.

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TMTisFree 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Jun-2009 18:54:01
#43 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Nov-2003
Posts: 1487
From: Nice, so nice

@BrianK

Quote:
To clear it up my #30 read your #29 as the defensive post from your #27 where you judged serious issues of the 1.June by Real Climate.
I don't have a clue of why you mix the PR Jan. article and subsequent defensive Feb. article with the more interesting but unrelated and now closed article of 1 June by Steig.

Quote:
Because I wanted to get the thread back on discussing the science and stop the personal attacks before they go up again.
My mimicked post was as impersonal as Fuller's one btw and not directed particularly to anyone. You just confirm your double standard.

Quote:
I denoted an ad hominem from you on your work...
Huh? I am not that masochistic.

Your whole post is meaningless btw, let move on.

Bye,
TMTisFree

_________________
The engineering approach to our non-problems: "build a better washer".
The scientific approach to our non-problems: "find a new energy source".
The environmentalist approach to our non-problems: "stop washing your shirts".

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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Jun-2009 22:27:12
#44 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@BrianK

Alas I would like to view that video but my A1 cannot do it. Roll on an amiga flash player. I am currently a bit dubious about the Gnash port because Gnash is so far behind Adobe who keep moving the target. I do have a PC but it has become so inadequate it needs replacing so I am being blinded by flash:)

I have purchased a book Just Published by Gareth Morgan titled "Poles Apart". He is a very wealthy NZ economist with a penchant for kayaking in Antarctic and Arctic waters and touring the Americas on a motorcycle among other things. His way of settling his mind with respect to Climate Change debates was to hire two teams of scientists to put the case for and against anthropogenic global warming. I have yet to read the book as I am into various technologies to cut emmissions, restore carbon to depleted soils etc.

Of course his idea of a GW skeptic would be similar to yours or mine and therefore far from the idealogues of the extreme right or left who may pose as skeptics but are in reality advocates with their pet conspiracies and cabals to fight. Gareth being intensely aware of the huge welter of information being gathered by thousands every day considered his two teams of scientists might sort it for him so he posed them a series of questions. Astonishingly to some he found the teams could agree on quite a few issues. The book promises to be a fascinating read.

Noel

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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Jun-2009 23:09:21
#45 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@TMTisFree

Quote:
From some authors I appreciate. Not that I hope this will change anything, ideologically speaking..


It is alarming to find I agree with you thus far, but of course quoting may be mere posturing for virtue by association. Here is another to add to your collection from John Maynard Keynes:
"If the facts change, I change my mind, What do you do, sir?"

In 1901 as a result of a flawed interpretation of a flawed experiment , coupled with the inability to get really good spectrographs of CO2 and water vapour, it became a supposed fact that CO2 all but totally absorbed infra-red radiation so the volume of CO2 in the atmosphere would make no difference to global warming or cooling. This view was totally overturned when the US airforce began to conduct experiments with infra-red in the interests of its high altitude bomber fleet,

So it is a fact that there is no such thing as a totally saturated layer of CO2 close to the surface of the earth even if there is a layer that is almost saturated. Nor can the multiplication of CO2 in the atmosphere produce a totally saturated layer. Vastly improved spectrography demonstrated that however effective the CO2 blanket, it has lots of holes in it as does water vapour, and of course there is barely any water vapour at all in the upper atmosphere so the CO2 up there becomes even more influential. The facts upon which climate change science is based were established 50 years ago as frequently observed. The evidence is not too hard to find yet you say you have never seen it! What you believe I leave of course to you.

Noel


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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 22-Jun-2009 2:27:12
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@NoelFuller

Quote:
I have purchased a book Just Published by Gareth Morgan titled "Poles Apart".
Thanks I'll add this to my reading list.

RE: History of CO2. I think you'd find the UCTV videos very interesting.

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TMTisFree 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 22-Jun-2009 17:34:30
#47 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Nov-2003
Posts: 1487
From: Nice, so nice

@NoelFuller

Nice quote, but I already used it in one of the previous GW threads, so you are a bit late. Anyway and anecdotally, I already changed my mind about AGW some years ago after studying the data, the Physics and using common sense. Not you it seems.

About CO², I also point you to a previous GW thread where there is a simple analytical demonstration rebutting your unsupported claim. Or as you appear interested by spectroscopy, read this study. Anyway we already have had this discussion earlier, so why bother?

Have you found time to look at the data and saw that CO² lags temperatures by ~800 years? I guess not: ice cores are so cherry-picked.

Bye,
TMTisFree

_________________
The engineering approach to our non-problems: "build a better washer".
The scientific approach to our non-problems: "find a new energy source".
The environmentalist approach to our non-problems: "stop washing your shirts".

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Plaz 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 22-Jun-2009 22:33:11
#48 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@Stephen_Robinson

Quote:
Why is this on the front page of what is primary an Amiga Website?


My theory is it has become the site's unofficial mascot and is strangely mezmerizing. Kind of like popping those little plastic bubbles.... which you shouldn't do because I'm sure there's global warming in there some where. Read this thread instead, it's more environmentally friendly.

Plaz

Last edited by Plaz on 22-Jun-2009 at 10:34 PM.

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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 22-Jun-2009 22:58:13
#49 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@BrianK

Quote:
Thanks I'll add this to my reading list.


I've just completed my first reading of "Ten Technologies to save the Planet" by Chris Goodall. I say first reading because there is a depth of research, with the numbers, that I need to get a better handle on. It's subject matter is directly relevant to the original post starting this Global warming thread, even referring to Branson's $25m prize though the sum is trivial compared to the investments in getting that first billion tons of carbon sequestered.

Each chapter stands on its own so can be read in any order although there is some method and build-up in the presentation. I started with the last chapters: BioChar, Soil and Forests.

I need make notes as the book is a handy reference containing many starting points for further evaluation and investigation.

It seems that it is quite possible to get control of our carbon emmissions through a varied portfolio of technologies and devices given the understanding and political will, two matters on which we see so many posts intended to undermine and confuse.

The proponents of various technologies may tend to overstate their claims and Goodall treats them all with a sharp skepticism but he looks into the numbers, the various lines of research, what is likliest to work and what may not and what hasn't. Do you fancy an algae farm where the algae grew so quickly it destroyed the farm? or a wheel that takes CO2 out of the air then delivers it to greenhouse plants or to machines to liquify and sequester? He is a little scathing in my opinion about organic farming, particularly when the organic farmers may have answers to the high use of herbicides in no-till cultivation, for which he finds much favour. I've always felt rather embarrassed and angry at the way NZ farming experts went to Africa and in their ignorance replaced traditional no-till cropping with ploughing. Then the rains came! Bye bye soil. A couple of weeks ago I watched on TV an organic farmer using no-till techniques.

Goodall leaves one with solid grounds for an enlightened optimism rather than uninformed wishful thinking or hopeless depression.

Contents:
Introduction
1. Capturing the Wind
2. Solar energy
3. Electricity from the Oceans
4. Combined heat and power
5. Super-efficient homes
6. Electric cars
7. Motor fuels from cellulose
8. Capturing Carbon
9. Biochar
10. Soil and forests
Putting it all together
Epilogue

Noel

Last edited by NoelFuller on 22-Jun-2009 at 11:50 PM.

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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 22-Jun-2009 23:43:39
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Plaz

Quote:
strangely mezmerizing. Kind of like popping those little plastic bubbles...


ROFL

Hah! What about extolling entertainment values? Learn rhetorical devices, study on logical fallacies, see examples of the misuse of agricultural machinery (Cherrypicking), posturing, plausible arguments proving nothing, magical thinking, crank webbery and amidst the welter of weeds the occasional shoots of real thought , science, questioning, even a little humility. At least once in every thread there is a reference to Amiga limitations.

Noel

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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 23-Jun-2009 0:39:11
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@TMTisFree

Quote:
Or as you appear interested by spectroscopy, read this study
Especially the criticisms page. It's amazing to see denialists, such as Roy Spencer, standing up against this postulate as bunk.

Quote:
saw that CO² lags temperatures by ~800 years
In some situations the CO2 does lag the start of a warming period by ~800 years. However, the warming periods last 5-10K years. The rest of the period CO2 often is at the same rate and frequently slightly leads. This shows that CO2 is unlikely to be the first cause of these particular trends. This is what about 1/8th of the trend? This also shows that CO2 does have a strong interactions and plays a role for the other 7/8ths of the warming trend.

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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 23-Jun-2009 0:40:18
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Stephen_Robinson

Quote:
Why is this on the front page of what is primary an Amiga Website?

Because worldwide climate change will happen before the Amiga come back.

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TMTisFree 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 23-Jun-2009 18:17:18
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Nov-2003
Posts: 1487
From: Nice, so nice

@BrianK

Quote:
Especially the criticisms page. It's amazing to see denialists, such as Roy Spencer, standing up against this postulate as bunk.
It comes from no surprise you are amazed that some scientists disagree with other scientists: your consensus mirage and too much reading of catastro-alarmist sites (hence the words 'deniers' 'denialists') have obviously obfuscated to you the way Science works. Your claim underlines well you have no clue of what is Science and have never did any lab experiment, have never talked to any scientific audience or have never assist to a scientific meeting and never do any Science in general. For myself I find it refreshing to have scientific sites where you can see criticisms and discussion without them being snipped because they don't fit the current climate ideology (ie UnRealClimate or ClimateProgress for example). Anyway, I don't see a postulate therein but a spectroscopic experiment followed by calculations using the obtained results, something current climatologists have forgotten for reasons previously explained. This experiment, the work by Dr Barret and many other studies (and common sense btw) support the low climate's sensitivity to CO² as demonstrated by Pr Lindzen recently using real world satellite observations (and reported here): any high sensitivity number leads to climate states Earth has never encountered in the past 600 My while CO² levels have been much higher (up to level x10) and uncorrelated with temperatures. No one with a normal brain and at least some common sense can think situation is that different nowadays. Note that I do not say humans have no influence on climate, just that CO² is probably the least factor involved, if any effect.

Quote:
In some situations the CO2 does lag the start of a warming period by ~800 years.
The Vostok data have shown that CO² most of the time (if not always) lags temperature. It clearly appears on the plot: 400000 Ky (too large to embed).

Quote:
However, the warming periods last 5-10K years.
This is correct.

Quote:
This also shows that CO2 does have a strong interactions and plays a role for the other 7/8ths of the warming trend.
Not possible if CO² lags temperature ~800 years most of the time if not always. What the plot also clearly shows is that temperatures are rarely above the 0 anomaly in the last 450Ky: warm temperatures are the exception.

Enjoy the interglacial.

Bye,
TMTisFree

_________________
The engineering approach to our non-problems: "build a better washer".
The scientific approach to our non-problems: "find a new energy source".
The environmentalist approach to our non-problems: "stop washing your shirts".

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TMTisFree 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 23-Jun-2009 20:39:47
#54 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Nov-2003
Posts: 1487
From: Nice, so nice

@BrianK

Quote:
Many good watches at
Funny to see believers always needing reinforcing mechanisms even with deficient factoids: a kind of misdirected pavlovian reflex that mimics drugs' addiction.

[The study by Oreskes is such a piece of flawed analysis that it is more a political statement than a scientific essay. But hey, one has the opium one deserves.]

Bye,
TMTisFree

_________________
The engineering approach to our non-problems: "build a better washer".
The scientific approach to our non-problems: "find a new energy source".
The environmentalist approach to our non-problems: "stop washing your shirts".

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Plaz 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 24-Jun-2009 1:08:55
#55 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

@NoelFuller

Quote:
Hah! What about extolling entertainment values? Learn rhetorical devices, study on logical fallacies, see examples of the misuse of agricultural machinery (Cherrypicking),


agricultural machinery... Yeah and all the rest too.

I put my two cents in way back in volume 1 I think. Now I'm just hanging back for the next 20 years and letting nature have the final say. By then whe should be up to about volume 150 or so.

Plaz

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Tomas 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 24-Jun-2009 15:46:01
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

Global warming hasnt been very present here in Norway this year.
Last 30 days has a temp of 1.5c below normal and we have so far not had a single summer day in june. Today was the hottest day with 19c while rest of the month we have had 10-16c and northern winds.

The max mean for this month has been only 12c versus 18-22c for a normal june. Night temps have also been very near freezing, which is unusual even for here.
There is one positive effect from this though :P The local newspaper claimed that mosquito season is now delayed until august due to cold weather.

Some areas of Norway is even worse of with under 2c below normal. Since 90s we have usually had temps of 1-5c above normal.

Last edited by Tomas on 24-Jun-2009 at 03:48 PM.
Last edited by Tomas on 24-Jun-2009 at 03:46 PM.

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Dandy 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 6:36:51
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@NoelFuller

Quote:

NoelFuller wrote:
@Dandy

Quote:


Antarctica is getting warmer, a new study shows.



And there has been much play on the observation that a good deal of the East Antarctic ice sheet has been cooling very slightly. I'm sure you have also read that this cooling is attributed to the effect of the ozone hole,



The report quoted by me says:
"Incomplete weather records led scientists to think that much of the world’s coldest continent—average temperature, around minus 58° F--was cooling."

Quote:

NoelFuller wrote:

ozone being also a greenhouse gas and the cooling beginning with it's appearance.
...



I think you got something wrong here:

Antarctic ozone hole

Quote:

Science Daily wrote:
...
Reporting in the journal Geophysical Research Letters, scientists from British Antarctic Survey (BAS) and NASA say that while there has been a dramatic loss of Arctic sea ice, Antarctic sea ice has increased by a small amount as a result of the ozone hole delaying the impact of greenhouse gas increases on the climate of the continent.
...
Although the ozone hole is in many ways holding back the effects of greenhouse gas increases on the Antarctic, this will not last, as we expect ozone levels to recover by the end of the 21st Century. By then there is likely to be around one third less Antarctic sea ice.”
...



Greenhouse gases lead to a warming - not to a cooling, as you implied: "...the cooling beginning with it's appearance."

Last edited by Dandy on 29-Jun-2009 at 07:38 AM.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Dandy 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 7:02:07
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@TMTisFree

Quote:

TMTisFree wrote:
@NoelFuller

...
About CO², I also point you to a previous GW thread where there is a simple analytical demonstration rebutting your unsupported claim.
...



I remember that you wrote in an earlier post that CO2 levels in the past had been much higher than today. This seems to be in direct contradiction to researcher's findings:

Today, CO2 is at 385 parts per million, or 38% higher than the last 2.1 million years

Quote:

Earth Institute of Columbia University wrote:

Researchers have reconstructed atmospheric carbon dioxide levels over the past 2.1 million years in the sharpest detail yet, shedding new light on its role in the earth’s cycles of cooling and warming.
...
The authors show that peak CO2 levels over the last 2.1 million years averaged only 280 parts per million; but today, CO2 is at 385 parts per million, or 38% higher.
...
In the study, Bärbel Hönisch, a geochemist at Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, and her colleagues reconstructed CO2 levels by analyzing the shells of single-celled plankton buried under the Atlantic Ocean, off the coast of Africa. By dating the shells and measuring their ratio of boron isotopes, they were able to estimate how much CO2 was in the air when the plankton were alive. This method allowed them to see further back than the precision records preserved in cores of polar ice, which go back only 800,000 years.
...
The low carbon dioxide levels outlined by the study through the last 2.1 million years make modern day levels, caused by industrialization, seem even more anomalous, says Richard Alley, a glaciologist at Pennsylvania State University, who was not involved in the research.

“We know from looking at much older climate records that large and rapid increase in C02 in the past, (about 55 million years ago) caused large extinction in bottom-dwelling ocean creatures, and dissolved a lot of shells as the ocean became acidic,” he said. “We’re heading in that direction now.”
...





_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Plaz 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 11:08:53
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1573
From: Atlanta

Quote:
Today, CO2 is at 385 parts per million, or 38% higher than the last 2.1 million years


And those samples were captured and preserved in a pristine state over the past 2.1 million years without influence from the rest of the ever changing atmosphere just waiting for today's scientist to crack open the seals and reveal the true findings.

These type of studies seem to always speak as if some one was there, witnessed and recorded the event instead of being honest and saying "this is our best theory so far."

Quote:
We know from looking at much older climate records that large and rapid increase in C02 in the past, (about 55 million years ago) caused large extinction in bottom-dwelling ocean creatures,
'

No they really don't know for certain. I'm neither pro or con on this subject in gerneral. But I'm annoyed at what seems to me to be endless political half truths and spectulation being heaped on us as irrefutible proof, which it isnt.

Personally I beleive the Sun is larger factor than any thing. Sure man is mucking things up with polution and bad resoure management and that needs to be handled. But hit the off switch on the Sun and see how fast the debate over the influence of the Sun on the climate change dies as this place turns into a cold dead rock. And just as equally turn up it's brightness by a constant 3% over decades and see how fast those little planktons (and a lot of other things) fizzle.

Plaz

Last edited by Plaz on 26-Jun-2009 at 11:11 AM.

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Tomas 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 12:40:07
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@Dandy
You are wrong. The co2 has varied between 250ppm-thousands of ppm many times and this will most likely happen again. The reason why co2 is currently low is because we are in a interglacial period in middle of deep ice age. Last 2 million years mean nothing anyways.
The current ice age started a few million years ago anyways.

Last edited by Tomas on 26-Jun-2009 at 12:48 PM.
Last edited by Tomas on 26-Jun-2009 at 12:43 PM.
Last edited by Tomas on 26-Jun-2009 at 12:40 PM.

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