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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 18-Sep-2009 19:09:14
#601 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@umisef

I had to remove part of the url you gave to get there, then make the last click:
http://discover.itsc.uah.edu/amsutemps/

Regretably through lack of a flash player plugin with OWB I cannot see the final graph. I keep saying I'll have to get another computer but never quite do it. Thanks though for the link, I was interested to see Roy Spencer's name on the page.

Noel


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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 18-Sep-2009 20:48:53
#602 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@damocles

Quote:
if the sea surface temperature is truly rising, why are we seeing an increase in sea ice?


But have you sought from scientists' publiations an answer or is this just a rhetorical question intended to imply that reports of warming are false? Certainly the site you linked to has no credibility when it comes to interpretation. With respect to the Antarctic sea ice I reported a paper in this thread and provided a link on that question at the bottom of page 21 , post #440.

For the arctic please note that ice extent is not the same thing as ice mass. Also note that the wind up there may one year drive the ice out into the Atlantic and to a lesser extent the Pacific and another year wrap it up around the polar area, as happened this year. To look at a trend you have to look over a much longer period of time. The wind pattern is discussed here (August 18)
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/2009/081809.html

For the current report - see discussion of context - see here:
http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/index.html

For the rest of your comment umisef has given you answer.

Noel

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Interesting 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 18-Sep-2009 22:29:49
#603 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@Zardoz

Quote:
Can you explain the puking emoticon in context to what you posted please?


maybe number 26 is better?

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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 19-Sep-2009 5:48:22
#604 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Interesting

Quote:
maybe number 26 is better?


Lost in cyberspace? Only 100,000 years to go or am I out by an order of 10?
My contribution to meaning! :)

Noel

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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 19-Sep-2009 8:19:50
#605 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

Renault shows 4 EVs at Frankfurt

http://ecogeek.org/automobiles/2950-renault-presents-four-all-electric-vehicles-in-fra

The image you will see has no caption so from left:
1. Fluence ZE - 4 door 5 person Sedan
2. Twizy ZE - 15 kw 2 seat enclosed scooter I.e. a subcar/shopping trolley
3. Kangoo ZE - 70 kw fleet vehicle, solar roof panels, battery under dashboard.
4. Zoe ZE - 70 kw compact car

There are better pics with other stories that focus on the individual vehicles but I've linked this one because it shows all four vehicles in the same image.

They run on lithium ion batteries which currently give a range for the larger vehicles of about 160 km or 100 miles. By the time they are on sale in 2011, 2012 for Twizy, Renault and partners (Nissan and others) expect this range to be close to 260 km or 160 miles. Batteries can be slowly charged off mains, quick charged at charge centers in 20 minutes, or switched in 3 minutes in an automated facility that looks like a dry carwash. Renault are working this out with other companies. Owners will be able to buy a car at about the same price as the diesel version and pay a subscription for the quick change battery service comparable to the monthly diesel fuel bill.

Noel

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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 19-Sep-2009 15:28:22
#606 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

Following up on the discussion of toxicity of Cherynobl -- 15 most toxic places in the world

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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 19-Sep-2009 19:46:03
#607 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@BrianK

Sobering images, thanks for the link

Noel

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damocles 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 19-Sep-2009 22:39:55
#608 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@NoelFuller

Quote:
But have you sought from scientists' publiations an answer or is this just a rhetorical question intended to imply that reports of warming are false?


Sure there is global warming, we have been warming since the LIA and have not gotten back to the peak temps of the middle ages. It's hard to find sites because of the billions of dollars spent on generating reports that will lead to further research grants into so called AGW are drowning out those which conflict with AGW reports. I find it amusing the far left wing complaining about corps financing a few reports with tens of millions vs the tens of BILLIONS governments spend on a mole hill issue.

I'm still waiting for the hell on Earth we have supposed to have seen since the AGW scam went prime time back in the late 1980s. Where is it?

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Dammy

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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 20-Sep-2009 15:29:29
#609 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@NoelFuller
You are welcome.

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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 20-Sep-2009 17:11:40
#610 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

We've spoken here about how governments subsidies all energies. In the USA oil is subsidized at 2.5x that of renewables Of the renewable subsides nearly 60% is for corn based ethanol.

The calculating subsidies did not take into account stablization of the middle-east, aka US military invasion of Iraq.

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Interesting 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Sep-2009 2:06:01
#611 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@damocles

Quote:
I find it amusing the far left wing complaining about corps financing a few reports with tens of millions vs the tens of BILLIONS governments spend on a mole hill issue.


The actions of Environmental wacko’s goes too far.

The USA will not be exporting some foods and must now must import food. How bad is it? 40% of all the tomato’s grown in the USA are now out of production due to the "new rules" to save a small fish.

Videos

part of the story...

Quote:
Scarce irrigation and drinking water in California could be reduced under a set of rules enacted Monday by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to protect a rare fish uniquely adapted to the Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta.


Quote:
The crux of the issue is the contention by environmentalists that the huge Tracy-area pumps used by the State Water Project and federal Central Valley Project to bring delta water to 25 million Californians and irrigate 750,000 acres of cropland also suck up and kill smelt. Biologists believe the federal ruling will prevent the extinction of the species.


Hello ever hear of fish farms?

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Dandy 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Sep-2009 5:14:55
#612 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote:

...
LONDON – Giving contraceptives to people in developing countries could help fight climate change by slowing population growth, experts said Friday.
...
Experts believe that while normal population growth is unlikely to significantly increase global warming that overpopulation in developing countries could lead to increased demand for food and shelter, which could jeopardize the environment as it struggles with global warming.



Now that's an interesting take:
The industrial countries caused the global warming and the developing countries shall pay for it by taking contraceptives.
Nice, really nice.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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Dandy 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Sep-2009 5:36:59
#613 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote:
@NoelFuller

...
I'm still waiting for the hell on Earth we have supposed to have ... Where is it?



Just follow the link BrianK gave in posting #606...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Sep-2009 11:32:37
#614 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Interesting

Quote:
The actions of Environmental wacko’s goes too far.

The USA will not be exporting some foods and must now must import food. How bad is it? 40% of all the tomato’s grown in the USA are now out of production due to the "new rules" to save a small fish.

Videos

part of the story...
'Part of the Story' is indeed the best line of summary.

The other part of the story

Not only is it to 'save a small fish' but it protects the Salmon fishing industry and tourism. "The Department of Fish and Game estimated that the closure of our commercial salmon fishery cost the state 279 million dollars and nearly 2,600 jobs in 2009, and that’s a conservative estimate at best."

IMO a good example of competing environmental intrests.

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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Sep-2009 11:39:27
#615 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Dandy

Quote:
The industrial countries caused the global warming and the developing countries shall pay for it by taking contraceptives.
Nice, really nice.
I think there's several reasons why the industrialized world is projected to have a shrinking population. For example, Europe is close to a peak population level.

Where we see the problem isn't necessarily in the population of the developing countries but in the pollution of the developing countries. The USA exports manufacturing to nations with lax environment laws. I wonder how much pollution in China is due to manufacturing goods for the USA, and failing to implement strict pollution controls. In short, the industrialized world excuses our pollution by exporting it to the 3rd world.

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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Sep-2009 13:04:48
#616 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@damocles

Quote:
Sure there is global warming, we have been warming since the LIA and have not gotten back to the peak temps of the middle ages.


Peak temperatures? You and others have been led to believe a fabrication - we've seen the graphs purporting to show what you say. They do not accord with the proxy records which are made available through NOAA. This subject has been raised many times here.
Some facts:


  • There was a medeival warming period (MWP) followed by a little ice age (LIA)
  • They appear in the proxy records in parts of Europe and have very recently been shown in isotope analysis of arctic lakebed sediments, and are also found in anecdotal records. Vineyard records have not been found to be reliable proxies.
  • MWP AND LIA also appear in CO2 records - max 280 ppm, much less than today
  • Global MWP temperatures were not as high as present temperatures which exhibit the steepest rise since 2000 years.


I have commented that had MWP temperatures been as high as denialists would have us believe the arctic sea ice would have melted with the passages open in summer, glaciers would have melted beyond what they are doing today so the iceman would have been exposed then and would have decayed, methane emissions in the arctic (happening today), primarily from the arctic continental shelf but also from the tundra, would have created a world CO2e spike such that the LIA would never have happened. These things did not happen. We are not climbing back out of the LIA toward some natural norm.

Quote:
It's hard to find sites because of the billions . . .


nonsense. I did take the trouble to provide you with links before which you obviously ignored. They are only a few clicks away - google images will find some of it right away, the science and the fictions.

Noel

Last edited by NoelFuller on 21-Sep-2009 at 01:07 PM.

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NoelFuller 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Sep-2009 13:56:01
#617 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2003
Posts: 926
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Interesting

Quote:
Hello ever hear of fish farms?


Quite apart from the fact that fish farms of today tend to make an even greater demand on resources than the natural ecosystems do, a fish farm to preserve the very small fish discussed is entirely missing the point. A fishfarm would hardly match the productivity of the Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta but that is also beside the point.

Those small fish are key to the survival of an entire ecology:Quote:
The health of the delta smelt, a 2- to 3-inch long silver-colored fish, is, according to biologists, a sign of the overall health of the ecosystem, including other fish species such as striped bass, longfin smelt, threadfin shad and Chinook salmon.


So what we have in this debate as represented by the howls of fear over water restriction, is yet another example of the incomprehension of people that our environment whacking, our raids on the ecosystems of this world, our usually excessive consumption, has a cost - failure of the biosphere to support us as it has done - that issue going way beyond this particular example. If the restriction of water for brief parts of the year results in Californians learning to prioritise their consumption, that will be a good thing. The place is I know experiencing increasing drought, but this water is not a cure for that issue.

I'm pleased that there are Americans that take the environment, the biosphere, seriously and that this is sufficient to get response.

In my youth I once took a job wherein I spent my days making brine for a chlorine plant, then making bleach from the brine for newsprint manufacture. The first time one of these enormous tanks of bleach failed to make the required standard I was given a procedure that resulted in discharge of that tank somewhere. On enquiry I discovered it was discharged straight into the river, along with all the other discharge from the pulp and paper mill. Below the mill, through to the estuary, the once beautiful Tarawera river is refered to as the black river because that is what it is - black and dead. After the succeeding 50 years of apparently ineffective environmental action I was astonished to learn that the mill has been attempting to get a 5 year period of grace extended to 15 years to give it time to make changes!

Noel

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Interesting 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Sep-2009 14:09:13
#618 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@BrianK

Quote:
IMO a good example of competing environmental intrests.


This was a poor joke?

you might change your view come fall and winter. The USA will now have to import the 2 Billion dollars worth of food produced.

See this is the problem I have with all these “quick fixes”. Not all the factors are put into consideration. Some recent examples:

1)Given: plants soak up Co2 and produce oxygen. 750,000 acres have now been taken out of the balance.

2)Today’s news headline: UN: more to go hungry in Eastern Africa
3) ............

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Interesting 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Sep-2009 14:19:19
#619 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@NoelFuller

Quote:
Quite apart from the fact that fish farms of today tend to make an even greater demand on resources than the natural ecosystems do, a fish farm to preserve the very small fish discussed is entirely missing the point. A fishfarm would hardly match the productivity of the Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta but that is also beside the point.


Fish farms are very useful to “endangered species”. Fish if truly “endangered” should be allowed to grow and repopulate and returned to the area.

I would also ask what good does it do if the smelt get dumped with the water into the Ocean? Feed the bigger fish? That does little to save an “endangered species”.

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BrianK 
Re: Global warming Volume 4
Posted on 21-Sep-2009 22:32:07
#620 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Interesting

Quote:
you might change your view come fall and winter. The USA will now have to import the 2 Billion dollars worth of food produced.
Food is a commodity to the consumer. Just like everything else for the past 30 years the USA has exported the manufacturing of goods. If we can buy food at cheaper prices from over seas then guess what, we buy cheaper food from over seas. Certainly environmentalism, let alone global warming, plays a small role at best. Instead the problem is 30+ years of supply-side economics.

In the 1970s the USA was the #1 importer of raw materials and #1 exporter of goods. Starting in the 80s and continuing we're the exporter of raw materials, importer of goods, and borrowing from the world. Food is now a good.

Last edited by BrianK on 21-Sep-2009 at 10:35 PM.

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