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      /  What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
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PosterThread
vox 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 25-Jun-2009 19:52:47
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@serk118

PPC RISC arhitecture was a leading CPU arhitecture of its time.

It also improved a lot, it just lost the gigaherc battle,
as much as everyone beside Intel did.

Its CPU are very usable solutions, used in variety of devices,
with multicore and other contemporary technologies.

Having faster RAM, Gigaherz CPU and PCI-E is a next level,
at least for AmigaOS platform.

At least we need something close to G4 to be a viable platform.
G4 Mac can satisfy all your needs, you hardware maniacs.
And most of users could just go by nice with next level SOCC PPC


_________________
Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!

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vox 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 25-Jun-2009 22:11:20
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@DrZarkov

I agre Amiga 3000, especially Tower is the most professional Amiga ever was,
so far.

Atom is nice, its interesting to see the new generation nettops with Linux.

Its not easy being stack with lowlevel PPC hardware. 603 and 604 were quite nice,
and no, its not because of Motorola but because IBM manifactured chips were
promised to be Amigas future always. Now, if we only had G4, multicore PPC CPUs
and Cell, it might be a little bit different song ...

Being realistic I just wish

a) Stable SAM OS 4.1 final
b) Yellow Dog Linux for SAM,
c) Making unifed standard model where softaware is exactly optimized for it
d) Combining YDL and OS 4 it can be a nice platform to demonstrate and market!
e) Having maybe cheaper boards, when possibile
f) More software! More software! More software!

Maybe even cheaper Flex board, some cheap stack of Radeons 9250 (why not adding Radeon and leaving PCI slots on standard size board? GFX expansion can be optional
and cheaper chips made avail. Maybe driver for some never Radeon and its implementation. I dont mind having AMD written on the board PCI-E and faster CPU (as seen with newer chips) would be most welcome, as well as drivers for PCI-E GFX Radeon cards.

Thats all.

Btw, you can find some Intel chips inside ZX Sinclair QL, but it does not make it an Intel driven computer. Its auxiliary chips, but it shows how we all supported Intel at some point of life

_________________
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olegil 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 25-Jun-2009 22:52:52
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@vox

is there ever going to be ONE thread that doesn't degenerate into the old x86/PPC bickering?

It's like amigans are the only people in the world who cannot have a hypothetical argument.

Given the fact that we're currently only able to buy 440EP based boards (and some second hand boards, but let's not call that a steady supply), what would be the advantages (and disadvantages, maybe?) of ACube looking to switch to 460EX?

obviously the advantages would be better performance. and given that the engineering work and support chips would be mostly the same, doubling the performance at double the chip price means double the performance at less than double the end product price. IF, and only if, ACube can shift enough of the upgraded version to make the volumes comparable. Not knowing anything about any industrial partners of ACube, that's not something we here can even begin to speculate.

another advantage would of course be PCIe, GbE and SATA direct from the SoC. DDR2 instead of DDR.

disadvantage: having to do a new board. hardly anything except the physical layout can be reused. The PCI system can of course stay unchanged, just remove the PCI graphics slot, replace with a x4 PCIe one, remove and any ethernet chips, put in a single or dual GbE PHY. Change the SATA chip to a x1 PCIe one.

A ton of work. But the second one is always easier. And DDR2 compared to DDR is not difficult (possibly means just replacing the strobe pins with differential strobe pairs, tuning the data lanes and address/cmd sets to slightly tighter tolerances)

speaking as a hardware engineer having recently (about 8 hours ago, actually) completed a PPC board design (design files will be sent to manufacturing tomorrow), I feel I have _some_ credibility in what I'm talking about here.

I would estimate 1 person 8 weeks full time work to take the 440EP design and change it to a 460EX design. So about 30000 USD.

It sounded sweet until that last sentence, didn't it?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Hans 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 25-Jun-2009 23:21:37
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@olegil

I was about to dismiss this thread as derailed, and then I saw your post. I was guessing that it would be more expensive than your estimate, but I haven't done any significant hardware design, particularly not at the frequencies involved.

If AMCC's Titan products were available then the choice would be obvious. Right now, it's not even guaranteed that those products will ever get past the prototype stage. Also, while the 460GT goes up to 1 GHz, the GTx and SX (not yet available?) will go up to 1.4 GHz. Not as fast as the latest x86 processors, but definitely a step up from my A1.

There is one thing that I'm curious about :
Quote:
speaking as a hardware engineer having recently (about 8 hours ago, actually) completed a PPC board design (design files will be sent to manufacturing tomorrow), I feel I have _some_ credibility in what I'm talking about here.


Care to post any more details?

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 25-Jun-2009 23:28:54
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@olegil

30.000,- USD
divided by expected sales (100 - 300 sales)

from 100 to 300,- USD development cost per broad.

The add production costs and,
* warranty coverage 1 of 1000 is going to break whit in 1 year warranty.
* testing

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olegil 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 5:50:41
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:

There is one thing that I'm curious about :
Quote:
speaking as a hardware engineer having recently (about 8 hours ago, actually) completed a PPC board design (design files will be sent to manufacturing tomorrow), I feel I have _some_ credibility in what I'm talking about here.


Care to post any more details?

Hans


Nah. Shant. It's not for the Amiga market. I might post a link to it when it enters our sales channel. But don't expect to see consumer prices

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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jingof 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 7:01:47
#27 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 499
From: Jingo Fet is from "A Galaxy Far, Far Away"

@thread

Oh no.. not another "x86 debate". I suggested Amigs OS go the x86 direction on a forum to the Friedens back into 2000 or 2001. And the Friends replied they were legally restricted and had no such option at the time.

But back then, such a suggestion made sense, because it was early enough it could have gone that way.

Now, it is too late. The stones are cast and the direction is set. And it is simply too expensive to "right the wrong" now. That's the simple truth IMO - hindsight being 20/20 and all.

Quote:
DrZarkov wrote:
IMHO the next version of AmigaOS should run on x86!


Yeah, and BIll Gates _should_ deposit $35 million into my checking account tomorrow. I mean, I'd really like that, and my choices would increase. So, he should right?

Sadly, neither are going to happen... Something called ... ummm .. "economics" I believe.

It's a rare company that would sink so much money into such a high risk, expensive "proposition", targeted at such a small, niche market. Rare because such companies already put themselves out of business.

Quote:
Serk118 wrote:
x86 is todays market..and i do agree with you matey..

Oh.. then YOU guys had better get to work then! You've got a lot of porting to do! And $millions to pay out to developers and lawyers; money you're very likely to lose and never recoup.

Ask not what financial suicide others are willing to commit! -- So that you might save a few bucks..

Last edited by jingof on 26-Jun-2009 at 07:16 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 26-Jun-2009 at 07:14 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 26-Jun-2009 at 07:12 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 26-Jun-2009 at 07:06 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 26-Jun-2009 at 07:03 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 26-Jun-2009 at 07:02 AM.

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Amiga 1000, 3000
AmigaOne X1000

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webhead 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 9:00:52
#28 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Sep-2004
Posts: 235
From: phobos

well i beleive people that we all should have a choice ,it doesnt matter whats better or whats crap we just need a choice for all os,s to run on dif machines.

as we speak hyperion are making a pc port ask them i bet im right.

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Fransexy 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 9:12:12
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@x86 fans

There is a lot of threads about x86 port and you can open a new one if you want it but for god´s sake don´t contaminate another one.I respect (and i can even say that undestand it) your opinion and your prays but again for god´s shake respect us that like PowerPC.
The thread is about PowerPC why on earth you enter in first place?

Feel free to star another x86 thread but please, please, god!!!! please do not start another x86 discussion inside a thread about discussion of PowerPC chips

Last edited by Fransexy on 26-Jun-2009 at 09:13 AM.

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Arko 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 10:12:16
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote:
@x86 fans

There is a lot of threads about x86 port and you can open a new one if you want it but for god´s sake don´t contaminate another one.I respect (and i can even say that undestand it) your opinion and your prays but again for god´s shake respect us that like PowerPC.
The thread is about PowerPC why on earth you enter in first place?

Feel free to star another x86 thread but please, please, god!!!! please do not start another x86 discussion inside a thread about discussion of PowerPC chips


I believe the Sam440 flex could be the last hardware manufactured for AmigaOS.

There are simple reasons for this feeling:

1.
The Sam440 is cheaper and has less hardware problem than the A1 or µA1, if they don't attract enough users, the manufacturer will see no reasons for further development.

1000 user might be not enough ... this time they can't blame the hardware manufacturer for the end of production.


2.
Genesi, as possible competitor for ACube seems to make a totally switch to AMD. I have my doubts they will continue to work on the Efika with the >GHz SoC CPU from freescale.

3.
With the end of an own hardware platform they will have to search for something else, a x86 port will be difficult, they would have to compete with native AROS and emulated AOS3 on WinUAE. Hyperion has to decide if they want to compete with fastz and native AROS or with the high compatible WinUAE it doesn't matter waht they do on x86 AOS4 will always lose.

4.
If they would switch to ARM they will have the same problems they had on PPC, limited number of hardware suppliers, and no chance to get on mass producht like cell phones or netbooks.

So this is tha last year of PPC Amiga !

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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afxgroup 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 10:13:28
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy

@Radov

Quote:
6) When 460 version will get to the market it will be as old, as 440ep is now. It's to late for 460ex. We need now to go a one step further: to the FreeScale 86xx. But since Acube is in a cooperation with AMCC, it's even better to think about it's future CPU: Titan 2+GHz. Assuming it hasn’t been cancelled already. It should appear once 32nm tech will be available.


even if you will have a 4GHZ platform you will say that is too late because in the meanwhile a 5Ghz cpu is out..
Sorry but the "little amiga world" has died because the user doesn't understand what is the real amiga world.
Since you all think that our market is like the real market will never go out from this situation

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afxgroup 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 10:42:56
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy

@Arko

Quote:
So this is tha last year of PPC Amiga !


i don't think so..

_________________
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fingus 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 11:04:09
#33 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2006
Posts: 747
From: Havixbeck / Germany

@afxgroup

Quote:
even if you will have a 4GHZ platform you will say that is too late because in the meanwhile a 5Ghz cpu is out..


CPU-Clock Frequency is not all! When you think so please stay away from Amiga!

_________________
I´m back in 2023 on Classic Amiga with my A1200/Blizzard1230IB@50Mhz, 32MB RAM, AmigaOS3.2 and ROMs, Indivision AGA MK3, Author of Amiga-Flipclock (OS4)

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Hans 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 11:28:50
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@Arko

Quote:

Arko wrote:

I believe the Sam440 flex could be the last hardware manufactured for AmigaOS.


The FPGA, ZigBee and other embedded systems features suggests strongly that the Sam440 board weren't manufactured specifically for Amiga OS either.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Hans 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 11:31:04
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote:
@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:

There is one thing that I'm curious about :
[quote]speaking as a hardware engineer having recently (about 8 hours ago, actually) completed a PPC board design (design files will be sent to manufacturing tomorrow), I feel I have _some_ credibility in what I'm talking about here.


Care to post any more details?

Hans


Nah. Shant. It's not for the Amiga market. I might post a link to it when it enters our sales channel. But don't expect to see consumer prices [/quote]

Fair enough.

In other news, I think that this thread is now well and truly derailed.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 26-Jun-2009 at 11:31 AM.

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Radov 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 11:54:00
#36 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2006
Posts: 139
From: Poland

@afxgroup

I think that You have misinterpreted my intention. I’m very happy for having Sam440ep-flex and hope to do some dev stuff in a near future. I’m aware also that “Amiga market” is a special one and a special treatment is needed. But even though I’m not really sure that Amiga related companies are always obliged to use the oldest solutions. It’s fine if development on a 460ex based motherboard has started some time ago, so we can have a new product in a near future. But it in case that someone is going to start dev work today, my answer is: “consider a F8641d or AMCC’s Titan”. Titan was claimed to be compatible with current 440’s so it’s even better choice.

To sum up:
I’m not thinking about “clock’s” and “speed”. Development of a 440 core (460ex is 440) family is already canceled. Will be followed by (real) 460 core and Titan products. Wish that new Amiga-related hardware wont be based on a soon-not-availble CPU.

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Speedy 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 12:16:06
#37 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Nov-2006
Posts: 117
From: Denmark

@vox

We JUST need that SAM460.

So now when USB3 chips are shipping and SATA 3 as well. We know our place, we'll be JUST behind the PC again :(

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Rogue 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 13:04:21
#38 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@Manu

Quote:
I prefer being unreal instead of fanatic.


The usual tactics (and yeah that works both ways) is to call all those that do not share one's opinion as fanatics.

One of the reasons I don't read these Amiga sites anymore. Yeah, and the fact that every other thread degenerates into the same old "they should port to ".

/me crawls back under my rock.

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Rogue 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 13:10:37
#39 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@Arko

Quote:
3.
With the end of an own hardware platform they will have to search for something else, a x86 port will be difficult, they would have to compete with native AROS and emulated AOS3 on WinUAE. Hyperion has to decide if they want to compete with fastz and native AROS or with the high compatible WinUAE it doesn't matter waht they do on x86 AOS4 will always lose.


You honestly seem to think we are idiots. Never mind, it's a rhetorical question. I can answer it for you, no we aren't.

Quote:
So this is tha last year of PPC Amiga !


You are so wrong, and I'll be happy to remind you about that.

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Crumb 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 26-Jun-2009 13:19:26
#40 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Zaragoza (Aragonian State)

@vox

they'd better release OS4 for Mac Mini/powerbook G4 and Mac G5 with Radeon and stop releasing underpowered and expensive hardware

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