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Hammer 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 27-Jun-2009 2:56:37
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@vox

Quote:

vox wrote:
@serk118

PPC RISC arhitecture was a leading CPU arhitecture of its time.

It wasn't the leading CPU architecture of its time.

On the embedded market, PPC gets smacked by ARM based processors. My WinMobile6 phone's Xscale ARM based processor has 256KB L2 cache and two SIMD units.

Last edited by Hammer on 27-Jun-2009 at 03:06 AM.

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Darth_X 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 27-Jun-2009 3:00:46
#62 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2003
Posts: 2997
From: Vancouver Island, Canada

@vox

http://www.xilinx.com/products/virtex5/

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DrZarkov 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 27-Jun-2009 5:40:36
#63 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2009
Posts: 159
From: Dschörmännie

@afxgroup
I was comparing the Atom motherboards, not a netbook ,with the PPC motherboards by Acube. Look for example this board: http://www.winner-netshop.de/product_info.php?info=p30070
It costs 61 EUR including VAT (19 % in Germany)!


>Maybe (MAYBE..) only the mobo without any other piece of hardware

The rest of the hardware like a case, harddisk, DVD, is the same for PC, Amiga and Mac. There is nothing to compare. The only difference *is* the motherboard and the processor. None of the ever made Amiga PPC motherboards starting with the Amiga One up to the SAM440ep Flex has *any* advantage against x86! It has allways been slower and much more expensive. In the past the difference wasn't that bad, but there was no progress! The current PPCs are technically far behind!

PPC has nothing to do with "real" Amigas. The hardware of the "real" Amiga uses clever customchips, which take more of a CPU which was then not the fastest in the world, but powerfull enough and with a good relation between costs and power. Using the PPC was an idea by the company Phase 5 in 1995, it seemed intelligent in that time, because it was faster than 680x0 or x86, it was available, Apple used it, so there were tools available for switching from 680x0 and there was a roadmap for future developement.

That was 14 years ago! In 1995 at the 10th birthday of Amiga, about 4 million users were willing to accept the switch to PPC. Now, 14 years later, after a couple ot thousand PPC-only Amigas sold (compared to 4 Mio "classic" Amigas!) You will tell me it is "too late" to switch to another, better, CPU? That's ridiculous!

And about porting AmigaOS 4.1 to x86: The biggest miracle of all: You are free to write another OS for avaiable hardware! Nobody is asking you for a licence or royalties! Most motherboard-producers are helpful and support the productions of drivers with documention. For the above mentions Atom board all necessary Linux drivers are available at the homepage of Intel. Hyperion could start now! And the other way round: Why should Intel pay money to Hyperion for porting AmigaOS? It's Hyperion who wants to sell the software. This is something going very wrong in the past 10 years. Too many people not understanding the system of symbiosis....

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Arko 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 27-Jun-2009 10:13:28
#64 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@afxgroup

Quote:

Zarkow was speaking about Atom..

No ! he just used ATOM as an example
Quote:

Zarkov wrote:
... a (hypothetic) "SAM 460GT " Motherboard with at least 1 GHz for about 250 EUR ...


Quote:

ACube doesn't resell mobo of other harwdware companies

No one forces me to buy from ACube
Quote:

and x86 mobo are useless for OS4.


So you are telling me AOS4 is useless for new boards with more than1GHz clock frequencies, no problem I could use AROS.

Quote:

If you want an x86 mobo, buy one and enjoy (....) with Linux or Windows..


And AROS and WinUAE all together wih comfortabl DVD burnng software, free Office packages, CAD programs, video editing software, USB scanners, printers, Games, there is not much reason left to use AOS4.

Last edited by Arko on 27-Jun-2009 at 10:15 AM.

_________________
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I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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afxgroup 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 27-Jun-2009 10:29:37
#65 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy

@Arko

Quote:

No ! he just used ATOM as an example

You can compare only ATOM with 460ex and at least totally of these mobo are used for netbboks since at 300$ tou can b uy a superpc now..

Quote:

No one forces me to buy from ACube

Actually you doesn't have any other hw producer for AmigaOS4.

Quote:

Quote:

and x86 mobo are useless for OS4.

So you are telling me AOS4 is useless for new boards with more than1GHz clock frequencies, no problem I could use AROS.

No, i'll tell you that x86 mobos are useless to use OS4. Yeah you can use AROS wherever you want.. but we are speaking about OS4 not AROS.

Quote:

Quote:

If you want an x86 mobo, buy one and enjoy (....) with Linux or Windows..


And AROS and WinUAE all together wih comfortabl DVD burnng software, free Office packages, CAD programs, video editing software, USB scanners, printers, Games, there is not much reason left to use AOS4.

Uh.. this thread is "What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 " and of course is related to OS4... there are a lot of other threads.. but not this one.
Anyone would imagine a cheap PPC 2GHZ PCIe 4GB of ram at 300EUR but this could be maybe in another life (or maybe if we have tons of new OS4 users..) but actually you are out of the (Amiga..OS4..) world..

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afxgroup 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 27-Jun-2009 10:37:08
#66 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy

@DrZarkov

Quote:

I was comparing the Atom motherboards, not a netbook ,with the PPC motherboards by Acube. Look for example this board: http://www.winner-netshop.de/product_info.php?info=p30070
It costs 61 EUR including VAT (19 % in Germany)!

Again.. did you see the producer of this Motherboard?


Quote:

The rest of the hardware like a case, harddisk, DVD, is the same for PC, Amiga and Mac. There is nothing to compare. The only difference *is* the motherboard and the processor. None of the ever made Amiga PPC motherboards starting with the Amiga One up to the SAM440ep Flex has *any* advantage against x86! It has allways been slower and much more expensive. In the past the difference wasn't that bad, but there was no progress! The current PPCs are technically far behind!

Oh God.. This is not another x86 thread! It is possible that all of you again speak of OS4 with X86??
Damn. Do you want x86? Use AROS! or WinUAE!
we have an OS that works on PPC. these motherboards are *useless* for us. its too hard to understand?

Quote:

PPC has nothing to do with "real" Amigas. The hardware of the "real" Amiga uses clever customchips, which take more of a CPU which was then not the fastest in the world, but powerfull enough and with a good relation between costs and power. Using the PPC was an idea by the company Phase 5 in 1995, it seemed intelligent in that time, because it was faster than 680x0 or x86, it was available, Apple used it, so there were tools available for switching from 680x0 and there was a roadmap for future developement.

Neither AROS or WinUAE has nothing to do with REAL-OLD Amigas.. but now we are in 2009 and the our beloved (real) Commodore has died. Do you remember?

Quote:

That was 14 years ago! In 1995 at the 10th birthday of Amiga, about 4 million users were willing to accept the switch to PPC. Now, 14 years later, after a couple ot thousand PPC-only Amigas sold (compared to 4 Mio "classic" Amigas!) You will tell me it is "too late" to switch to another, better, CPU? That's ridiculous!

And about porting AmigaOS 4.1 to x86: The biggest miracle of all: You are free to write another OS for avaiable hardware! Nobody is asking you for a licence or royalties! Most motherboard-producers are helpful and support the productions of drivers with documention. For the above mentions Atom board all necessary Linux drivers are available at the homepage of Intel. Hyperion could start now! And the other way round: Why should Intel pay money to Hyperion for porting AmigaOS? It's Hyperion who wants to sell the software. This is something going very wrong in the past 10 years. Too many people not understanding the system of symbiosis....


Sorry.. i don't get another x86 thread..

P.S.
Yesterday I was readin an old Amiga magazine dated 1993 and the price of the A4000 was 4.000.000 of old italian Lire, almost 2000 Eur.. yes.. they was the fantastic A4000, nothing compared with AmigaOne or Pegasos or Sam or Efika.. but they was produced in millons of pieces and look at the price!
Now we have 1/100000 of the old Amiga marked. What did you expect???
Get in the real Amiga world.. and stop these useless thread..

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olegil 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 27-Jun-2009 11:05:29
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@afxgroup

stop feeding the trolls.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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DrZarkov 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 6:52:59
#68 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2009
Posts: 159
From: Dschörmännie

@afxgroup
>Again.. did you see the producer of this Motherboard?

Yes, and where is the problem?

>Oh God.. This is not another x86 thread! It is possible that all of you again speak of OS4 with X86??
>Damn. Do you want x86? Use AROS! or WinUAE!

I like AmigaOS 4.1. It is a nice OS. But I don't like the currently available hardware. It is slow and expensive. What is so difficult to understand?

>we have an OS that works on PPC. these motherboards are *useless* for us. its too hard to >understand?

Yes, true. But Hyperion does have the source code. Where is the problem of porting? If they want a long term solution, there is no way around.


>Yesterday I was readin an old Amiga magazine dated 1993 and the price of the A4000 was >4.000.000 of old italian Lire, almost 2000 Eur.. yes.. they was the fantastic A4000, nothing >compared with AmigaOne or Pegasos or Sam or Efika.. but they was produced in millons of >pieces and look at the price!

What alternatives you had in that time? A PC with Windows 3.1! Or an even more expensive Mac with the crappy MacOS 6.0.8! And BTW: Amiga 4000s were sold a few thousands, the beststeller was the Amiga 1200 and before that the A 500. They were cheap!

>Now we have 1/100000 of the old Amiga marked. What did you expect???
I expect that you realise, that the current market is only 1/1000 (not 1/100000, that would mean 40 users) of the good old times, guess why? Most people are not willing to spend 800 EUR for a slow computer waiting years for updates. The whole situation would be much better with more affordable hardware.

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afxgroup 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 8:56:31
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy

@DrZarkov

Quote:

>Again.. did you see the producer of this Motherboard?
Yes, and where is the problem?

The problem is the Acube is not INTEL.. its so hard to understand?? Do you know how much cost to produce a motherbord from its start to production?

Quote:

I like AmigaOS 4.1. It is a nice OS. But I don't like the currently available hardware. It is slow and expensive. What is so difficult to understand?

No one tell you to use OS4. You have the choice. So use WinUAE. But i'm sure that you will never use an emulated machine.. i'm sure. otherwise you will not stress us with this thread..

Quote:

What alternatives you had in that time? A PC with Windows 3.1! Or an even more expensive Mac with the crappy MacOS 6.0.8! And BTW: Amiga 4000s were sold a few thousands, the beststeller was the Amiga 1200 and before that the A 500. They were cheap!

Cheap? do you remember the price of million 500-1200 sold? when you sell those numbers of machine the price could be also cheaper.

Quote:

>Now we have 1/100000 of the old Amiga marked. What did you expect???
I expect that you realise, that the current market is only 1/1000 (not 1/100000, that would mean 40 users) of the good old times, guess why? Most people are not willing to spend 800 EUR for a slow computer waiting years for updates. The whole situation would be much better with more affordable hardware.

And why you think that even if you have an x86 OS4 the updates will be weekly???
You really don't understand what is Amiga today. Amiga is near to zero. Keep this in mind before dream something..
Ore use Mac, win or linux and enjoy your pc instead to use a *slow* and *never update* OS.

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Hammer 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 9:25:45
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@afxgroup

Quote:
No one tell you to use OS4. You have the choice. So use WinUAE. But i'm sure that you will never use an emulated machine.. i'm sure. otherwise you will not stress us with this thread..

If emulation is fast and transparent, I'm sure people would not complain about its performance.

Modern X86 processors translates CISC instructions to RISCy instructions. Pentium IV has a cache for the translated instructions.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 09:26 AM.

_________________
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Hammer 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 9:32:52
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@DrZarkov and @afxgroup

Quote:
What alternatives you had in that time? A PC with Windows 3.1! Or an even more expensive Mac with the crappy MacOS 6.0.8! And BTW: Amiga 4000s were sold a few thousands, the beststeller was the Amiga 1200 and before that the A 500. They were cheap!

One the main strengths of classic Amigas was its IGP. It’s ironic that we discussing/debating the CPUs when the focus should be the GPU.

Currently, Xbox 360 captures this classic Amiga topology.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 09:40 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 09:33 AM.

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afxgroup 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 10:05:21
#72 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2004
Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy

@Hammer

Quote:

If emulation is fast and transparent, I'm sure people would not complain about its performance.

Modern X86 processors translates CISC instructions to RISCy instructions. Pentium IV has a cache for the translated instructions.


i'm not speaking about speed that is surely faster than a SAM, i'm speaking at feeling that you have using winuae. You know that you are using an emulator and not a real machine..

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olegil 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 10:22:58
#73 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Hammer

Again, has anyone managed to use any cool GPU features outside a Windows environment?

Cause if we could utilise the concept of GPU-as-processing-power then it wouldn't matter diddly-squat what CPU we use. As long as we have something that's able to feed the GPU.

Like for instance an 8610 or similar.

But since it seems that's Windows only, it matters not diddly-squat what CPU we use, as it won't benefit us anyway.

Hey, seems it matters diddly-squat which CPU we use anyway. Good news, everyone, we can continue on the path we've been going.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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Hammer 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 12:28:37
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@olegil

Quote:

Again, has anyone managed to use any cool GPU features outside a Windows environment?

Again, refer to http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Njc4Ng
"UVD Is Enabled For Linux (Lintel) In Catalyst 8.10".

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_catalyst_91&num=1
"AMD Catalyst 9.1 (Lintel) Brings OpenGL 3.0".

OpenGL 3.0 is roughly equal to Direct3D 10.0
OpenGL 3.1 is roughly equal to Direct3D 10.1

Quote:

Cause if we could utilise the concept of GPU-as-processing-power then it wouldn't matter diddly-squat what CPU we use. As long as we have something that's able to feed the GPU.

Well, Radeon HD has a tessellation unit i.e. using the GPU to generate extra geometry.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 12:50 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 12:35 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 12:29 PM.

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DrZarkov 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 12:40:41
#75 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2009
Posts: 159
From: Dschörmännie

@Hammer
>One the main strengths of classic Amigas was its IGP. It’s ironic that we discussing/debating the >CPUs when the focus should be the GPU.

>Currently, Xbox 360 captures this classic Amiga topology.

You are absolutely right! That is our problem!

And BTW: There is Nintendo and Sony, too, just to mention it. In fact I admire the Nintendo Wii, because it is in fact like the A 1200 in its time. Not the best available hardware, but they take the most of it. Creating a common motherbaord, but with a PPC instead of an x86 is not very innovative. I remember an interview by Horst Brandl of the German "68000er" in 1988 with Jay Miner. Jay said (about the A500/A2000) "This is not my Amiga". I have to look it up and to re-translate it into English, Jay had some very good ideas for a "future" successor of the Amiga. It would have been a machine with a new generation of custom-chips, and a Transputer CPU. Now we now that Transputer did not became a success, but the idea is still living. It is called multicore...

I don't like religious fanatics. For Jay Miner the CPU was just a tool, he took what was the best thing available. I doubt that the answer would be now PPC.

And one more thing about Acube and Intel: Yes, of course Intel can produce cheaper. But why reinventing the wheel? And if you want to reinvent something, make it at least better, not worse! I told that I'm willing to pay more, I don't want to use an emulator, I want the real thing. But there are limits.

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Hammer 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 13:07:36
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5246
From: Australia

@DrZarkov

Well, Nintendo Wii's has motion based control system.

AMD/ATI Radeon HD 2400/3400 can easily blow away AMD/ATI Hollywood. IF the price is right, it could slot between Wii and PS3.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 01:11 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 01:08 PM.

_________________
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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
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Arko 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 13:38:05
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@DrZarkov

Quote:

DrZarkov wrote:

I like AmigaOS 4.1. It is a nice OS. But I don't like the currently available
hardware. It is slow and expensive. What is so difficult to understand?


Nothing, AROS is nice too, how about a change to AROS ?


Quote:

Yes, true. But Hyperion does have the source code.
Where is the problem of porting?


If they do just a port they will get something like AROS, AOS4 in x86 would not be able to run AOS3 68k programs, they would run into problems with old 68k libraries, and it would nort be possible to run existinhg AOS4 PPC Software.

They would get every problem AROS does has.

At the other hand they would have to compete with WinUAE, and AROS that are running quite well on x86. And the licence from Amiga Inc. was only for the PPC, I don't know if that changed after the court case.


Quote:

If they want a long term solution, there is no way around.


How do you know they are searching for a longterm sollution ?

If you are searching for an Amiga OS with a wide support for fast hardware, switch to AROS.

Last edited by Arko on 28-Jun-2009 at 02:14 PM.
Last edited by Arko on 28-Jun-2009 at 02:12 PM.
Last edited by Arko on 28-Jun-2009 at 01:39 PM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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olegil 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 13:45:59
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5895
From: Work

@Hammer

but Catalyst is a binary driver that has since been abandoned by ATI.

So no longer developed, and not useful to Amigans.

How does this help us, again?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

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DrZarkov 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 20:01:39
#79 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Apr-2009
Posts: 159
From: Dschörmännie

@Arko

I have an Aros sytem, too. (With that mentioned Intel Atom board, BTW, which is the same used in the iMica.) Aros is nice, but still far from beeing complete. It is not stable enough, and many parts of AROS which came lately are still in alpha-stadium and need massive improvement. AmigaOS 4.1 is far better developed. This might change in the (near?) future, and I would really like to see it.

If you just recompile AmigaOS 4.1 for x86, you need of course to recompile the software, too. Making it compatible to old software is possible, as Apple has embedded PPC compatibility, this can be done by AmigaOS, too. It is even more easy to use the the "JanusUAE" like in AROS, to make it even more compatible than ever. Running old Amiga software depending on the customchips, just by clicking on it.

The only real problems are currently the legal problems. If they will not be solved, it's a question of time when Aros will have more users than AmigaOS 4.x...

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dylansmrjones 
Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460
Posted on 28-Jun-2009 20:14:02
#80 ]
New Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2009
Posts: 3
From: Odense, Denmark

@all

Another option for future Amigas rather than processors from AMCC, would be switching to the QorIQ series from Freescale. Personally I'm quite hot for the QorlQ P2020. Not that it matters much as long as there isn't money around to develop new motherboards, or buy the components in quantities large enough to yield low prices (we're talking quantities of 10.000 - for this we'd need somewhere around 2.5 million US$ - for the components alone). Of course, the development cost could be reduced somewhat by utilizing an open source approach to hardware development. But it wouldn't work without cooperation between companies and the community, a scenario I´m afraid isn't particularly likely.

The whole x86 vs. PPC debate is pretty moot. The PPC isn't more expensive than x86, when bought in large quantities. Nor does PPC underperform in any way.

Oh, as a last thought. The Efika would make a nice Amiga netbook (oh, the dreams )

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