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Hammer
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 27-Jun-2009 2:56:37
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
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| @vox
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vox wrote: @serk118
PPC RISC arhitecture was a leading CPU arhitecture of its time.
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It wasn't the leading CPU architecture of its time.
On the embedded market, PPC gets smacked by ARM based processors. My WinMobile6 phone's Xscale ARM based processor has 256KB L2 cache and two SIMD units.Last edited by Hammer on 27-Jun-2009 at 03:06 AM.
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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Darth_X
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 27-Jun-2009 3:00:46
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DrZarkov
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 27-Jun-2009 5:40:36
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Joined: 10-Apr-2009 Posts: 159
From: Dschörmännie | | |
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| @afxgroup I was comparing the Atom motherboards, not a netbook ,with the PPC motherboards by Acube. Look for example this board: http://www.winner-netshop.de/product_info.php?info=p30070 It costs 61 EUR including VAT (19 % in Germany)!
>Maybe (MAYBE..) only the mobo without any other piece of hardware
The rest of the hardware like a case, harddisk, DVD, is the same for PC, Amiga and Mac. There is nothing to compare. The only difference *is* the motherboard and the processor. None of the ever made Amiga PPC motherboards starting with the Amiga One up to the SAM440ep Flex has *any* advantage against x86! It has allways been slower and much more expensive. In the past the difference wasn't that bad, but there was no progress! The current PPCs are technically far behind!
PPC has nothing to do with "real" Amigas. The hardware of the "real" Amiga uses clever customchips, which take more of a CPU which was then not the fastest in the world, but powerfull enough and with a good relation between costs and power. Using the PPC was an idea by the company Phase 5 in 1995, it seemed intelligent in that time, because it was faster than 680x0 or x86, it was available, Apple used it, so there were tools available for switching from 680x0 and there was a roadmap for future developement.
That was 14 years ago! In 1995 at the 10th birthday of Amiga, about 4 million users were willing to accept the switch to PPC. Now, 14 years later, after a couple ot thousand PPC-only Amigas sold (compared to 4 Mio "classic" Amigas!) You will tell me it is "too late" to switch to another, better, CPU? That's ridiculous!
And about porting AmigaOS 4.1 to x86: The biggest miracle of all: You are free to write another OS for avaiable hardware! Nobody is asking you for a licence or royalties! Most motherboard-producers are helpful and support the productions of drivers with documention. For the above mentions Atom board all necessary Linux drivers are available at the homepage of Intel. Hyperion could start now! And the other way round: Why should Intel pay money to Hyperion for porting AmigaOS? It's Hyperion who wants to sell the software. This is something going very wrong in the past 10 years. Too many people not understanding the system of symbiosis....
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Arko
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 27-Jun-2009 10:13:28
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Joined: 17-Jan-2007 Posts: 1989
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| @afxgroup
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Zarkow was speaking about Atom..
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No ! he just used ATOM as an example Quote:
Zarkov wrote: ... a (hypothetic) "SAM 460GT " Motherboard with at least 1 GHz for about 250 EUR ...
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ACube doesn't resell mobo of other harwdware companies
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No one forces me to buy from ACube Quote:
and x86 mobo are useless for OS4.
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So you are telling me AOS4 is useless for new boards with more than1GHz clock frequencies, no problem I could use AROS.
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If you want an x86 mobo, buy one and enjoy (....) with Linux or Windows..
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And AROS and WinUAE all together wih comfortabl DVD burnng software, free Office packages, CAD programs, video editing software, USB scanners, printers, Games, there is not much reason left to use AOS4.
Last edited by Arko on 27-Jun-2009 at 10:15 AM.
_________________ AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.
I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28): http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0 |
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afxgroup
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 27-Jun-2009 10:29:37
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Joined: 8-Mar-2004 Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy | | |
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| @Arko
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No ! he just used ATOM as an example
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You can compare only ATOM with 460ex and at least totally of these mobo are used for netbboks since at 300$ tou can b uy a superpc now..
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No one forces me to buy from ACube
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Actually you doesn't have any other hw producer for AmigaOS4.
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and x86 mobo are useless for OS4.
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So you are telling me AOS4 is useless for new boards with more than1GHz clock frequencies, no problem I could use AROS.
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No, i'll tell you that x86 mobos are useless to use OS4. Yeah you can use AROS wherever you want.. but we are speaking about OS4 not AROS.
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If you want an x86 mobo, buy one and enjoy (....) with Linux or Windows..
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And AROS and WinUAE all together wih comfortabl DVD burnng software, free Office packages, CAD programs, video editing software, USB scanners, printers, Games, there is not much reason left to use AOS4.
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Uh.. this thread is "What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 " and of course is related to OS4... there are a lot of other threads.. but not this one. Anyone would imagine a cheap PPC 2GHZ PCIe 4GB of ram at 300EUR but this could be maybe in another life (or maybe if we have tons of new OS4 users..) but actually you are out of the (Amiga..OS4..) world.._________________ http://www.amigasoft.net |
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afxgroup
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 27-Jun-2009 10:37:08
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Joined: 8-Mar-2004 Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy | | |
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| @DrZarkov
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Again.. did you see the producer of this Motherboard?
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The rest of the hardware like a case, harddisk, DVD, is the same for PC, Amiga and Mac. There is nothing to compare. The only difference *is* the motherboard and the processor. None of the ever made Amiga PPC motherboards starting with the Amiga One up to the SAM440ep Flex has *any* advantage against x86! It has allways been slower and much more expensive. In the past the difference wasn't that bad, but there was no progress! The current PPCs are technically far behind!
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Oh God.. This is not another x86 thread! It is possible that all of you again speak of OS4 with X86?? Damn. Do you want x86? Use AROS! or WinUAE! we have an OS that works on PPC. these motherboards are *useless* for us. its too hard to understand?
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PPC has nothing to do with "real" Amigas. The hardware of the "real" Amiga uses clever customchips, which take more of a CPU which was then not the fastest in the world, but powerfull enough and with a good relation between costs and power. Using the PPC was an idea by the company Phase 5 in 1995, it seemed intelligent in that time, because it was faster than 680x0 or x86, it was available, Apple used it, so there were tools available for switching from 680x0 and there was a roadmap for future developement.
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Neither AROS or WinUAE has nothing to do with REAL-OLD Amigas.. but now we are in 2009 and the our beloved (real) Commodore has died. Do you remember?
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That was 14 years ago! In 1995 at the 10th birthday of Amiga, about 4 million users were willing to accept the switch to PPC. Now, 14 years later, after a couple ot thousand PPC-only Amigas sold (compared to 4 Mio "classic" Amigas!) You will tell me it is "too late" to switch to another, better, CPU? That's ridiculous!
And about porting AmigaOS 4.1 to x86: The biggest miracle of all: You are free to write another OS for avaiable hardware! Nobody is asking you for a licence or royalties! Most motherboard-producers are helpful and support the productions of drivers with documention. For the above mentions Atom board all necessary Linux drivers are available at the homepage of Intel. Hyperion could start now! And the other way round: Why should Intel pay money to Hyperion for porting AmigaOS? It's Hyperion who wants to sell the software. This is something going very wrong in the past 10 years. Too many people not understanding the system of symbiosis....
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Sorry.. i don't get another x86 thread..
P.S. Yesterday I was readin an old Amiga magazine dated 1993 and the price of the A4000 was 4.000.000 of old italian Lire, almost 2000 Eur.. yes.. they was the fantastic A4000, nothing compared with AmigaOne or Pegasos or Sam or Efika.. but they was produced in millons of pieces and look at the price! Now we have 1/100000 of the old Amiga marked. What did you expect??? Get in the real Amiga world.. and stop these useless thread.._________________ http://www.amigasoft.net |
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olegil
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 27-Jun-2009 11:05:29
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Joined: 22-Aug-2003 Posts: 5895
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| @afxgroup
stop feeding the trolls. _________________ This weeks pet peeve: Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean. |
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DrZarkov
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 6:52:59
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Joined: 10-Apr-2009 Posts: 159
From: Dschörmännie | | |
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| @afxgroup >Again.. did you see the producer of this Motherboard?
Yes, and where is the problem?
>Oh God.. This is not another x86 thread! It is possible that all of you again speak of OS4 with X86?? >Damn. Do you want x86? Use AROS! or WinUAE!
I like AmigaOS 4.1. It is a nice OS. But I don't like the currently available hardware. It is slow and expensive. What is so difficult to understand?
>we have an OS that works on PPC. these motherboards are *useless* for us. its too hard to >understand?
Yes, true. But Hyperion does have the source code. Where is the problem of porting? If they want a long term solution, there is no way around.
>Yesterday I was readin an old Amiga magazine dated 1993 and the price of the A4000 was >4.000.000 of old italian Lire, almost 2000 Eur.. yes.. they was the fantastic A4000, nothing >compared with AmigaOne or Pegasos or Sam or Efika.. but they was produced in millons of >pieces and look at the price!
What alternatives you had in that time? A PC with Windows 3.1! Or an even more expensive Mac with the crappy MacOS 6.0.8! And BTW: Amiga 4000s were sold a few thousands, the beststeller was the Amiga 1200 and before that the A 500. They were cheap!
>Now we have 1/100000 of the old Amiga marked. What did you expect??? I expect that you realise, that the current market is only 1/1000 (not 1/100000, that would mean 40 users) of the good old times, guess why? Most people are not willing to spend 800 EUR for a slow computer waiting years for updates. The whole situation would be much better with more affordable hardware.
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afxgroup
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 8:56:31
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Joined: 8-Mar-2004 Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy | | |
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| @DrZarkov
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>Again.. did you see the producer of this Motherboard? Yes, and where is the problem?
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The problem is the Acube is not INTEL.. its so hard to understand?? Do you know how much cost to produce a motherbord from its start to production?
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I like AmigaOS 4.1. It is a nice OS. But I don't like the currently available hardware. It is slow and expensive. What is so difficult to understand?
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No one tell you to use OS4. You have the choice. So use WinUAE. But i'm sure that you will never use an emulated machine.. i'm sure. otherwise you will not stress us with this thread..
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What alternatives you had in that time? A PC with Windows 3.1! Or an even more expensive Mac with the crappy MacOS 6.0.8! And BTW: Amiga 4000s were sold a few thousands, the beststeller was the Amiga 1200 and before that the A 500. They were cheap!
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Cheap? do you remember the price of million 500-1200 sold? when you sell those numbers of machine the price could be also cheaper.
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>Now we have 1/100000 of the old Amiga marked. What did you expect??? I expect that you realise, that the current market is only 1/1000 (not 1/100000, that would mean 40 users) of the good old times, guess why? Most people are not willing to spend 800 EUR for a slow computer waiting years for updates. The whole situation would be much better with more affordable hardware.
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And why you think that even if you have an x86 OS4 the updates will be weekly??? You really don't understand what is Amiga today. Amiga is near to zero. Keep this in mind before dream something.. Ore use Mac, win or linux and enjoy your pc instead to use a *slow* and *never update* OS.
_________________ http://www.amigasoft.net |
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Hammer
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 9:25:45
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
From: Australia | | |
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| @afxgroup
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No one tell you to use OS4. You have the choice. So use WinUAE. But i'm sure that you will never use an emulated machine.. i'm sure. otherwise you will not stress us with this thread.. |
If emulation is fast and transparent, I'm sure people would not complain about its performance.
Modern X86 processors translates CISC instructions to RISCy instructions. Pentium IV has a cache for the translated instructions.Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 09:26 AM.
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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Hammer
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 9:32:52
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
From: Australia | | |
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| @DrZarkov and @afxgroup
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What alternatives you had in that time? A PC with Windows 3.1! Or an even more expensive Mac with the crappy MacOS 6.0.8! And BTW: Amiga 4000s were sold a few thousands, the beststeller was the Amiga 1200 and before that the A 500. They were cheap! |
One the main strengths of classic Amigas was its IGP. It’s ironic that we discussing/debating the CPUs when the focus should be the GPU.
Currently, Xbox 360 captures this classic Amiga topology.Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 09:40 AM. Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 09:33 AM.
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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afxgroup
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 10:05:21
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Joined: 8-Mar-2004 Posts: 1968
From: Taranto, Italy | | |
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| @Hammer
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If emulation is fast and transparent, I'm sure people would not complain about its performance.
Modern X86 processors translates CISC instructions to RISCy instructions. Pentium IV has a cache for the translated instructions. |
i'm not speaking about speed that is surely faster than a SAM, i'm speaking at feeling that you have using winuae. You know that you are using an emulator and not a real machine..
_________________ http://www.amigasoft.net |
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olegil
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 10:22:58
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Joined: 22-Aug-2003 Posts: 5895
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| @Hammer
Again, has anyone managed to use any cool GPU features outside a Windows environment?
Cause if we could utilise the concept of GPU-as-processing-power then it wouldn't matter diddly-squat what CPU we use. As long as we have something that's able to feed the GPU.
Like for instance an 8610 or similar.
But since it seems that's Windows only, it matters not diddly-squat what CPU we use, as it won't benefit us anyway.
Hey, seems it matters diddly-squat which CPU we use anyway. Good news, everyone, we can continue on the path we've been going. _________________ This weeks pet peeve: Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean. |
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Hammer
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 12:28:37
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
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| @olegil
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Again, has anyone managed to use any cool GPU features outside a Windows environment?
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Again, refer to http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Njc4Ng "UVD Is Enabled For Linux (Lintel) In Catalyst 8.10".
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_catalyst_91&num=1 "AMD Catalyst 9.1 (Lintel) Brings OpenGL 3.0".
OpenGL 3.0 is roughly equal to Direct3D 10.0 OpenGL 3.1 is roughly equal to Direct3D 10.1
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Cause if we could utilise the concept of GPU-as-processing-power then it wouldn't matter diddly-squat what CPU we use. As long as we have something that's able to feed the GPU. |
Well, Radeon HD has a tessellation unit i.e. using the GPU to generate extra geometry. Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 12:50 PM. Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 12:35 PM. Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 12:29 PM.
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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DrZarkov
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 12:40:41
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Joined: 10-Apr-2009 Posts: 159
From: Dschörmännie | | |
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| @Hammer >One the main strengths of classic Amigas was its IGP. It’s ironic that we discussing/debating the >CPUs when the focus should be the GPU.
>Currently, Xbox 360 captures this classic Amiga topology.
You are absolutely right! That is our problem!
And BTW: There is Nintendo and Sony, too, just to mention it. In fact I admire the Nintendo Wii, because it is in fact like the A 1200 in its time. Not the best available hardware, but they take the most of it. Creating a common motherbaord, but with a PPC instead of an x86 is not very innovative. I remember an interview by Horst Brandl of the German "68000er" in 1988 with Jay Miner. Jay said (about the A500/A2000) "This is not my Amiga". I have to look it up and to re-translate it into English, Jay had some very good ideas for a "future" successor of the Amiga. It would have been a machine with a new generation of custom-chips, and a Transputer CPU. Now we now that Transputer did not became a success, but the idea is still living. It is called multicore...
I don't like religious fanatics. For Jay Miner the CPU was just a tool, he took what was the best thing available. I doubt that the answer would be now PPC.
And one more thing about Acube and Intel: Yes, of course Intel can produce cheaper. But why reinventing the wheel? And if you want to reinvent something, make it at least better, not worse! I told that I'm willing to pay more, I don't want to use an emulator, I want the real thing. But there are limits. |
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Hammer
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 13:07:36
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Joined: 9-Mar-2003 Posts: 5246
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| @DrZarkov
Well, Nintendo Wii's has motion based control system.
AMD/ATI Radeon HD 2400/3400 can easily blow away AMD/ATI Hollywood. IF the price is right, it could slot between Wii and PS3. Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 01:11 PM. Last edited by Hammer on 28-Jun-2009 at 01:08 PM.
_________________ Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68) Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68) |
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Arko
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 13:38:05
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Joined: 17-Jan-2007 Posts: 1989
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| @DrZarkov
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DrZarkov wrote:
I like AmigaOS 4.1. It is a nice OS. But I don't like the currently available hardware. It is slow and expensive. What is so difficult to understand?
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Nothing, AROS is nice too, how about a change to AROS ?
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Yes, true. But Hyperion does have the source code. Where is the problem of porting?
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If they do just a port they will get something like AROS, AOS4 in x86 would not be able to run AOS3 68k programs, they would run into problems with old 68k libraries, and it would nort be possible to run existinhg AOS4 PPC Software.
They would get every problem AROS does has.
At the other hand they would have to compete with WinUAE, and AROS that are running quite well on x86. And the licence from Amiga Inc. was only for the PPC, I don't know if that changed after the court case.
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If they want a long term solution, there is no way around.
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How do you know they are searching for a longterm sollution ?
If you are searching for an Amiga OS with a wide support for fast hardware, switch to AROS.Last edited by Arko on 28-Jun-2009 at 02:14 PM. Last edited by Arko on 28-Jun-2009 at 02:12 PM. Last edited by Arko on 28-Jun-2009 at 01:39 PM.
_________________ AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.
I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28): http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0 |
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olegil
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 13:45:59
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Joined: 22-Aug-2003 Posts: 5895
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| @Hammer
but Catalyst is a binary driver that has since been abandoned by ATI.
So no longer developed, and not useful to Amigans.
How does this help us, again? _________________ This weeks pet peeve: Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean. |
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DrZarkov
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 20:01:39
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Joined: 10-Apr-2009 Posts: 159
From: Dschörmännie | | |
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| @Arko
I have an Aros sytem, too. (With that mentioned Intel Atom board, BTW, which is the same used in the iMica.) Aros is nice, but still far from beeing complete. It is not stable enough, and many parts of AROS which came lately are still in alpha-stadium and need massive improvement. AmigaOS 4.1 is far better developed. This might change in the (near?) future, and I would really like to see it.
If you just recompile AmigaOS 4.1 for x86, you need of course to recompile the software, too. Making it compatible to old software is possible, as Apple has embedded PPC compatibility, this can be done by AmigaOS, too. It is even more easy to use the the "JanusUAE" like in AROS, to make it even more compatible than ever. Running old Amiga software depending on the customchips, just by clicking on it.
The only real problems are currently the legal problems. If they will not be solved, it's a question of time when Aros will have more users than AmigaOS 4.x... |
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dylansmrjones
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Re: What would be advance in moving from SAM440 to SAM460 Posted on 28-Jun-2009 20:14:02
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Joined: 24-Jun-2009 Posts: 3
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| @all
Another option for future Amigas rather than processors from AMCC, would be switching to the QorIQ series from Freescale. Personally I'm quite hot for the QorlQ P2020. Not that it matters much as long as there isn't money around to develop new motherboards, or buy the components in quantities large enough to yield low prices (we're talking quantities of 10.000 - for this we'd need somewhere around 2.5 million US$ - for the components alone). Of course, the development cost could be reduced somewhat by utilizing an open source approach to hardware development. But it wouldn't work without cooperation between companies and the community, a scenario I´m afraid isn't particularly likely.
The whole x86 vs. PPC debate is pretty moot. The PPC isn't more expensive than x86, when bought in large quantities. Nor does PPC underperform in any way.
Oh, as a last thought. The Efika would make a nice Amiga netbook (oh, the dreams ) _________________ --- "Women remember, Steve. It's like they've got minds of their own." --- |
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