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PosterThread
Kronos 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 6-Jul-2009 20:15:52
#181 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@linnar

Quote:

linnar wrote:

What is Amino-Clown-Inc?


Well if you don't know that, you should refrain from posting here till you've done your homework.

And for the record:

I'm 100% capable of being sarcastic and serious at the same time Some might even say that I'm allways sarcastic and serious at the same time

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

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linnar 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 7-Jul-2009 17:38:38
#182 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@linnar

Quote:

linnar wrote:
@fairlanefastback

There are certainly some who produce applications with AA2 but it is not certain you want to show the code to their applications. It is the only way to see if it is easy to encode. But you're saying is that you can not read the code. Why be so interested to see the code for a program coded by AA2 when you can not read the code?


You misunderstand. I am saying that if its such a great tool to ease the coding process, why don't we see apps made with it? And why can't the few people outside Amiga, Inc. who back it make an impressive app and then tell us how AA2 really helped to cut down on development time etc.?

What good is a development tool that no one seems to be using to develop anything? If it has the main strength that Amiga, Inc. claims it does in its FAQ and that you seem to agree with, then why can't anyone demonstrate this power to us with an outputted worthwhile program of some sort?

OK!
There is, as I believe, 4 different reasons to why it has not yet shown any program made by Aa2:

1. Beta version
2. Information is limited on Aa2
3. A group of people defeating product
4. Amiga inc seems to have stopped the product temporarily

Amiga Inc has also, for various reasons, have accepted or caught in a situation not directly makes it easier to get developers to use Aa2.

_________________
There are very interesting in all languages.
http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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linnar 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 7-Jul-2009 17:51:18
#183 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@linnar

Quote:
I had no idea that Amiga Inc would not let Aa2 work on most common platforms.


Bill himself said in video from Digital Experience 2008 that they did not yet support a bunch of platforms with it. That basic public knowledge about AA2.

The disturbing part was extra OS support was not supposed to be far away at that point. But as far as we know in the public, 1.5 years later no other operating systems have been added.

Since you have access to Amiga, Inc.'s AA2 developer area, please let us know if that is no longer the case. Obviously if they started to support a bunch of operating systems that may be a game changer for their situation!

I am not with the Amiga inc's devloper area.
What I know about Aa2 support of different platforms and OS is what is in the Code as "# include" statements and I read about Aa2.

_________________
There are very interesting in all languages.
http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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linnar 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 7-Jul-2009 17:55:29
#184 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@minator

Quote:

minator wrote:
@linnar

Quote:
I distrubierar my program and other self. Given all the work required for it, I see that 40% to someone who handles the distribution that cheap.



Alternately you can develop for the iPhone, Apple ask for 30% but it gives you access to a highly popular store and close to 20 million potential customers.

That sounds like a rather better deal to me.

There is a big problem:
There is no "Amiga" in any way.

Can be programmed for the iPhone and then let the case be any of several different platforms / OS?

_________________
There are very interesting in all languages.
http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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linnar 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 7-Jul-2009 18:00:38
#185 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote:
@linnar

Quote:

linnar wrote:

What is Amino-Clown-Inc?


Well if you don't know that, you should refrain from posting here till you've done your homework.

And for the record:

I'm 100% capable of being sarcastic and serious at the same time Some might even say that I'm allways sarcastic and serious at the same time

Also for the record:

It is said that I can respond a little whimsy sometimes to pick out the sarcastic as part throw around them .

_________________
There are very interesting in all languages.
http://www.kensonpro.com
Program, codes for websites, hifi, measuring instruments and more. The site is of more than 1200 pages and nearly 3Gb .

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minator 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 7-Jul-2009 19:20:10
#186 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@linnar

Quote:
There is a big problem:
There is no "Amiga" in any way.


Other than the name, AA2 is also no "Amiga" in any way.

Quote:
Can be programmed for the iPhone and then let the case be any of several different platforms / OS?


Nope, but neither can AA2.

_________________
Whyzzat?

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fairlanefastback 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 7-Jul-2009 19:45:52
#187 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@linnar

Quote:

linnar wrote:
@fairlanefastback

I am not with the Amiga inc's devloper area.
What I know about Aa2 support of different platforms and OS is what is in the Code as "# include" statements and I read about Aa2.


How do you have AA2 if you don't have a login to here (their developer resource area login)?:

http://www.amiga.com/developers/index.php?Login=1

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 07-Jul-2009 at 07:59 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 7-Jul-2009 19:58:49
#188 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@linnar

Quote:
OK!
There is, as I believe, 4 different reasons to why it has not yet shown any program made by Aa2:

1. Beta version


So why should we care at all about it until its out of beta? When will that be? Will it be out of beta ever?

Quote:
2. Information is limited on Aa2


Well thats the fault of Amiga, Inc., no one else obviously.

Quote:
3. A group of people defeating product


Blaming consumers and programmers from the public instead of the company may make you feel better, but its a load of horse puckey (as Colonel Potter from M*A*S*H used to say).

Quote:
4. Amiga inc seems to have stopped the product temporarily


Let me guess, yet again you have no actual way of knowing if its temporary or permanent. You just hope its temporary. Them not paying an AA2 developer according to him and them having another lawsuit on their hands (from Inception suing them) are really bad signs.

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pavlor 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 7-Jul-2009 20:28:37
#189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
So why should we care at all about it until its out of beta? When will that be? Will it be out of beta ever?


OS4 for SAM is also beta...


AA2 must be very powerful application. We need 10 pages to debate about it!

Unfortunately both sides only repeat their sole argument:
AA2 supporters: It is nice solution!
AA2 opponents: A.Inc is evil, hence AA2 is garbage!


What will come next? Another 10 pages I think...

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fairlanefastback 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 7-Jul-2009 22:29:50
#190 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@fairlanefastback

Quote:
So why should we care at all about it until its out of beta? When will that be? Will it be out of beta ever?


OS4 for SAM is also beta...


AA2 must be very powerful application. We need 10 pages to debate about it!

Unfortunately both sides only repeat their sole argument:
AA2 supporters: It is nice solution!
AA2 opponents: A.Inc is evil, hence AA2 is garbage!


What will come next? Another 10 pages I think...


And your posts make up a decent amount of that content. Your black and white view is not correct. I'm not an AA2 opponent, neither are many others. We just see a ton of issues in calling this a good solution at this time and point out its very bleak prospects given a number of factors, like competition, history of the company, what has been accomplished since public release, etc. An outside-of-the-community forum plainly sees that too. Which is what the thread is about.

Your label (smilely or no) of "AA2 opponents: A.Inc is evil, hence AA2 is garbage!" might apply to a few folks, but certainly not the majority.

OS4 for SAM is a beta released to the public that has most of its proposed features. And people are using it successfully at what it is designed to be.

AA2 is a beta that is for developers. No one can show successful use of it that I have yet seen, and it is far from meeting its primary goal of supporting many environments. It may be more appropriate to call AA2 an alpha. I was speaking in context to how it exists as what Amiga has dubbed a beta. The fact that Amiga, Inc. made *anything* real at the time was a welcome glimmer of hope. But we can only appreciate that hope for so long if they are not going to show us any progress since. Its simply been too long again for most of us and many of us don't even care in the first place if its not an Amiga-like desktop OS, which it clearly is not.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 07-Jul-2009 at 10:44 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 07-Jul-2009 at 10:42 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 07-Jul-2009 at 10:32 PM.

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Pleng 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 8-Jul-2009 7:17:51
#191 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Nov-2005
Posts: 458
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

AA2 must be very powerful application. We need 10 pages to debate about it!


Please, explain further why 10 pages of debate equates a powerful application.

Quote:

Unfortunately both sides only repeat their sole argument:
AA2 supporters: It is nice solution!
AA2 opponents: A.Inc is evil, hence AA2 is garbage!


Nope. AA Opponents have listed several reasons against using it. You have yet, in all your contributions over the ten pages, to provide one solid advantage for using it.

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pavlor 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 8-Jul-2009 7:56:31
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
And your posts make up a decent amount of that content.


This is my 14th post in this threads.
First place belongs to linnar (52 posts...)
and second to you (27 posts...)

Quote:
might apply to a few folks, but certainly not the majority.


It is my opinion and your arguments still can not persuade me. Maybe it is stone head on my side, maybe weak arguments on the other side...

Quote:
OS4 for SAM is a beta released to the public that has most of its proposed features. And people are using it successfully at what it is designed to be.


You can say same about AA2... In comparison with Windows only few users use one of these applications (OS4 or AA2).

Quote:
No one can show successful use of it that I have yet seen, and it is far from meeting its primary goal of supporting many environments.


Its primal goal is to develop applications, A.Inc develop and sell applications designed with AA2, thus your argument is not valid.

Quote:
Its simply been too long again for most of us and many of us don't even care in the first place if its not an Amiga-like desktop OS, which it clearly is not.


I agree, many amigans look at A.Inc with emotions - from reasons you mentioned - and they judge products of this company with the same emotions.


I´am not strong AA2 supporter, I like its idea, nothing more. But I highly dislike posts that present itself as neutral, but are written with emotions and hate. As I wrote, this thread was started only with intention to bash A.Inc.

Last edited by pavlor on 08-Jul-2009 at 07:57 AM.

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-pekr- 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 8-Jul-2009 10:23:46
#193 ]
Member
Joined: 29-May-2007
Posts: 98
From: Unknown

@pavlor

"There is no spoon" ... ah, not a spoon, just AA2, at least from the public or even potential developer's pov. Look - I am a long time Amiga supporter. I even bought original AA1 SDK. But - there is something wrong here ...

1) Has anyone explained to us consequences of AA2 licence? I mean - it is licenced from Tao Group, which went bancrupt. Are we really sure, that Amiga Inc. owns the licence? This single fact was not clearly stated, and hence some developers might refuse to put their energy into something, which could be later sued by new owners of Tao Group's products ...

2) There is something wrong with development model. I can easily understand licencing of apps, we can see it with iPhone, etc. But - what about "try before you buy" principle? In order to get to AA2, you have to sign some really stupid agreement

3) Public perception. I am with REBOL from the very beginning, and it took us (the community) really long time to develop our relation with RT to acceptable level. But - we are finally there. R3 is in late alpha stage, but - we have two blogs, twitter channel, R3 dedicated website, public docbase, devbase (CVS), altme channels, curecode (bug-base), mailing list, publicly available early releases - simply all forces cooperating to bring new product to the market. I can talk to Carl almost on daily basis, he listens to us, the community. And RT is giving back - 90% of R3 is gonna be open-sourced. It is a great cooperation, and we are in a stage where we get over 100 tickets implemented in one month. Now - who's the AA2 developers/architects? How do I contact them? How can I influence the development of AA2 architecture? What is the schedule of AA2 development? Where's the public presence and communication?

You see? There is no AA2 ..... because everything surrounding its development model is absolutly wrong ...

-pekr-

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fairlanefastback 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 8-Jul-2009 11:39:35
#194 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@fairlanefastback

This is my 14th post in this threads.
First place belongs to linnar (52 posts...)
and second to you (27 posts...)


And hence you prove my point, for someone with over a post a page you can hardly act as if you have not kept it going to get to 10 pages and beyond that you are scoffing at why its 10 pages in the first place.

Quote:
It is my opinion and your arguments still can not persuade me. Maybe it is stone head on my side, maybe weak arguments on the other side...


Thats fine. I have no goal to persuade you. But I am also happy to respond to posts with a differing view while you try to paint a picture that you and linnar are neutral and anyone saying AA2 is in a really weak position and is relatively undesirable in its present form is a raving emotion driven hate-monger. Especially when in the real world, like in other communities with no emotional tie to Amiga Inc. have the same logical reaction as we do.

Quote:
Its primal goal is to develop applications, A.Inc develop and sell applications designed with AA2, thus your argument is not valid.


Which apps exactly? ghauber once said he believed one app that was previously released was re-released as an AA2 made app. But I never saw any backup to that. And no recent apps run even all the few operating systems AA2 supposedly does support. I can not buy Snowmanmaker for Linux as an example.

Quote:
I´am not strong AA2 supporter, I like its idea, nothing more. But I highly dislike posts that present itself as neutral, but are written with emotions and hate. As I wrote, this thread was started only with intention to bash A.Inc.


The problem is, if anyone lists reasons that they think the idea is, in 2009, no longer a great one considering already available competition you don't count it as neutral. You've decided, it seems, that anyone coming to the opposing conclusion you have must have gotten there from ill emotions. Thats simply not the case. This thread was made, from what I can tell, to inform the community of reaction from outside the community. And as many of us would suspect, reaction by folks in the real world was poor.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Jul-2009 at 11:52 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Jul-2009 at 11:52 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Jul-2009 at 11:50 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Jul-2009 at 11:42 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Jul-2009 at 11:41 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Jul-2009 at 11:40 AM.

_________________
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pavlor 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 8-Jul-2009 12:52:17
#195 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
And hence you prove my point, for someone with over a post a page you can hardly act as if you have not kept it going to get to 10 pages and beyond that you are scoffing at why its 10 pages in the first place.


pavlor: 15 posts
fairlanefastback: 28 posts

I hope that your response was not meant as a form of personal insult.

Quote:
while you try to paint a picture that you and linnar are neutral and anyone saying AA2 is in a really weak position and is relatively undesirable in its present form is a raving emotion driven hate-monger.


I don´ t think that I wrote that linnar or me are neutral. On the other hand I think that some anti AA posts were very good eg. those from Rogue, -pekr- or you.

Quote:
Which apps exactly?


http://www.amiga.com/shop/

Does it answer your question?

Quote:
You've decided, it seems, that anyone coming to the opposing conclusion you have must have gotten there from ill emotions.


Anyone? I mentioned Pleng only!

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fairlanefastback 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 8-Jul-2009 14:57:03
#196 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@pavlor

My point is its odd of you to make an issue of how long this thread is when you are helping to make it that long. The fact that you are not the one with the most posts is besides the point.

Quote:
http://www.amiga.com/shop/

Does it answer your question?


No, how could it? Most of these existed before AA2, and none appear that they could be AA2 because none support all the operating systems that AA2 is supposed to already support (like Linux). It makes me wonder, do you even know much about AA2 in the first place?

Quote:
On the other hand I think that some anti AA posts were very good eg. those from Rogue, -pekr- or you.


Thanks, though I seem to remember you saying others besides Pleng (I thought you referred to me once as having emotion involved in why I bring up issues about AA2). If I am off on that assessment, my apologies.

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
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fairlanefastback 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 8-Jul-2009 15:03:50
#197 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4886
From: MA, USA

@-pekr-

Quote:
-pekr- wrote:
1) Has anyone explained to us consequences of AA2 licence? I mean - it is licenced from Tao Group, which went bancrupt. Are we really sure, that Amiga Inc. owns the licence? This single fact was not clearly stated, and hence some developers might refuse to put their energy into something, which could be later sued by new owners of Tao Group's products ...


Tao is out of the picture, supposedly:

Quote:
Bill McEwen wrote:

With regard to recent comments about Tao and Intent, the reality is that Amiga does not support Intent and we have not since before Tao was forced into receivership. We have been working on our “AA2” solution for Amiga Anywhere. We wanted to keep quiet about it until the SDK and documentation were completed and made public when it was ready to ship. However, because of recent posts where incorrect statements have been made, we want to let you all know that Amiga Anywhere is not dependent on intent and that the new solution is in the pipeline .

above from: http://www.amiga.com/news/?art=32

Quote:
-pekr- wrote:
3) Public perception. I am with REBOL from the very beginning, and it took us (the community) really long time to develop our relation with RT to acceptable level. But - we are finally there. R3 is in late alpha stage, but - we have two blogs, twitter channel, R3 dedicated website, public docbase, devbase (CVS), altme channels, curecode (bug-base), mailing list, publicly available early releases - simply all forces cooperating to bring new product to the market. I can talk to Carl almost on daily basis, he listens to us, the community. And RT is giving back - 90% of R3 is gonna be open-sourced. It is a great cooperation, and we are in a stage where we get over 100 tickets implemented in one month. Now - who's the AA2 developers/architects? How do I contact them? How can I influence the development of AA2 architecture? What is the schedule of AA2 development? Where's the public presence and communication?


Yep, agree 100 percent. This shows the kind of effort required that Amiga is just not making.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Jul-2009 at 03:09 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Jul-2009 at 03:09 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 08-Jul-2009 at 03:08 PM.

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Wildstar128 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 8-Jul-2009 18:08:38
#198 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@fairlanefastback

Let me explain this to you. I got the tools so therefore it doesn't really matter if the current Amiga Inc. goes belly-up.

Let me put it to you in another context. I and among others has developed apps and stuff for the Commodore 64 10 and more years after Commodore Business Machines Limited when bankrupt in 1994. As far as Commodore 64 and Commodore 8-Bit stuff, it has already been assumed that any future support for Commodore 64 would not be coming from that company. We continued to use the tools we had and some even made new tools. The future for content does not rely on whether or not the Company still exists. What matters is the people making content and continuing to use it.

Making applications using the AmigaAnywhere API can continue to be used from now until ever. The point is, I have the tools, I can make whatever library extensions that I feel so to add to my API libraries set and I include it among any other API mechanism that I feel deemed. This SDA is an agreement that allows me to use the AmigaAnywhere API from now until the earth incinerates in the sun. In other words, there is no defined limit on the term period of the SDA agreement. It doesn't have to be renewed every so many years.

Amiga was very nice with the SDA. Despite popular belief.

To put it simply, if you the developer allow Amiga Inc. to distribute/sell your software as a product through their store (online store or other channels by Amiga Inc.) then they keep 40% and is to pay the developer 60% of the net proceeds. That is fair and reasonable when you have someone else distribute your software. This is a common distributor agreement and part of the SDA is authorizing Amiga Inc. to be a distributor of software titles but you the developer has the choice on what titles they distribute. The SDA authorizes the developer to use the AmigaAnywhere API/middleware platform. If I so choose to distribute directly or through another distributor then it is my choice as the Developer.


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Wildstar128 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 8-Jul-2009 18:35:53
#199 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@Pleng

If you want to see some of the existing apps and not wait then go to the Amiga Inc. store and buy the games you see there. Take a look at Genetic Species. Ok, it appears to be a port over of a classic Amiga game onto Amiga Anywhere and new games do keep popping up. Apps that are free to download, well, I haven't seen but then personally I don't know. I haven't dug through all of Youtube to see what kinds of game apps are there.

If I want to write a 3D game then I would hybrid 3D multimedia power of OpenGL with AmigaAnywhere which is more a hardware-level abstraction API. Hardware that has hw-level OpenGL 3D modeling/rendering support would get the greatest performance versus sw 3D model/rendering but that is a matter of planning.

50% reduction of development time is an unrealistic statement that doesn't really occur in programming field. Every app/game is different and it is familiarity in the coding and competence and many other factor that determines production time reduction.

If I can type one letter and save the file and it compiles the entire code of the program I want then that would be awesome but it don't work that way these days.

I've looked at SDL code and it don't neccassarily improve productivity time to that of AA and vice versa. You have to get familiar with it and you have to plug in the info that each library function needs throughout the program.

Also, if you are not familar with writing 3D games then your productive time is worse then that of someone who is familiar to writing 3D games. Also, if you are not familiar with the syntax then you have to learn the syntax. There is no such thing as going from one language or syntax set to another without having to learn. If the syntax for AA and SDL was the same, then that would be a copyright violation - don't you think?

If AA's syntax was the same as SDL then it isn't AA. There has to be a difference in order for there to be an identity.

AA is AA. SDL is SDL. If you are familair and happy with SDL use it. AmigaAnywhere is its own API and it is possible to use multiple API in a single game or software. C/C++ makes that possible with simple functions of C/C++ like includes. Its a library. That is what an API is.

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Wildstar128 
Re: AmigaAnywhere gets introduced to the Pandora community...
Posted on 8-Jul-2009 18:41:45
#200 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@minator

Quote:
Alternately you can develop for the iPhone, Apple ask for 30% but it gives you access to a highly popular store and close to 20 million potential customers. That sounds like a rather better deal to me.


Yes and yes you can with AA apps and there probably is apps that uses it but we just don't know about it.

The SDA (agreement) does not limit me to them. If I was looking for distribution range then I look for multiple distributors.

Yes, we can do that. Some probably are and built game titles that uses AmigaAnywhere technology and we just don't know about it because they don't make a big fuss that it was made using AA. It isn't like we were given the list of all the SDA signees.

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