@Wildstar128

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It is realistic to not be able to tell an AA2 app/game from any other game written with other API because IIRC: AA2 doesn't require a special player and if apps are compiled all the way down to native binary then we don't know because there isn't a bouncing ball on the screen with Amiga logo. It is straightforward. So that always a possibility.

How much are straws worth? If they have any real monetary value then AA developers are quids in, because I've never met a group of people who can find so many straws to clutch at?

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For me, I used some of the methods explained above because it was convenient and served the purpose.

So you have actually created things with AA?

Really?

Show us.

I think I fugured the key element here. Fat binary approach and setting up the Fat binary for each and every CPU chain is an important step. I'm going to have to study that a bit more myself.

I'm a dinosaur so I am not 100% understanding of Fat binary in nature but I believe it is in theory theoretically possible to compile chain this for all the known CPUs but need to setup everything for it. That is probably how they got around needing intent.

@Pleng

Quote:

by Pleng on 9-Jul-2009 11:34:51 @Wildstar128 Quote: It is realistic to not be able to tell an AA2 app/game from any other game written with other API because IIRC: AA2 doesn't require a special player and if apps are compiled all the way down to native binary then we don't know because there isn't a bouncing ball on the screen with Amiga logo. It is straightforward. So that always a possibility. How much are straws worth? If they have any real monetary value then AA developers are quids in, because I've never met a group of people who can find so many straws to clutch at? Quote: For me, I used some of the methods explained above because it was convenient and served the purpose. So you have actually created things with AA? Really? Show us.

The last part, I haven't yet created stuff other then dabble with it at this point in time for AA but I've done work in other projects. That statement was inclusive of all projects I worked on and not limited to scope. I've worked on projects for C64 and most developers I been across writing games unless for opensource (then there is SourceForge) are closed to outside world. AA isn't suited for C64 development work but bottom line the group structure works similarly in every platform. Most AA developers have ties to Amiga and Amiga sw deve scene and Commodore sw dev scene follows similar structure and most dev teams makes use of current technology. I've worked on a game for C64 in a small group and it was conventient for us for the projects to use a private forum, email and IRC andI would think that was done by or something similar by AA developers.

It is obvious that anyone that did work where more than one person was involved and they were geographically from different locations that they used the internet, private email and instant mesaging/IRC communication or whatever to discuss project and pass files back and forth on the matter.

It isn't an uncommon rule of developers to not publically talk about their projects until they have done the project or some substantial work on it. Some stuff is a one man production and he/she simply wrote it and put it up for sale.

No need for outside communication or use of the Amiga Inc. Developer Exchange area to discuss their game. They produce and put it up.

I am also not going to discuss any project that I may have/if I have until I am serious about putting time into writing them and releasing it. Other criterias that applies:

- substantial code work is done or is their (I may invite someone for gfx, music and other stuff in private and discrete means from general public when I have some code framework in place

- When I can feel comfortable to demonstrate a screenshot that isn't crap.

- When there a reasonable ability to guestimate a completion time. In most circumstance, public announcement of stuff is when stuff is completed. I've been burned in the past.

So for now, I'm not annoucing any projects even if it is currently ideas. For me, I'm currently dabbling a little for right now.

@Wildstar128

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I've worked on projects for C64 and mo...

So your justification for promoting AA as a technology of the future is that you've developed software for the C64 long after it outlived its usefulness?

Good for you.




My participation ends here.

@Pleng

No. Here you are adding words and distorting what is said.

My C64 experience has no bearing. It was to illustrate an example that development doesn't need to or depend on needing a company.

People program for C64 not because of "popularity". They program because they like the computer. People program for Amiga and TI and Apple. I point to C64 to point out a personal experience not to mean other don't support other computers.

If someone wants to use AmigaAnywhere then they should and not be afraid to develop and shouldn't be ridiculed for using it.

I'll ask you what financial loss have you received because of Amiga Inc. Only those with financial damage (material damage) have a right to complain about Amiga.

You don't have a right to complain because you wait 6 or more months for an OS if you haven't even spent money to pre-order. If you had then you only have the right to post once about it and not more then those who have greater financial damage because of Amiga Inc. You have an AmigaOne, you buy a computer for the expectation that it will work until end of warranty. With my Amiga1200, I have to spend alot more then a few million dollars to get new chips for my A1200 if I can't get a spare A1200. So quit complaining.

If you want to complain about evils in the world go after Maurice Randall of Click Here software who has customers who have been waiting 4+ years for their order to be fulfilled and still waiting.

Why should someone use AmigaAnywhere is a question that a person choses for themselves. If you want to write programs on multiple platforms then it can provide you that. If you want to support it because it is an Amiga brand product then you can certainly use it. There are other options but the point is - it is a fairly straight forward API. If you already learned SDL or other APIs and you are concern about losing any productivity time then you wouldn't be wanting to learn any new API then what you are familiar with. Learning anything new slows down productivity.

Once you learn how to program for it, it is hard to gauge any increase production time because one API versus another API doesn't have a clear line improvement over each other in productive time because you can't in any real world sense gauge it. You can't consistantly type at the same rate all the time, every day. The only gaugable improvement is the number of characters you have to type and how intuitive the language is to you.

AmigaAnywhere maybe more intuitive to some people then others by syntax and structure.

I don't promote that it will reduce your programming time by more then 50%. Not realistic and would be a lie and fraudulent because so many factors are involved. Other APIs in use, the familiarity of the programmer.

Hell, there is arguments and debates about Java versus C/C++. Then there are the pro-Visual BASIC folks which having worked with Java and Visual Basic in the past. Visual Basic 6.0 (my last experience with it) does provide a human intuitive language that is quick and easy to build apps quickly but there is some cons to it. Your application environment is not as flexible.

Arguing about API is silly and stupid as arguing about programming languages. Some like tea, some like coffee and some like beer and some like cola. Choose your beverage of choice for yourself.

I promoted it for one thing and one thing only - to provide another API choice for use on Pandora and having as many choices of APIs as possible so that there is as many choices of programs as possible. As I develop games and stuff using AmigaAnywhere, I would hope to provide it to Pandora hw users as well as other platforms. That is the point. I speak more for myself then other developers including other AA developers.

Just as there is some calling Moblin the crappiest OS to be ported to Pandora (a thread on the Pandora forums) which again is just a choice. So, AA is promoited for diversity of choices. If things changes around the stigma of Amiga Inc. and Hyperion then there maybe some move forward.

Some of my points here is to quit worrying about Amiga Inc. If Amiga Inc. goes belly-up then I have no qualms of bringing the SDK out into open. If Hyperion takes over Amiga, they will probably put AA into GPL and get it out of way. Who knows what will happen. Games and apps using AA can still be developed with or without Amiga Inc. and they don't matter. Make stuff and produce stuff.

The development issue has been impacted mostly by the Amiga-Hyperion lawsuit issue.

The flaming and attacking and insulting / ect. people for using AmigaAnywhere and even trying to muster up get AA developers moving forward with AA games & apps is silly.

Pleng, a good game is not dependent on any API. Use whatever API you want and produce a good game. Period. I task AA developers to do so with AA and produce good games and apps.

@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote: @Pleng If someone wants to use AmigaAnywhere then they should and not be afraid to develop and shouldn't be ridiculed for using it.

I think this would greatly depend on the experience level of the developer. If you are new at it, you are going to want a community with decent support. Thats not present in this case. If you depend on development tools for business, you might want a tech support dept. you can deal with. Again, that does not appear present here. This is just common sense. If you are a hobbyist developer sure, mess around with it, no harm. Or maybe you are an experienced one and because you like the brand name and came across it from that you'll get a kick out of doing what you did to make it more useful. If that gives someone some fun, sure, why not!

As far as the ridicule I think you have it backwards. You have folks asking honestly where any outputted apps are. And no one can show us any. Instead we get (to paraphrase, "well there must be some", or "I'm sure some at the Amiga.com store must be made with it". But yet I'll mention again, the whole point of AA2 is the supposed operating system portability. And when Amiga.com does not sell a single Linux app, its pretty clear that the only safe assumption, absent of proof to the contrary, is that none of what they sell is an AA2 app. And even if any of it was, Snowmanmaker for Windows is not impressing anyone.

What is being questioned is the reality distortion field where some folks are acting as if its abnormal to point any of this out as a problem. And its just bizarre to many that some are wondering why we don't all think AA2 is impressive already.

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I'll ask you what financial loss have you received because of Amiga Inc. Only those with financial damage (material damage) have a right to complain about Amiga.

People complain that the band Journey has a new lead singer, and they do it without having suffered a financial loss. People complain that there is too much coverage of Michael Jackson on TV, also, they aren't losing money over that. This is a discussion forum. If Amiga does not want us to talk about their products and our related opinions, they need to get into another business.

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Arguing about API is silly and stupid as arguing about programming languages. Some like tea, some like coffee and some like beer and some like cola. Choose your beverage of choice for yourself.

Sure. But the solution here is obvious. Output some programs, and tell us how long they took you to make them with AA2, and why/how AA2 made your life that much easier as a developer to do it. And gives us multiple OS versions all at once since thats core to AA2. Then and only then would you maybe raise some eyebrows that it might be worth any bother. Until then, if Amiga itself can't be bothered to prove any of that out, nor do any of the developers, then you are not going to convince anyone through posts at Open Pandora or here. You need to provide some substance in the form of MAKING something with the tool.

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The development issue has been impacted mostly by the Amiga-Hyperion lawsuit issue.

This kind of statement from a few folks is getting really, really old. Proof, do you have any? Hyperion keeps updating their product, and they are not a company that has had millions USD poured into it as far as anyone can tell. But we know that has happened with Amiga, Inc. We have seen the Prokom stock report. And you can hardly claim you have millions to throw around at a arena during the lawsuit and then act like you can't do a damn thing to develop your product at all.

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The flaming and attacking and insulting / ect. people for using AmigaAnywhere and even trying to muster up get AA developers moving forward with AA games & apps is silly.

Use it, have a blast! The more who use it the better as far as I am concerned, then the more we learn about it. And if its any good, god bless! The problem I see here is people asking valid questions and then some folks acting like they are somehow bizarre concerns.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

I can't answer all the questions myself but there is alot of questions. Overwheming. Anyway, I sorry if I got a little angry/fustrated.

I don't know all the software titles made using AA api especially AA2 as it would be harder to tell. As far as I know, a modern major production game could be using it and we don't know.

I concur that Amiga Inc. should be doing more on their part but I am willing to bring out what I know and learn by using AmigaAnywhere and task others to do the same. The AA developer community can take it from where Amiga Inc. leaves off and as soon as Amiga Inc. gets off their duffs then all the better.

The problem with answering some of the questions is that I don't know all the SDA developers and also I don't know all the apps/games/ect. that uses it since some of it may very well have passed through our radars. It isn't like every app/game will have fancy logo splash screen saying this app uses AmigaAnywhere so the honest answer is I don't know. Of the titles I do know and we all know or able to quickly research on Google or Amiga Inc. website. Is it the limits of the API?

The stuff that I do see really doesn't show off anything.

Your comment:
"Sure. But the solution here is obvious. Output some programs, and tell us how long they took you to make them with AA2, and why/how AA2 made your life that much easier as a developer to do it. And gives us multiple OS versions all at once since thats core to AA2. Then and only then would you maybe raise some eyebrows that it might be worth any bother. Until then, if Amiga itself can't be bothered to prove any of that out, nor do any of the developers, then you are not going to convince anyone through posts at Open Pandora or here. You need to provide some substance in the form of MAKING something with the tool."

Sums up what really needs to be done and is the best solution because as of current there isn't any clear knowledge of any apps outside of that is through Amiga Inc. store. I agree with you in your "solution" statement.

I'm a slow programmer but others can probably do it faster but hey something is better than nothing.

Last edited by Wildstar128 on 10-Jul-2009 at 01:27 AM.
Last edited by Wildstar128 on 10-Jul-2009 at 01:25 AM.

@Wildstar128

Quote:

As far as I know, a modern major production game could be using it and we don't know.

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The problem with answering some of the questions is that I don't know all the SDA developers and also I don't know all the apps/games/ect. that uses it since some of it may very well have passed through our radars

Quote:

The stuff that I do see really doesn't show off anything.

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I'm a slow programmer but others can probably do it faster but hey something is better than nothing.

You do know that nobody here believes a single one of these excuses, regardless of the amount of times you repeat yourself, right?

Slow programmer? I thought one of the key features of AA was that it was easy to rapidly develop games for multiple platforms. Somebody in this thread (I think it was fastlane) has asked, on more than one occasion, for somebody to produce a simple pong game with AmigaAnywhere. Even a 'slow programmer' should be able to do that in less than a day in any language! I could certainly do that with VB.net in a morning - and with MONO it'd be able to run on all the platforms that AA is supposedly targeting.

So there's your challange: A Pong game, written in Amiga Anywhere. Create it, let us download it. Then tell us how long it took you and provide the source code.

If you can't do that then you really have no place defending AA.

@Pleng

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You do know that nobody here believes a single one of these excuses, regardless of the amount of times you repeat yourself, right?

Do you remember me?

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Slow programmer? I thought one of the key features of AA was that it was easy to rapidly develop games for multiple platforms. Somebody in this thread (I think it was fastlane) has asked, on more than one occasion, for somebody to produce a simple pong game with AmigaAnywhere. Even a 'slow programmer' should be able to do that in less than a day in any language! I could certainly do that with VB.net in a morning - and with MONO it'd be able to run on all the platforms that AA is supposedly targeting.

Can we see some of your work?

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So there's your challange: A Pong game, written in Amiga Anywhere. Create it, let us download it. Then tell us how long it took you and provide the source code.

Wait until my development adviser returns from Germany...

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If you can't do that then you really have no place defending AA.

Why? It is his democratic right to defend almost anything.

@pavlor

OK, sorry but I tend to group the two of you together.

Nobody other than other AA fanboys. Anytbody who is anti-AA (obviously so) and anybody who is neutral does not accept these quite frankly pathetic excuses.

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Wait until my development adviser returns from Germany...

And come on then, I'm going to bite. WHY do you need a development adviser to develop a pong game?

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So there's your challange: A Pong game, written in Amiga Anywhere. Create it, let us download it. Then tell us how long it took you and provide the source code. If you can't do that then you really have no place defending AA.

I like it!

_________________
Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!

@Pleng

Quote:

Nobody other than other AA fanboys. Anytbody who is anti-AA (obviously so) and anybody who is neutral does not accept these quite frankly pathetic excuses.

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And come on then, I'm going to bite. WHY do you need a development adviser to develop a pong game?

Because HE is a software developer, not me... He develops applications for me and I do betatesting...

@Pleng

I haven't even started writing code on that at the moment. I haven't started or agreed at the time to write the program.

If I'm not busy, I'll put something together today or some point this weekend.

I'll compile it to one platform and if I am lucky to find a ARM-Linux cross compiler for Windows to use to compile the tool chain. I may need to re-build the MinGW C/++ compiler setup to employ the additional cross compilers using the steps explained here:

http://www.mingw.org/wiki/HostedCrossCompilerHOWTO

Someone who is well versed with GCC/MinGW would know how to do this outright. I just haven't done it before so setting it up will take a little bit of learning. Once I got that, then I can compile to other target cpus. I can ignore the AA fatso binary format for now. It is setup for doing a fatbinary for Windows on x86 & ARM but alternatives exists to addressing the compile and various fat binary systems exists and even compiling C/C++ to a pseudo-machine code. Perhaps... P-Code? Java byte code format and others.

Right now " I " can only target x86 and ARM for Windows/Windows CE. I can't test execution of code for ARM - Windows CE because I don't currently have such device.

Last edited by Wildstar128 on 10-Jul-2009 at 10:49 AM.

@Wildstar128

Quote:

As far as I know, a modern major production game could be using it and we don't know.

Possibly. Though that seems like very wishful thinking to me personally. One reason alone of the top of my head is that a company large enough to do a modern major production is likely to use well known tools, or even make their own, thats usually what is expected by the people providing the money to fund.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Yeah, but companies can and will whatever tools and there isn't any criteria of what tools to use by fananciers. The agreed answer is - We don't know.

Once I'm able to wake u, I'll dabble around.

@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote: As far as I know, a modern major production game could be using it and we don't know.

More bovine excrement.

Why the hell would a 'modern major game producer' choose to give away 40% of their profits to Amiga Inc just for the use of their toolchain ?
They already have all the game engines, IDEs, compilers,debuggers etc that they need to do their job, Plus,all their employees and contractors already know these tools inside out, how much time will it take to bring them all up to speed to use AA2 ?

What is the support like for AA2 anyway? How long does Amiga take to reply to technical questions, fix bugs etc ?

Switching to AA2 doesn't make any commercial sense for anyone except small 'one man band' companies and back bedroom coders.

Last edited by Doobrey on 10-Jul-2009 at 09:01 PM.

_________________

@Doobrey

Quote:

Doobrey wrote: @Wildstar128 Quote: Wildstar128 wrote: As far as I know, a modern major production game could be using it and we don't know. More bovine excrement. Why the hell would a 'modern major game producer' choose to give away 40% of their profits to Amiga Inc just for the use of their toolchain ? They already have all the game engines, IDEs, compilers,debuggers etc that they need to do their job, Plus,all their employees and contractors already know these tools inside out, how much time will it take to bring them all up to speed to use AA2 ? What is the support like for AA2 anyway? How long does Amiga take to reply to technical questions, fix bugs etc ? Switching to AA2 doesn't make any commercial sense for anyone except small 'one man band' companies and back bedroom coders.

The first part where you say give away 40% of their profit.

That has been addressed. That is OPTIONAL. OPTIONAL OPTIONAL OPTIONAL.

YOU ONLY HAVE TO GIVE AWAY 40% OF PROCEEDS IF YOU USE AMIGA INC. AS DISTRIBUTOR. YOU ARE NOT LIMITED TO USING THEM AS DISTRIBUTOR.

This major production companies can distribute their own software so Amiga Inc. doesn't receive a penny or even a single Yen or single Italian Lira.

A 60% / 40% deal is for using their distribution services. If you don't want to, you don't have to. Simple as that. It is not required. So you can receive 100% of your proceeds but anytime you use any company for a distributor of your games, apps,ect. some of the proceeds are going to be taken by the distributor. Usually a set percentage. If you want to use another service then you are perfectly fine to do so.

Anyway... WHY THE HELL ARE WE ARGUING?

Why would anyone use Java, BASIC, 6502 Machine Language, Pascal, SDL API, Qt API, ect. is up to each and every programmer and is none of mine or your business. It all comes down to choice and preference of syntax and how it is intuitive to each person and what you are trying to do. I'd use AA for what it provides me and use other APIs for what it provides. Then all that is left is "interfacing" between each API so the data values can be processed and transferred across. Nothing really magical.

I'll get to writing the Pong program later. I haven't started so quit directing questions that don't relate to the API to me. Amiga Inc. relates only up to the point SDA, the kit and certain matters involving copyrighted SDK and the fact that they made the API. Amiga Inc. has no relevance as to how you program for the API and what you can make with the API.

@everyone

The discussion began originally about the API not Amiga Inc. and the ability to use the API in the production of applications, games, utilities, ect. for Pandora. This wasn't about the discussion of supporting Amiga Inc. If you are so ant-Amiga Inc. then don't use the API because no one is forcing you to so continue using whatever you use. If you're neutral, it doesn't cost money to signed the SDA other than normal postal mail. Secondly, you can download the SDK and try it out. If you don't like the SDK but like the libraries then you can use another compiler setup. If you don't like AA for what it provides then you can choose to go with something else. If you like the AA libraries but it doesn't cover everything you need then you can combine libraries from other APIs and stuff and use it along side with AA. It is a choice matter and you are free to do that.

Amiga Inc. isn't going to sue you for making apps/games with the API. To the best of my knowledge they NEVER have done so. Anyone claiming that better have court proof not hearsay which is 100% b.s. in every forum on earth as far as I care. Only court documents will have the unbiased and 100% facts. Not emotional butt-dribbles from outsiders who have nothing to do with the case.

If you got court proof then I'll read every single document on that case if you provide it.

I'm calling for pure facts to best of knowledge.

If you want to sell your produced AA games, you don't have to use Amiga Inc. to distribute software. You may choose to use other distributors or distribute yourself.

Last edited by Wildstar128 on 10-Jul-2009 at 10:58 PM.
Last edited by Wildstar128 on 10-Jul-2009 at 10:51 PM.

@Wildstar128

Wow...

And people were claiming that my posts were emotional!

@Pleng

Just aggravated about going over in circles and the topic being about Amiga Inc. and not AA API.

Last edited by Wildstar128 on 11-Jul-2009 at 01:04 AM.

@Wildstar128

Quote:

Just aggravated about going over in circles and the topic being about Amiga Inc. and not AA API.

But, unlike most of your ramblings, the Amiga Inc discussions bring up valid points.

You can't separate AA and Amiga Inc

If you need support there appears to be no community to provide it so you are going to be relying on Amiga Inc.

You say AA is production ready, and linnar says AA is still beta. So, who is to be believed? If AA is, indeed, beta then you rely on the parent company to bring it OUT of beta stage and into a fully fledged product.

So you're relying on Amiga Inc for support and continued development. Therefore Amiga Incs history and reputation has every much importance in discussion of the language, as the features of the language and what it can produce.

Because of this, Amiga Inc is a big factor in the 'why bother using AA?' side of the debate. We would be only happy to discuss the merits of the features of the language itself and have repeatedly asked for:

• Features of the language that are not available in other, free and open, solutions.
  
• Examples of software that has been created with AA.
  
• Examples of AA source code.