@olegil

If I went too far with my language, then I'm sorry jkirk.

I do think even dreams need to have some grounding. I've asked for details of new ideas, features, advantages niches to go into, and nobody can give me a *single good reason* to believe in their dream.

As as happened for the past 10 years, they just repeatedly tell me to dream, be ambitious and so on. How is this ambition supposed to manifest itself, exactly?


"Set some ambitious goals for the long time strategy of Amiga, and let's work TOGETHER to reach those goals. A long as the work is fun, what harm can it do?"

I'm not sure how we can work together on a strategy for a private company, unless you're talking about another Amiga-like platform. That's just an aside - give me an idea of these ambitious goals and how we set about achieving them.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 24-Jul-2009 at 11:02 AM.
Last edited by clebin on 24-Jul-2009 at 11:01 AM.

Maybe we should set up a petition or donation page for Hyperion to get them motivated to service the community with bait for our hunger of knowing what the future holds?

I could Paypal 1 euro for the info, lets say we are 500 person here that is 500 euro for a hint? :)

Last edited by cv643d on 24-Jul-2009 at 11:12 AM.
Last edited by cv643d on 24-Jul-2009 at 11:12 AM.
Last edited by cv643d on 24-Jul-2009 at 11:11 AM.

@cv643d

Quote:

cv643d wrote: Maybe we should set up a petition or donation page for Hyperion to get them motivated to service the community with bait for our hunger of knowing what the future holds? I could Paypal 1 euro for the info, lets say we are 500 person here that is 500 euro for a hint? :)

How about we all put $1000 into a fund to develop PearPC to run OS4 on standard PCs?

_________________
Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!

@Darth_X

Because PearPC doesn't contain the dongle code, and you'd be wasting your money.

_________________
Simon

Comments made by me on any public fora are not representative of, or on behalf of, any company I may have, or assumed by the reader to have, any association with.

Any comments are a personal opinion, and should be accepted as such.

@clebin

Quote:

clebin wrote: @olegil I do think even dreams need to have some grounding. I've asked for details of new ideas, features, advantages niches to go into, and nobody can give me a *single good reason* to believe in their dream.

I understand what you mean, but are you asking about worthwhile features of OS4, or about ideas for a business plan to promote the OS?

Varthall

_________________
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

@clebin

Quote:

I do think even dreams need to have some grounding

If dreams need to have a grounding then we probably still be in the stone age.Because all is impossible until someone do it.Example the human dream of fly is what made the humanity investigate and discover all the technology and laws of physics that make possible fly today.In this age you probably would be saying that fly is a impossible task and that people have to settle for seeing the birds fly.Now is clear to know why and how to fly but in the beginning it seemed even more mad dream than make AmigaOS the third or four mainstream OS

Last edited by Fransexy on 24-Jul-2009 at 12:34 PM.

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@Darth_X

Quote:

Darth_X wrote: @cv643d Quote: cv643d wrote: Maybe we should set up a petition or donation page for Hyperion to get them motivated to service the community with bait for our hunger of knowing what the future holds? I could Paypal 1 euro for the info, lets say we are 500 person here that is 500 euro for a hint? :) How about we all put $1000 into a fund to develop PearPC to run OS4 on standard PCs?

Are you going to put the issue of pearpc in all threads?
What happens to you today? too little sex?

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

Quote:

rigo wrote: @Darth_X Because PearPC doesn't contain the dongle code, and you'd be wasting your money.

Neither PowerUP nor Peg2 versions of OS4 require a dongle

_________________
Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: Are you going to put the issue of pearpc in all threads? What happens to you today? too little sex?

I need your support, not your sex

_________________
Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!

@Darth_X

Quote:

Darth_X wrote: Quote: Fransexy wrote: Are you going to put the issue of pearpc in all threads? What happens to you today? too little sex? I need your support, not your sex

Ok! is not because too little sex, it´s because too much alcohol

Last edited by Fransexy on 24-Jul-2009 at 12:48 PM.

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@Fransexy

But is that what you do? My impression is the total opposite- you want to breathlife in a 20 year old system; It doesn't appear that forward thinking to me.

And yes I know the argument "most systems of today are based on 70s thinking", sure UNIX was ahead of it's time- even more so than AmigaOS; But what many totally ignore is the number of reversions and irritations it went through- UNIX today isn't backward compatible with UNIX in the 70s; It moved on- adopted new ideas dropped legacy support etc. that's why it's alive and kicking today. Not to forget that it's prove of how well designed the system was.

And that's what I think it the big failure with most Amiga projects, they try so badly to retain back compability that they get stuck in the same trap over and over again. Then there are othersystems that partially dropped back compability- support for the custom chipset...
And that makes me wonder, Wasn't the custom chipset that made Amiga different and good? And that most computers picked up these days- you won't find a modern computer that don't have alot of hardware to unload the CPU.

Why on earth do you save the most flawed part of the amiga (the OS) that's basically impossible to bring uptodate, I think AROS is moving a generally better direction here more than other projects. Doesn't it do what you all dreamed of- allow you to run an amiga like OS on modern hardware?

Quote:

Why on earth do you save the most flawed part of the amiga (the OS) that's basically impossible to bring uptodate, I think AROS is moving a generally better direction here more than other projects. Doesn't it do what you all dreamed of- allow you to run an amiga like OS on modern hardware?

AROS doesn't drop anything, that's the problem. It's still backward compatible (at source level) with the old AmigaOS. So it has the same limitations. No memory protection, no resource tracking, and so on...

MorphOS took the good approach neither AROS nor OS4 choosed: a sandbox. Only problem is that they are focusing on the AmigaOS one instead of designing and improving a new modern one... So again, focus is put on the *past* with the same limitations.

OS4 and AROS will have to go to this approach if they want to mordenize the OS and keep compatibility with the new wave of software they created (AROS and OS4 one respectively).

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Darth_X

So how is the OS development going then, seeing as you have access to the source code, and know explicitely about it's inner workings?

_________________
Simon

Comments made by me on any public fora are not representative of, or on behalf of, any company I may have, or assumed by the reader to have, any association with.

Any comments are a personal opinion, and should be accepted as such.

@Fransexy

I agree with Frek. You're not forward thinking or open-minded when your signature says "No PowerPC, no fun". The Mac I'm typing this on has two dual-core 2.66ghz 64bit processors and the OS uses all 4 cores. It's not even a new Mac, which could have 2 quad-core 2.93ghz CPUs, but you'd reject these advances based on a childhood feud with MS-DOS and Windows 3.

To answer Varthall's question, I was asking for features, ideas, business plans, market niches or any possible reason to believe in these dreams of the Amiga becoming mainstream, big, or a serious non-hobby OS again (I list these because there seems to be varying degrees of "ambition" here)

Your best answer was 'cavemen' and 'the Wright Brothers'! Do you really not have any viable ideas to support what you say?

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 24-Jul-2009 at 02:28 PM.
Last edited by clebin on 24-Jul-2009 at 02:27 PM.

@Leo

Sorry, yes you're right.
What I thought of was that AROS don't retain 68k compatibility- but uses UAE in those cases instead.
And yes MorphOS "concept" was a good idea, but unfortunately it seems MorphOS really isn't anything but this "sandbox", I don't know about Quark or whatever buzzword they use for the so called "microkernel", but I just cant see any point having it seeing how drivers and everything seems to be inside the sandbox.

But yes the concept is good.

@Darth_X

Quote:

Darth_X wrote: Quote: rigo wrote: @Darth_X Because PearPC doesn't contain the dongle code, and you'd be wasting your money. Neither PowerUP nor Peg2 versions of OS4 require a dongle

Dongle? That reminds me of a joke. What's that useless piece of skin attached to the [insert term for your choice of male or female reproductive anatimy here]?

So I say "What do you call the dongle attached to OS4" That's called the hardware. The A1 is a dongle. PPC Amigas are a dongle. SAM is a dongle. Peg2 is a dongle.

Find yourself a dongle and play with it.

Last edited by Lou on 24-Jul-2009 at 02:36 PM.

@Frek

Quote:

Frek wrote: @Fransexy But is that what you do? My impression is the total opposite- you want to breathlife in a 20 year old system; It doesn't appear that forward thinking to me. And yes I know the argument "most systems of today are based on 70s thinking", sure UNIX was ahead of it's time- even more so than AmigaOS; But what many totally ignore is the number of reversions and irritations it went through- UNIX today isn't backward compatible with UNIX in the 70s; It moved on- adopted new ideas dropped legacy support etc. that's why it's alive and kicking today. Not to forget that it's prove of how well designed the system was. And that's what I think it the big failure with most Amiga projects, they try so badly to retain back compability that they get stuck in the same trap over and over again.

Such projects are for retrocomputing fans, and in fact their main goal is to reproduce the feeling of old Amigas as closely as possible, rather than trying to advance the platform (Minimig and Clone-A), or they add functionalities to the old systems for fun, no matter if the resulting hw still isn't comparable to modern systems (Natami).

Quote:

Then there are othersystems that partially dropped back compability- support for the custom chipset... And that makes me wonder, Wasn't the custom chipset that made Amiga different and good? And that most computers picked up these days- you won't find a modern computer that don't have alot of hardware to unload the CPU.

It was indeed, but not only. What was also special of the Amiga was the hardware banging and creative workarounds of the machine's limits. The newest machine don't offer custom chips, but have the possibility of hw banging, a sort of trade off. Not that it would be impossible to use e.g. the GPU as a custom chipset in such machines :)

Quote:

Why on earth do you save the most flawed part of the amiga (the OS) that's basically impossible to bring uptodate,

Why do you think it's flawed? I like AmigaOS a lot, more than other mainstream OSes.

Quote:

I think AROS is moving a generally better direction here more than other projects. Doesn't it do what you all dreamed of- allow you to run an amiga like OS on modern hardware?

No. Some people here are, but I'm not interested in just the OS.

Varthall

_________________
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: AROS doesn't drop anything, that's the problem. It's still backward compatible (at source level) with the old AmigaOS. So it has the same limitations. No memory protection, no resource tracking, and so on...

AROS drops custom chipset support (or emulation) and 68k code compatibility. Anubis makes another step ahead by dropping other compatibility features, although at a price (by having a Linux substrate).

Quote:

MorphOS took the good approach neither AROS nor OS4 choosed: a sandbox. Only problem is that they are focusing on the AmigaOS one instead of designing and improving a new modern one... So again, focus is put on the *past* with the same limitations. OS4 and AROS will have to go to this approach if they want to mordenize the OS and keep compatibility with the new wave of software they created (AROS and OS4 one respectively).

I agree, and I believe this is already being considered. But we have to make one step by another...

Varthall

_________________
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

They are gamers consoles not desktops so AmigaOS is not an a Game to be ported
PS3(sony)
Wii(nintendo)
xbox()
MacPPC(also Not on a Mac`s outdated PPC HW or basicly NO PPC)
ARM (pricey=not Fast for amiga=in way its bit like = sam)
Phones(no way - no room - just wrong move -not yet -)
x86-(nearly every house got couple of them so ony option to GROW again )

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=29177&forum=2&start=460&viewmode=flat&order=0#501671

Why everyone here try`ing to pull amigaOS`es leg & why dont we first find AmigaOS a Home where AmigaOS lives.

_________________
http://aros-exec.org/

http://serk118.blogspot.com/

@Varthall

Quote:

Such projects are for retrocomputing fans, and in fact their main goal is to reproduce the feeling of old Amigas as closely as possible, rather than trying to advance the platform (Minimig and Clone-A), or they add functionalities to the old systems for fun, no matter if the resulting hw still isn't comparable to modern systems (Natami).

I don't talk about Natami, minimig etc here- I'm talking about the OS projects.
Natami is clearly a hobby system, that I'm sure can be very fun.

Quote:

It was indeed, but not only. What was also special of the Amiga was the hardware banging and creative workarounds of the machine's limits. The newest machine don't offer custom chips, but have the possibility of hw banging, a sort of trade off. Not that it would be impossible to use e.g. the GPU as a custom chipset in such machines :)

HW banging is certainly not impossible on any platform, it's highly unrecommended though as it's the main reason you have to maintain old ass compatibility for years to come.

I give you the point about creative workarounds- the Amiga excelled here, but once again it's all to do with the custom chipset.

Today the best equivalent is GPU exploitation (exploitation in the sense of finding ways to use it rather than override security measurements)

But the wholetime it's basically been about clever algorithms, and no platform prevents that.

Quote:

Why do you think it's flawed? I like AmigaOS a lot, more than other mainstream OSes.

Because of the point you mention above, it allows for far too much hacks. It's exactly the same reason Apple struggled with the classic MacOS (and still Apple begun actively warn about banging the hardware long before they even designed the PPC and it's hardware)

It also had similar problems with "IPC"- people just passed around pointers assuming read/write access.

Carbon however could have taken the Classic OS into the modern age, it was very similar to the original API- but not compatible. But it was threadsafe (now that's the only thing I actually can think of that AmigaOS had that MacOS lacked, significant parts of the system was not reenternant so preemptive multitasking was really difficult. Especially on the PPC), memory protection safe etc
The classic API had resource tracking from day one, it had some memory management; (handles instead of pointers- to allow for defragmentation of memory at runtime.)
It did however retain memory zones, which was inconvinient (having to specify the max/min amount of memory the app was allowed to use.)
This was some reasons; I don't remember all of them though but those I do know are - the resource source tracking used it- but yes it could have worked in a better way.
Another reason- it allowed for some memory protection. I think Apple called it guard pages- some pages was write protected before and after the memory zone (and stack) allocated to the app. but indeed it's close to useless, but it was atleast something...
It also had virtual memory since the first macs since the early 90s.

But regarding Carbon anyway... it was an after construction; by the time it appeared apple already worked on Rhapsody for a while, I even think they changed it's name to MacOS X by that time. And it was only implemented by demand from adobe etc.
Apple had no initial intention to keep BC at that level.

The rest was handled in the sandbox approach.

And yes I'm aware that many of you hate Apple, and think whatever they do is bad.
But there is no other company that successfully switched architectures so transparent;

And then I'm talking about both the processor architecture and system architecture, because MacOS X has absolutely nothing (well except Carbon) to do with the Classic MacOS- still Carbon binaries for example run happily on both systems.

Anyway my point is, some systems just aren't worth trying to extend because they're fundamentally broken with modern features.