@Hyperionmp

Hi,

i don't know who you are. I met Evert at one of PA (2007 maybe) and i think he is a nice person (simpatico in italian). I think also that the other hyperion guys are nice person. I trust hyperion for the work hyperion have done in the past till now, so i would expect really new exciting developement for Amiga. To tell the truth, i'm a little discouraged, (many of my avatars recite: stop with amiga!!!) don't know why. Maybe it's related to the long awaited Amiga rebirth (as an amigan you should know).
Quote:

"With respect to the project (which is proceeding nicely), few real Amiga fans will be disappointed, quite the contrary."

So, if i don't ask to much, please, surprise me, and surprise all the other amigans. The true amigans will support you even the project turn to be worse than expected.

Ciao
AB

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 27-Jul-2009 at 11:08 AM.
Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 27-Jul-2009 at 11:07 AM.

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retired

@jkirk

Quote:

jkirk wrote: @Frek Quote: Frek wrote: @jkirk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Win32 "One of the largest changes the Windows API underwent was the transition from Win16 (shipped in Windows 3.1 and older) to Win32 (Windows NT and Windows 95 and up)." the api not windows or compatibility. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Microsoft_Windows Quote: After Windows 3.11, Microsoft began to develop a new consumer oriented version of the operating system code-named Chicago. Chicago was designed to have support for 32-bit preemptive multitasking like OS/2 and Windows NT, although a 16-bit kernel would remain for the sake of backward compatibility. The Win32 API first introduced with Windows NT was adopted as the standard 32-bit programming interface, with Win16 compatibility being preserved through a technique known as "thunking". A new GUI was not originally planned as part of the release, although elements of the Cairo user interface were borrowed and added as other aspects of the release (notably Plug and Play) slipped. Microsoft did not change all of the Windows code to 32-bit; parts of it remained 16-bit (albeit not directly using real mode) for reasons of compatibility, performance, and development time. Additionally it was necessary to carry over design decisions from earlier versions of Windows for reasons of backwards compatibility, even if these design decisions no longer matched a more modern computing environment. These factors eventually began to impact the operating system's efficiency and stability. also Quote: Windows XP uses the Windows NT 5.1 kernel, marking the entrance of the Windows NT core to the consumer market, to replace the aging 16/32-bit branch.

The architecture that the NTVDM uses to run mixed 16 and 32 bit apps could potentially be used to implement a useful level of memory protection in AmigaOS. This site describes the main jist of it: basically, each win32 application gets its own separate address space, and all win16 applications share one address space, like this:



Now in that diagram, mentally replace "wowexec.exe" with "modified Petunia that can host more than one process", "win16" with "classic 68K" and "win32" with "native PPC". Since m68k programs have a different file format than PPC programs, it's trivial to segregate both kinds of application at load time. All classic programs would run in one shared address space, where they can share memory and could crash each other but wouldn't be able to corrupt the OS or memory owned by PPC programs, and all PPC programs would live in their own address space, where they're protected from each other. Now the question is, is Hyperion's secret project an "AOSVDM"? I know that would make a lot of amigas happy, and would also spark the kind of heated discussions that Petunia vs Trance did. It all fits so nicely...

(disclaimer: I have no idea what Hyperion are doing. I'm bored so pulled this out of thin air)

Last edited by CodeSmith on 27-Jul-2009 at 12:36 AM.
Last edited by CodeSmith on 27-Jul-2009 at 12:33 AM.
Last edited by CodeSmith on 27-Jul-2009 at 12:27 AM.
Last edited by CodeSmith on 27-Jul-2009 at 12:21 AM.

@CodeSmith

Quote:

The one thing that could sink the ship is that NTVDM relies heavily on a feature of x86 CPUs called v86 mode. Since PowerPC CPUs don't have a "v68 mode", I don't know how feasible it would be to implement an "AOSVDM"

I don't see how that would make a difference as similar things are done on many OSes.

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@Zardoz

I just realized that it doesn't matter, Petunia would take care of it. I was amending my post when you replied.

@CodeSmith : Problem is that you can't ;)

Since OS4 apps also have shared memory with other OS4 apps, as well as with 68k apps.

You cannot do that because the new apps introduced in OS4 are not ready for that. And that's the problem...

If OS4 apps were using their own address space, much like win32 apps it would have been possible. But it's not :)

Nice try though ;)

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo

As I said, I have no idea what I'm talking about

@Frek

Quote:

Frek wrote: @jkirk We've been talking API the whole time, Read my posts instead of guess. for that matter version of Windows is highly irrelevant.

you are right i did let you pull me into an api conversation but my original point that you responded to was that the os wasn't re-written whole hog due to financial/compatibility/time reasons.

also the api is not the whole os just a means to access it.

see here http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=29177&forum=2&start=540&viewmode=flat&order=0#501817

Last edited by jkirk on 27-Jul-2009 at 10:47 AM.
Last edited by jkirk on 27-Jul-2009 at 10:46 AM.

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Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

@CodeSmith

Quote:

As I said, I have no idea what I'm talking about

Rest assured that you're not the only one here, but hey, that makes this site so wonderous and entertaining! Keep on going.

OldFart

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More then three levels of indigestion and you're scroomed!

@Leo

Quote:

Since OS4 apps also have shared memory with other OS4 apps, as well as with 68k apps.

Well, basically it would have to be a clean break, ie. 68k and current PPC apps in one box and new PPC apps in another. It should have been done with the introduction of OS4 IMHO, but oh well.

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@jkirk

Well the API is what is not ready for modern features, underlying system doesn't really matter- as if the software is properly written it will access the OS via the API- meaning aslong as the system in question implements the API it's relatively simple to make it run under that OS, no matter the system is called Windows, Linux, MacOS X or something else.

If underlying architecture differs you may have to recompile the code, that can be done either at source level- or by at runtime translate the binary code from one processor to another. (does that ring any bells? :)

Quote:

It should have been done with the introduction of OS4 IMHO, but oh well.

Of course... well ? well we now have to wait another 7 years... who cares ?

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Frek

Quote:

Frek wrote: @jkirk Well the API is what is not ready for modern features, underlying system doesn't really matter- as if the software is properly written it will access the OS via the API- meaning aslong as the system in question implements the API it's relatively simple to make it run under that OS, no matter the system is called Windows, Linux, MacOS X or something else. If underlying architecture differs you may have to recompile the code, that can be done either at source level- or by at runtime translate the binary code from one processor to another. (does that ring any bells? :)

i understand that. however this version was a translation to new hardware as is. future versions we will see changes to the os to make it more modern. this is a first step. the api changes will come later after all we have over 10 years gap we have to make up for.

if they had made all changes up front we still would be waiting for a release.

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Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

@Leo

POPCORN! POPCORN! Get your POPCORN Here!!!!

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No cause is lost if there is but one fool left to fight for it.

@jkirk

I don't know, but I think they'll have to rewrite major parts of the system to introduce a new API that provides such features. My understanding is that the system is flawed down to the bottom layer with shared structures, etc.

MorphOS was on the right track- but so far it seems it's nothing more than a name... (but anyway; that's what I said earlier Apple are the only ones implementing it afaik) isolate the "old environment" in a sandbox, basically moving the entire thing up one level in the abstraction layer.

But then again, what's the point? They could just make it an application and have linux underneat (similary how AROS can run on PPC Linux).

--

Edit: I'm ofcourse refering to "Abox" in the statement about MorphOS above.

Last edited by Frek on 27-Jul-2009 at 01:31 PM.

@Frek

Quote:

I don't know, but I think they'll have to rewrite major parts of the system to introduce a new API that provides such features. My understanding is that the system is flawed down to the bottom layer with shared structures, etc.

this is true there will have to be alot of rewrites to get modern features in. i count os4 as a first step to a modern os.

Quote:

But then again, what's the point? They could just make it an application and have linux underneat (similary how AROS can run on PPC Linux).

true but then it wouldn't be an os.

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Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

@Hyperionmp

I know that Hyperion will reveal all the secret information at the right time. Do not want any hints, but could You tell what do You mean by a “real Amigans that will be disappointed”? Who exactly can be disappointed:
- the ones that want to have a new incarnation of a “custom chip” Amiga architecture?
- the ones that want to have a powerful six-core-sata3-ddr4-16gb machine?
- the ones that are currently developing Amiga software/brand?
- the ones that want to have a bit-newer hardware for AmigaOS?
- the ones that don’t want Amiga Inc. to be involved?

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Maybe Hyperion are working on a 'clean room' AmigaOS4, that doesn't touch Amiga Inc's IP and will be named HyperOS.

Or Hyperion is working on new Amiga like APIs, that doesn't use shared structures. That would enable AmigaOS using full memory protection and SMP when the old API will be discarded.

Or have generated an PPC-Linux hosted AmigaOS system so the system might be enabled for PPC-Macs and IBM workstations.

Or they have had an contract for making an AMD64 BIOS bootselector that used some AOS4 features for a colorful GUI.

Last edited by Arko on 27-Jul-2009 at 02:51 PM.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Arko

I don't think they'll be any "Better than OSX", statements in the near future even from the crazy press release generating Amiga Inc marketing machine OSX Snow Leopard looks great and they are actively trying to reduce inefficiency and bloatware. This means it will be more responsive and closer to the ideals of AmigaOS. I've a good mind to bite the bullet buy a 'Intel Mac' (second hand of course - new Macs are rip-off) in readiness and stop waiting for AmigaOS on my iBook PPC ;-(. Hyperion suck in their decisions of what machines there choosing to port to. Sam is too expensive and seems to operate a one step forward, two steps back approach to CPU development (by that I mean overclocking ). Hyperion are living on borrowed time and unless I can actually try OS4.1, I am losing interest fast! WHY SHOULD I BUY A SAM & OS4.1? If no one can answer that I'll buy a new(ish) Mac for sure!

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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Last edited by Tomppeli on 29-Jul-2009 at 11:10 PM.

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Rock lobster bit me. My Workbench has always preferences. X1000 + AmigaOS4.1 FE
"Anyone can build a fast CPU. The trick is to build a fast system." -Seymour Cray

@Tomppeli

Quote:

Because you're an Amigan ?!

I feel like I'd be paying £700+ for the privilege of becoming a beta tester for Hyperion!!! I'd rather spend £350 on a second hand Mac that lets me use cutting edge programs that I otherwise would not be able to use!!!

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios